Nethergate Resurrection - Roman Singleton (some spoilers)

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AuthorTopic: Nethergate Resurrection - Roman Singleton (some spoilers)
Law Bringer
Member # 6785
Profile #0
I started playing a singleton game as a Roman in torment. It's slow going and I've restarted and replayed parts trying out different ideas.

The starting character has some druid abilities -
druidism - 2, health circle - 1, war circle - 2

This means I can save money on potions and protection spell significantly reduces damage in the Abandoned Mine through the Ruined Hall. After this point you run into monsters that can get enough damage through to make a different approach necessary.

Basic stats are - strength - 2, dexterity - 2, intelligence - 1, and endurance -2.

The rest are luck - 2 for dropped items and Roman training.

Character traits are strong back and fast on feet for 15% XP penatly.

I sold my javelins to buy a leather sling from Julius (east of SV Fort). This reduces weight and cuts down on replacement costs.

Then it's off to kill goblins and rats. A lot of creep up until I have one in sight then back off until only one is at the edge for slinging. If you avoid getting swarmed it's not too bad. Using protection and blessing before the fight speeds things up.

I'm buying herbcraft to make my own potions and tool use from the trainer. Skill points go to raising endurance to 4, Roman training to 10, melee weapons to 2 for extra damage, and druidism to 4 to raise rune reading for more potion recipes.

With a lot of tedious work I made it through the Ruined Hall. Killing the sidhe was the high point.

Anyone else can post ideas on how to play a Roman singleton. The Celtic version will be different because of extra spell abilities.
Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00
Law Bringer
Member # 6489
Profile Homepage #1
My Roman singleton was a freaking tank by the end of the game. The polished plate mail in the Hall of the Lamp and the Fury Helm in Galag-Trav are very helpful.

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"You're drinking liquor because you're thirsty? How nasty is your freaking water?" —Lazarus
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Posts: 1556 | Registered: Sunday, November 20 2005 08:00
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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Strength provides triple the effect of the weapon skills (including Roman Training). (I think. I'm not 100% sure about this since I can only test with averages, but all my testing suggests it.) High strength also allows you to completely ignore Tool Use (and Pass Portal) which is great for a singleton. And it also increases your carrying capacity. I actually found that, after the very beginning of the game, I ran out of item slots far more often than I ran out of weight capacity.

Unlike in older games, Fast on Feet provides the exact same effect as AP boosting items -- they all give a chance (25%? not sure) of an extra AP. But they all stack. That makes FOF useful even in conjunction with speed items, and it's still super useful without them.

The Widow Queen drops an Obsidian Spear. Kill her early (after giving her the amber for the Boots of Apollo, and getting her advice for the GIFTS).

Hero of Old costs too much MP for a light magic user to plan on using, so don't.

With just 1 PC, you can choose to use combat mode and walkabout mode strategically. In Normal, most enemies should die in 1 to 2 hits if you're properly equipped and trained, so against non-ranged enemies, often walkabout mode makes battles simple.

High resistance to an element can block nearly all damage from that element. These are also hard to get. Putting points into Luck and Roman Training can be useful simply to boost resistances.

Items will eventually be outdone by your natural capabilities, but not for a long time. Wands of Ice are useful early on, and Wands of Fire and Void Crystals are great through most of the game, as are Call Hunt and Call Spirit scrolls. Potions are obviously all useful. Save Ambrosia and Heroic Brew for when you really need it.

Basilisks SUCK, A LOT, and crystal gear doesn't seem to make much difference. If you can't sneak up on them and there are multiple basilisks, be prepared for gross amounts of reloading.

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Law Bringer
Member # 6785
Profile #3
Crystal gear is almost useless against basilisks since it only provides 80% resistance. The best thing is to charm beast the closest one and go after the others with missle weapons. I did get the one in the Crone's Cavern after several reloads with haste, bless, and protection.

I still prefer to use tool use since you can buy it and not strength. Jeff reduced in half the extra damage from Roman training and weapons skills early on in beta testing to keep damage from getting ridiculous. The highest difficulty normal door is 18 and tool use 8 will get you through the trapped chests. There is a difficulty 200 door in the Spire of Ages.

Mostly I need money to buy beast circle and then do the Hagfen quest for the beast circle scroll. Charm beast and call beast work great in torment. You can attack a charmed beast with immunity and summoned creatures make great shields.

I need to save invulnerabilty potions for the major fights where I need time to cast spells to provide shields and charms. There are a limit on the best potions since I can't get craft elixir without delaying the beast circle spells and killing a god.

Defense is almost useless since it doesn't help against spells and most things will have a small chance of hitting.
Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00
Law Bringer
Member # 6785
Profile #4
Update -

I punched through the Celtic tribesmen blocking the bridge northeast of the Ruined Hall. Then it was easy picking in the Goblin Pits and Galag-Trav.

After I reached level 16, I cleared the bridge to the Hollow Hills.

In Hagfen, you could only buy 1 level each of beast and craft circles. This means I really need to do the Selkie quest and then the Hagfen ones for charm beast spell.

This is much harder than I expected.
Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #5
Romans can only do one Hagfen quest, now.

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Law Bringer
Member # 6785
Profile #6
I think I'm going to start over with less Roman training and more strength. It takes too long to finish fights and without being able to charm beasts for a long time it gets much harder.

The next area I have to do is under Hagfen and the fomorians will use up more potions than I have. Then I would have to fight my way out of SelkieHome with the caraytids blocking the exit.
Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00
Shaper
Member # 6292
Profile #7
How's this game doing, Random?

-S-

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A4 ItemsA4 SingletonG4 ItemsG4 ForgingG4 Infiltrator NR Items The Lonely Celt
Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 6785
Profile #8
I'm in the Ruined Hall. I don't know if the trade off of strength for Roman Training is enough. After I get 3 more levels to get my battle and health circles to 4, I'm putting more into Roman training as a cheaper way of upping damage.

The biggest problem from my old game was dealing with wind warriors because they slow and getting swarmed by too many monsters until I have better armor. Kharto was too much because of the damage I was taking.

I think this time I will go for herbcraft to make healing elixirs so I can afford to take more damage and still be able to fight. Getting by with spells and healing draughts fails in the big fights.
Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #9
Hint: Slow has no effect if you aren't in combat mode.

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Law Bringer
Member # 6785
Profile #10
Started a new game with fast on feet and toughness instead for traits. Druidism helps in the beginning to reduce damage.

I just killed the Abandoned Mines dragon, cleared the Celtic tribesmen that blocked the bridge northeast of the Ruined Hall, and the fomorians on the bridge to the Hollow Hills. The fights with the dragon and Dolojan had to be redone so I could get the deathblow and experience. Having summoning scrolls helped keep me from being a target in all these battles.

Currently at strength 6, dexterity 2, intelligence 1, endurance 3, armor use 4, hardiness 4, Roman training 7, druidism 4, battle and health circles 4, herbcraft 5, tool use 7, and luck 2. I'm wearing bless chain mail, spidersilk cloak, dexterity +2 bracelet, quicksilver ring, aspskin gloves, boots, fury helm. Tool use has gotten me all the trapped boxes except I haven't got past 15 difficulty doors yet. A little more experience and I'll have tool use 8.

I'm off to see the Lands of the Fae for my good reward and then to loot the Goblin Pits and Galag-Trav.
Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00
Shaper
Member # 247
Profile Homepage #11
I don't think it matters who delivers the deathblow. The exp should be distributed evenly.

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The Knight Between Posts.
Posts: 2395 | Registered: Friday, November 2 2001 08:00
Shaper
Member # 6292
Profile #12
I think you get no points if a summons kills something for you. I thought I had determined that and have also been operating on that assumption. I guess this would be good to determine for sure.

...

So, I'm starting my Roman singleton on Torment. I have dubbed him Maximus. He is going to try to be all he can be. I used PC 4, Aurelus, because he has 2 Barter and only 3 SP less than the highest PC who has no special abilities at all. 2 Barter is worth 3 SP to me. He is Fast on Feet and a Mighty Warrior. I gave him:

5 Strength, 2 Dexterity, 1 Intelligence, 2 Endurance, 2 Armor Use, 2 Druidism, 2 Health Circle, 2 War Circle...and that's it. 1 SP left over. I'll bring Armor Use up to 4 and add some Roman Training and buy him Tool Use up to 6.

I was curious what opening builds have looked like for Random, Slarty, and others running Roman singletons now. Are you giving him the minimal bit of spell ability like I did? The first two spells of these two circles seem pretty important to have, or it will be a long, slow, miserable game with much running away. I was tempted to make a non-magically purist Roman, but soon realized what a drag that would be to play.

-S-

[ Sunday, June 03, 2007 14:47: Message edited by: Synergy ]

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A4 ItemsA4 SingletonG4 ItemsG4 ForgingG4 Infiltrator NR Items The Lonely Celt
Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00
His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
Profile #13
quote:
Originally written by Synergy:

I think you get no points if a summons kills something for you. I thought I had determined that and have also been operating on that assumption. I guess this would be good to determine for sure.

...

So, I'm starting my Roman singleton on Torment. I have dubbed him Maximus. He is going to try to be all he can be. I used PC 4, Aurelus, because he has 2 Barter and only 3 SP less than the highest PC who has no special abilities at all. 2 Barter is worth 3 SP to me. I gave him:

5 Strength, 2 Dexterity, 1 Intelligence, 2 Endurance, 2 Armor Use, 2 Druidism, 2 Health Circle, 2 War Circle...and that's it. 1 SP left over. I'll bring Armor Use up to 4 and add some Roman Training and train in Tool Use up to 6.

I was curious what opening builds have looked like for Random, Slarty, and others running Roman singletons now. Are you giving him the minor bit of spell ability like I did? The first two spells of these two circles seem pretty important to have, or it will be a long, slow, miserable game with much running away. I was tempted to make a non-magically purist Roman, but soon realized what a drag that would be to play.

-S-

A superstitious Roman that refuses to believe in magic. Oh my. No rod of decent!

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If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish.

Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish.
Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00
Shaper
Member # 6292
Profile #14
Yeah, forget that!

Some powergaming tips for beginning as Romans:

Do not spend any initial skill points on Tool Use or Woodscraft. You can buy them in Shadow Valley Fort.

Do give yourself at least one PC with two levels each of Health Circle and War Circle. These four basic spells are very useful and time-saving. It only takes 1 point of essence to cast Minor Heal. Protection is hugely protective earlier on in the game. Use it often.

Do steal everything safely out of sight in Shadow Valley Fort. Also steal the two Iron Spears in the guard houses, the Iron Shield, and either the bar of Tin from the smithee or Healing Herbs from the Healer as well. You can make four visible thefts safely in the fort.

Buy the Sling from Julius to the east of the fort and use it instead of javelins.

I'm off to kill rats 'n' Goblins.

-S-

ADDIT: Sheesh, man, what did that Goblin Shaman take to kill just now...about 8-10 hits of my sword, though granted, I wasn't Blessed.

If you position yourself at the furthest possible range, some Goblins will just stand there while you stone them to death.

The Goblin Chief took about 8-10 hits to go down, Blessed. With Shielding, I stood there and took him out unhasted, and he never hit me once! Killing him gave me my third level up. I've been buying Luck and Armor Use

[ Sunday, June 03, 2007 16:29: Message edited by: Synergy ]

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A4 ItemsA4 SingletonG4 ItemsG4 ForgingG4 Infiltrator NR Items The Lonely Celt
Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00
His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
Profile #15
Wait... I can't remember, but can you use first aid on your self? If so, a very attractive option for a singleton.

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If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish.

Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish.
Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #16
My initial build looked like this:

5 Strength
6 Armor Use
5 Roman Training
2 Luck
Fast on Feet
Mighty Warrior

Strength is to carry stuff, kill stuff, and bash down the very common 10 strength doors. Armor Use is to stay alive. Roman Training is to kill stuff especially with slings. Both are cheap. And Luck is Luck. I like Toughness, but in the end its protection is cheaper to duplicate with Armor Use and Toughness than Mighty Warrior's bonus is with offensive skills. Fast on Feet is essential to surviving many fights, especially outdoor encounters.

I found the first dungeon to be quite doable without magic. Geneforge Agent style sniping tactics can get you through nearly all the goblins and rats, though I had to save the wights and drake for later. The Ruined Hall was harder, especially Dolojan. Dolojan sucked. I reloaded a lot to avoid blowing too many summoning scrolls.

The reason to postpone magic is that the first few levels of high cost skills get you BY FAR the most bang for your buck at traders. (Money cost always increases 1x, 2x, 3x, ..., whereas skill point cost increase 3, 3, 4, 4, and so on.) So as much of a hassle as it is getting to Hagfen without magic, it's a hassle that's worthwhile. Those extra skill points add up -- 2 each in Druidism, Health and War is 18 skill points!

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Law Bringer
Member # 6785
Profile #17
My initial build was using the second character for maximum skill points. Strength 3 (so I could get at that rat), dexterity 2, intelligence 1, endurance 3 (careless click, but I was going to do it later), Roman training 4, druidism 2, health circle 1, battle circle 2, luck 2.

I bought herbcraft 1, hardiness 2, and tool use as I got money.

You can get by without cure venom if you buy some herbcraft to increase poison resistance.

When fighting goblin shamans, their lance of fire attack (missle) is worse than their melee attack.

I definitely saw no experience if a summoned creature does the deathblow.

[ Sunday, June 03, 2007 19:44: Message edited by: Randomizer ]
Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00
Shaper
Member # 6292
Profile #18
I finished the mine, all but the dragon and the drop. I've got the retreat and sling routine down well enough, but it has been a real grind. Melee sucks and takes forever. You can't sling more than three times before being forced to go head to head, and it happens a lot. Lizards are nasty with the triple attack. I am still tinkering with initial builds before I commit to a whole game like this. In fact, I am tempted to try something radical and non-intuitive next, out of curiosity.

Roman singleton may be a challenge, but it is any fun? Tyranicus, what difficulty setting did you play your Roman singleton on? Massive hit points does not make for much fun, and this is like a game in which every other critter is a boss. I wish SW would create a way for increased difficulty to include extra monsters and maybe with more action points, not merely more hit points.

-S-

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A4 ItemsA4 SingletonG4 ItemsG4 ForgingG4 Infiltrator NR Items The Lonely Celt
Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00
Shaper
Member # 247
Profile Homepage #19
I found javelins to pretty much useless. During my first game with the standard Roman party of four I decided to have two javelin wielding characters. They were useful in that they could attack at a distance, but I never got more damage than 70ish out of them. There is a serious lack of good javelins. I mean you get the blessed long-sword, which is good for the rest of the game. But with javelins there really is nothing beyond the standard type.

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The Knight Between Posts.
Posts: 2395 | Registered: Friday, November 2 2001 08:00
Shaper
Member # 6292
Profile #20
So, Slarty, explain something to me. With no shielding or healing ability, when you face a Goblin Shaman, what do you do? If you try to sling him, he fireballs you. If you go face to face, without shielding, he kicks your butt in melee before you kick his. How do you kill 'em without using potions, which is a very bad rate of attrition on the goods, if so.

-S-

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A4 ItemsA4 SingletonG4 ItemsG4 ForgingG4 Infiltrator NR Items The Lonely Celt
Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 6489
Profile Homepage #21
quote:
Originally written by Synergy:

Tyranicus, what difficulty setting did you play your Roman singleton on?
Normal

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"You're drinking liquor because you're thirsty? How nasty is your freaking water?" —Lazarus
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Posts: 1556 | Registered: Sunday, November 20 2005 08:00
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #22
There are a few pieces of flame-resistant gear early in the mines. Those plus RT + Luck make his flame lance a joke. The shaman on the first floor is tough and will require a potion or two, but after that you have better gear and have gained more levels.

Without magic some of the tougher individual enemies DO require using potions.

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #23
That said, I did some more practical testing. I took a Roman, levelled him up and gave him all the best pieces of armor (using the editor). Average percentage of damage blocked (and these were fairly consistent) were:

63% - 0 Armor Use
81% - 10 Armor Use
86% - 20 Armor Use

I also tested Protection and found something interesting: the percentage of damage blocked does not change at all with Protection, but the damage (both damage taken and damage blocked) DOES change. It appears that Protection just lowers that number by a set amount rather than a percent. That explains why it can block all damage against Normal goblins but is barely noticeable against even midgame enemies on Torment.

Anyway, I'm no longer sure this character can do well. Even blocking 86% of damage is not enough against many enemies. When a hit does 150 damage before armor you'll still take 20 damage... which is fine if the enemy is alone, but if you're fighting a group, you'll die in one turn; or, if you pumped Endurance, you'll die in several, since you can't heal much in one turn while still attacking. Since you can't kill things quickly in Torment either, I think the use of summons and charms becomes a complete and total necessity. It's simply the only way to survive, outside of the 4 game-breaking potions.

And that means a Celt will be much better off. Eventually a Celt will take an extra third or so of damage over a Roman, but the 48% and 52% armors that Celts can't use aren't easily available anyway. And better charms and summons easily make up for that, I think.

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Law Bringer
Member # 6785
Profile #24
I don't know if Jeff changed it, but in Castle Aethdoc you have Dhorus doing two hits of about 300 damage so even around 80% blocked you take two hits of 60 plus his faery friends. There are also Reptrakos, the Ifrit, and a few others that do massive damage.

This is why you have to save and buy summoning scrolls as a Roman to have shields.

Thanks for the explanation on protection. I wondered why it was so less helpful by the time I finished the demo area.
Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00

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