Slartanalysis: Creations I

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AuthorTopic: Slartanalysis: Creations I
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #0
Here's some useful data on all the creation types. This first table is arranged by shaping type:
Cost +2 LV HP SP Melee (x4) Missile Spcl
Skill FX Mult. Skill Base Acc. Type FX
Fyora 8 11 2 25 20 sed2 3 4 4 75 Fire
Cryoa 25 32 7 25 400 2 6 0 15 80 Ice Stun
Roamer 28 35 10 25 250 2 4 2 8 70 Mag Acid
Pyroroamer 15 20 4 2 250 2 -- --
Drayk 60 75 24 60 0 8 9 2 25 75 Phys
Cryodrayk 90 111 28 60 0 8 6 8 15 80 Ice Stun
Kyshakk 125 152 25 400 500 2 10 2 20 70 Mag Elec
Burning K. 160 195 28 100 500 2 10 10 20 70 Mag Elec
Drakon 183 222 32 300 500 13 9 13 25 75 Phys
Ur-Drakon 220 267 35 300 500 20 10 20 40 75 Phys Slow Str

Thahd 12 17 4 60 0 3 -- --
Unstable T. 25 37 12 0 0 -- --
Clawbug 30 39 10 35 0 4 Pois -- --
Plated C. 50 63 16 10 0 0 -- -- AP
B. Alpha 55 68 20 60 0 9 -- -- Str
B. Beta 80 99 26 60 0 9 -- -- Str
Rotghroth 125 152 28 250 0 19 Acid -- -- q,P
Corrupted R. 160 181 37 100 0 23 Acid -- -- q,P
War Trall 175 212 32 300 0 2 8 2 15 70 Phys
Shock Trall 230 279 33 50 0 2 8 2 15 70 Phys AP

Artila 12 17 4 10 100 2 4 4 8 70 Mag Acid
Plated A. 40 51 12 40 100 2 4 0 8 70 Mag Acid
Vlish 32 41 12 25 100 4 Pois 5 3 8 70 Mag Conf
Charged V. 75 92 12 0 100 4 Pois 5 3 8 70 Mag Slow
Glaahk 60 75 20 40 0 10 Stun -- --
Ur-Glaahk 80 99 30 40 0 10 Stun -- --
Wingbolt 125 152 28 75 600 2 Pois 10 8 40 100 Mag
Unstable W. 140 171 28 75 600 2 Pois 3 20 4 75 Fire AP
Gazer 180 219 32 180 500 10 Stu+ 10 10 40 100 Mag P,L
Eyebeast 240 291 38 300 500 10 Fea+ 10 1 20 Auto Fire P,L
Again, some conclusions may be off, especially regarding the unstable varieties I haven't played with, but the data is solid.

HP and SP refer to Health and Energy bonuses. All creations get a lot of points in both based on their ability scores and levels.

I decided to go through and calculate out average damage as I did for G3. The following table calculates it at three levels. One, at +1 for a fresh creation with minimal shaping skill. One, at +13 for a fresh creation at high skill (the 10-cap makes 13 a likely place to end up at). Finally, one at +33 levels to represent a creation that tags along with you for some time. Presumably, the top tier creations won't be around that long and a Fyora could easily gain 30 levels for a total of +43, but this should make a useful approximation. I did out averages for both melee and missile attacks. Also, it assumes resistance of 0%, which may not accurately reflect prevalent creation resistances for different attack types.

Cost +2 LV Melee Missile Spcl
Lv +1 Lv +13 Lv+33 Lv +1 Lv +13 Lv +33

Fyora 8 11 2 13 28 53 14 26 46 (Fire)
Artila 12 17 4 15 30 55 22 37 62 (Acid)
Plated A. 40 51 12 25 40 65 22 37 62 (Acid)
Roamer 28 35 10 23 38 63 24 39 64 (Acid)
Cryoa 25 32 7 18 33 58 22 43 78 (Ice) (Stun)
Vlish 32 41 12 30 45 70 34 52 82 (Mag) (Conf) (Pois Touch)
Charged V. 75 92 12 30 45 70 34 52 82 (Mag) (Slow) (Pois Touch)

Cryodrayk 90 111 28 60 75 100 78 99 134 (Ice) (Stun)
War Trall 175 212 32 50 65 90 73 100 145 (Phys)
Drayk 60 75 24 55 70 95 88 118 168 (Phys)
Kyshakk 125 152 25 40 55 80 93 126 181 (Mag) (Elec)
Unstable W. 140 171 28 45 60 85 72 84 104 (Fire) (12 AP)
Wingbolt 125 152 28 45 60 85 147 180 235 (Mag) (Pois Touch)
Burning K. 160 195 28 45 60 85 148 181 236 (Mag) (Elec)
Drakon 183 222 32 78 93 118 163 193 243 (Phys)
Gazer 180 219 32 107 128 163 169 202 257 (Mag) (Stun Touch)
Shock Trall 230 279 33 50 65 90 73 100 145 (Phys) (12 AP)
Ur-Drakon 220 267 35 98 113 138 229 262 317 (Phys) (Slow)

Eyebeast 240 291 38 93 111 141 126 161 216 (Fire - All) (Fear Touch)

Pyroroamer 15 20 4 15 30 55 -- -- --
Thahd 12 17 4 18 33 58 -- -- --
Plated C. 50 63 16 25 40 65 -- -- -- (Pois Touch) (10 AP)
Unstable T. 25 37 12 28 43 68 -- -- --
Clawbug 30 39 10 28 43 68 -- -- -- (Pois Touch)
B. Alpha 55 68 20 53 68 93 -- -- --
Glaahk 60 75 20 55 70 95 -- -- -- (Stun Touch)
B. Beta 80 99 26 60 55 100 -- -- --
Ur-Glaahk 80 99 30 67 82 107 -- -- -- (Stun Touch)
Rotghroth 125 152 28 88 103 128 -- -- -- (Acid Touch) (QA)
Corrupted R. 160 181 37 108 123 148 -- -- -- (Acid Touch) (QA)
Battle creations may not be as bad as they were before, but they still suck. Horribly. The most egregious example of this is the War Trall -- the fifth-tier creation! -- which is basically a Drayk with extra HP for three times the essence cost. Ghastly. The Shock Trall is better, but still worse than the Ur-Drakon. Battle Alphas and Betas are still almost categorically worse than Glaahks and Ur-Glaahks, who in turn pale compared to Drayks. Rotghroths have about a 1 in 3 chance of getting a second strike in, making them interesting but a lot worse than Wingbolts.

Drayks, Wingbolts, Ur-Drakons, and Eyebeasts look like by FAR the best values. Of the earlier creations, Cryoas and Artilas look like the best bet. Artila and Drayks are more economical and probably available earlier than Cryoas and Wingbolts. So Fire Shaping and Magic Shaping both look like viable paths.

However, ramping up creation damage and multipliers also means that the level bonus for high shaping skill is a lot less critical. It'll get freshly made Drayks an extra 25% or so of damage and a bunch of HP, but a +1 Drayk will still do more damage than a +13 Glaahk, for the same cost in essence. So there's less need to specialize in one shaping skill. That plus the superiority of late game creations means that unlike in G3, the most powerful creations are not going to be the Vlish you take through the whole game. (Augh, my poor Vlish... so nerfed!)

That actually changes a whole lot. Suddenly, it may be more useful for shaping types to spend skill points on magic and combat abilities. And Infiltrators can utilize creations nearly as well as Lifecrafters. Alternately, a Lifecrafter might plug all their skill points into Intelligence and end up with much better armies through 100% of the game than if they had pumped shaping skills. Finally, the "disposable creations" strategy now looks much better than the "drag them along" strategy, possibly always and definitely before you get Drayks.

I think my Lifecrafter plan is now: pump Int and make Artilas, then boost Fire Shaping a little and make Drayks, throwing in a few Kyshakks for damage type variety and HP, and then Ur-Drakons for power.

[ Wednesday, November 22, 2006 09:45: Message edited by: Charged Slartile ]

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #1
Whoops. Can somebody move this to the G4 forum?

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Apprentice
Member # 7661
Profile Homepage #2
Wrong forum, heh? :D Intresting data however. I currently wish my family just had a mac in addition to this PC. :(
Posts: 25 | Registered: Monday, November 13 2006 08:00
Law Bringer
Member # 2984
Profile Homepage #3
*waves staff*

Teleport!

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Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair.
I have a love of woodwind instruments.
Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00
Shaper
Member # 6292
Profile #4
So, Slarty is explaining statistically why I've found that Lifecrafters don't seem to be a whole lot of extra creation-fashioning bang for your buck compared to an Infiltrator or Shock Trooper which are not as fragile, yet do just fine with shaping, and if they have enough intelligence, can shape some plenty deadly critters throughout the game without having to be made of glass.

You can get a cryoa quite early in the game. It is easily the most deadly critter you can have for quite a while in the first couple chapters at least, but I've brought one with me through at least four chapters. By the time I could get plated artilas, a vlish was usually better anyway. Glaaks aren't very exciting anymore since Jeff took stunning power from them. I like and get good results from cryoas, drayks, drakons, and eyebeasts. The only battle creation I’ve ever found very useful is the rotghroth.

I haven't noticed any big benefit to focusing heavily on shaping as so many other beta-testers seemed to choose to do. A minor investment in shaping with more significant investment in intelligence, battle skills and/or magic makes a powerful PC. It seemed unuseful to me to go more than five levels into one kind of shaping magic, and it’s pretty easy to do both fire and magic and have some great creations at the end. My Infiltrator had one eyebeast and two drakons at the end, and she was heavily armored, good in melee, and potent in magic. A lifecrafter always feels vulnerable the whole game.

I think Jeff worked hard to encourage more use of shaping across the classes.

-S-

[ Wednesday, November 22, 2006 10:45: Message edited by: Servile Synergy ]

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A4 ItemsA4 SingletonG4 ItemsG4 ForgingG4 Infiltrator NR Items The Lonely Celt
Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #5
My experience with my own creations is limited to Artilas, Vlish, Wingbolts, Rotghroths and Kyshakks, all of normal varieties. All were good. The Kyshakk was marginally worse than the other two tier fours, but it seemed to be pulling its weight by the end of the game. The Rotghroth really did seem useful, to the point that my fourth creation was a second Rotghroth instead of another Wingbolt. They did nowhere near the heavy damage of the Wingbolt, but a lot of things resist Magic damage very well, while few resist physical and fewer resist Acid. Plus the Rotghroths were very tough, and good at locking down enemies, and never ran out of energy.

About other creations I only know from fighting them.

Glaahks can be bad, with their stunning. I fear them more than Drayks. Battle Alphas and Betas are harmless, and since they don't resist magic at all, Wingbolts just blow them away. Late in the game enemy Battle Betas actually help you sometimes, by blocking spaces from which Rotghroths could attack you.

There aren't many Gazers or Eyebeasts in the game, and they are okay, but not terrifying by the time you get to them. Drakons are generally pretty fearsome, though most of the drakons I fought were special ones.

War Tralls are never scarey the way Wingbolts and Rotghroths and Kyshakks are. I feared Rotdhizons far more than War Tralls.
So I'd agree War Tralls suck; they'd be better as a fourth tier than fifth. Their missile attack is just lame: they throw rocks. I think they should swing massive axes for mondo melee damage. Crank that up to impressive levels, and they could be back in.

I never tried making creations much with my other PCs, though the Infiltrator killed Salassar in one of his tough phases by creating seven Fyoras and using Spine Shield. They didn't do the whole job, but they helped a lot, just by getting eaten.

[ Wednesday, November 22, 2006 11:24: Message edited by: Student of Trinity ]

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We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #6
That's a cool tactic.

I think the question of whether Lifecrafters or Infiltrators make better shapers depends on enemy attack patterns, something I don't know enough about yet. If lots of enemies target the PC, I'd want the hardier character, otherwise I'd rather have the extra essence for more and better creations.

Also, I feel the need to debunk the statement that few things resist physical damage well. Here's all the resistance data from the creature definitions, by creature type and by degree of resistance:

PHYSICAL (0)
15-35: Thahd, Serviles, Roamer Family, Vlish Family, Spawner, Turret Family, Specter Family, Glaahk Family, Kyshakk Family, War Trall Family
36-50: Shaper, Agent, Charged Thahd, Unstable Thahd, Clawbug Family, Servant Mind, Submission Turret, Warriors, Battle Alphabet, Drayk, Cryodrayk, Golem, Drakon, Ur-Drakon, Rotghroth Family, Wingbolt Family
51-65: Guardian, Pylon
66-00:

MAGICAL (1)
15-35: Vlish Family, Warriors, Pylon
36-50: Shaper, Artila, Servile Casters, Apprentice Mage, Golem, Kyshakk Family
51-65: Agent
66-00: Unstable Thahd, Charged Artila, Inferno Wyrm, Servile Power Techs, Servant Mind, Glaahk Family, Mage, Ur-Drakon, Gazer Family, Wingbolt Family

FIRE (2)
15-35: Guardian, Agent, Fyora, Spawner, Warriors, Battle Alphabet, Apprentice Mage, Cryodrayk
36-50: Shaper, Servile Casters, Mage, Gazer Family, War Trall Family
51-65:
66-00: Inferno Wyrm, Servile Techs, Redshell Clawbug, Flaming Shrub, Pylon, Drayk, Golem, Drakon, Ur-Drakon

POISON (4)
15-35:
36-50: Vlish Family
51-65:
66-00: Unstable Thahd, Servile Vat Techs, Oozing Worm, Oozing Crawler, Clawbug Family, Servant Mind, Venom Turret, Specter Family, Golem, Rotghroth Family

ACID (5)
15-35: Apprentice Mage, Pylon
36-50: Artila Family, Roamer Family, Submission Turret, Mage
51-65:
66-00: Unstable Thahd, Oozebeast, Servile Vat Techs, Oozing Worm, Oozing Crawler, Redshell Clawbug, Burning Turret, Specter Family, Rotghroth Family

ICE (6)
15-35: Guardian, Agent, Cryoa, Spawner, Warriors, Battle Alphabet, Apprentice Mage
36-50: Shaper, Servile Casters, Mage, Gazer Family, War Trall Family
51-65:
66-00: Servile Vat Techs, Charged Vlish, Spraying Shrub, Specter Family, Pylon, Cryodrayk, Golem

For the most part, only specialized enemies have high resistances to the elements. Nothing resists physical attacks horribly, but almost everything resists them somewhat. So if you have a Drayk and a Kyshakk, the Kyshakk will be useless against Glaahks and Gazers, but will do better damage against most other enemies. Also, the Kyshakk can still use melee against Glaahks and Gazers.

Acid and Poison do look like the best overall attack types, though. That said, Rotghroth attacks are not acid attacks, they just deliver the acid status effect.

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
Profile #7
I think the dialog bits where you are forced in to combat with your fragile lifecrafter in the front of your creations has turned me off from lifecrafters. Like when you have to deal with the drakons, and have to go fight whatsisname. The game script moves you and your creations to the arena, with you OUT FRONT. Poof. A couple of firebreaths later, you are burnt to a cinder. Or chomped.

Oh the forged gene humanity.

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If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish.

Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish.
Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00
Law Bringer
Member # 6785
Profile #8
I tried most of the regular creations as both a fire shaping and magic shaping lifecrafter. Fyora are the cheapest and easiest to get for starting characters with the bonus that they never run out of missle attacks.

Jeff improved it some, but kyshakks and wingbolts both suffer terribly when they run out of spell energy in long hasted fights. The wingbolt's melee attack with poison is better than the kyshakk or even a gazer.

Vlish are just a shadow of their overpowered self and I prefer an artila with a little extra essence for strength. Glaahks are okay but they are only a stop gap. Wingbolts and gazers are still great but you have to watch their spell energy to switch over to melee.

If you have helped the Shapers enough in Chapter 2 then you can gain access to Shaper Camp Gamma at the start of Chapter 3. This gives you a chance to get kyshakk and wingbolt ahead of the Rebels. By the time you could get them in Chapter 4 they already have at least 3 levels of experience.

Kyshakks are just meat shields with decent attacks. Drayk, cryodrayk, and drakon are all better for attacking although the cryodrayk can run out of spell energy.

War tralls are underpowered for their level. Unless you have a Shaper bias against barred creations go with a drakon or gazer.

Attacking the new creations -
I found that drayk does the best damage versus wingbolt for cost. Kyshakks are fairly resistant but force them into melee and they are weaker. War tralls are overgrown battle alphas and are usually destroyed in a few rounds. Drakons are the hardest to kill with the new creations so you are better off using drayks, cryodrayks, or drakons against them.

Charged creations are upgraded pyroroamers. Kill them from a distance and try to get them to provide collateral damage to monsters that are around them. In the expert area a few well placed shots can kill a whole pack so they never can attack you.

[ Wednesday, November 22, 2006 17:38: Message edited by: Randomizer ]
Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #9
I guess the truth behind my perception that few things resist physical damage is that most things resist it a bit, but few things resist it enormously. But it's those things that drastically resist magic damage that make it hard to get along with only Kyshakks and Wingbolts.

Rotghroths with heavy buffing are really tough, and I found them quite acceptable on Normal. I don't know how they fare on Torment.

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We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Warrior
Member # 3746
Profile #10
The combination I ended up using for the last half of the game (as a Lifecrafter) was Wingbolt/Battle Beta. After I magicked everything to near invincibility, the beta distracted whatever it was I was trying to kill while the Wingbolt took chunks out of it from afar.

I only added a Kyshakk near the end because I was afraid I'd need more range support. In retrospect, I really should have subsituted a Drayk. The irony would have been delicious.
Posts: 153 | Registered: Tuesday, December 2 2003 08:00
Apprentice
Member # 7884
Profile #11
On the topic of plusses and minuses of the various creations- has the Ur-Drakon lost its cool previous "multiple targets" attack? Mine seems to only strike at a single individual no matter the enemy grouping. Wipes the target out, but it was nice having something that could occupy three targets at once...
Posts: 4 | Registered: Thursday, January 11 2007 08:00
...b10010b...
Member # 869
Profile Homepage #12
Yeah, it's gone from doing mediocre damage to a few targets to doing heavy damage plus slowing to a single target. On the whole, it's an improvement.

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The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Law Bringer
Member # 6785
Profile #13
By the time you get an ur-drakon there isn't that much left to do with it.
Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00
Warrior
Member # 5870
Profile #14
Well, in my windows version, drayks and drakons do fire damage, not physical. And a drakon costs 150, or 183 after buying 2 int, not before.
Posts: 122 | Registered: Tuesday, May 31 2005 07:00
...b10010b...
Member # 869
Profile Homepage #15
While we're correcting errors, the base cost of a vlish is only 25.

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The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #16
Are you sure that drayks and drakons do fire damage? Can anyone else confirm this about windows (or possibly updated mac versions as well)?

If so, that's a HUGE change, which among other things makes drayks and drakons less consistently useful.

I know there are a few minor errors that crept into the page. To be honest, I doubt I'll update it. G4 has lost my energy and attention.

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
...b10010b...
Member # 869
Profile Homepage #17
I can confirm that in GF4 1.0.2 for Mac, drayk and drakon missile attacks still do physical damage.

[ Tuesday, February 20, 2007 21:27: Message edited by: Cryptozoology ]

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The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Warrior
Member # 5870
Profile #18
quote:
Originally written by Slartyphobia:

Are you sure that drayks and drakons do fire damage? Can anyone else confirm this about windows (or possibly updated mac versions as well)?

If so, that's a HUGE change, which among other things makes drayks and drakons less consistently useful.

I know there are a few minor errors that crept into the page. To be honest, I doubt I'll update it. G4 has lost my energy and attention.

Yes, I am sure. It is a huge change, but I think it makes drakons even more useful. Fire resistance is less common than physical. Especially wingbolts and kyshakk, two of the most headaching opponents have zero fire resistance. Anyway you can use melee as a backup.
Posts: 122 | Registered: Tuesday, May 31 2005 07:00
Infiltrator
Member # 878
Profile #19
quote:
Originally written by Delicious Vlish:

I think the dialog bits where you are forced in to combat with your fragile lifecrafter in the front of your creations has turned me off from lifecrafters. Like when you have to deal with the drakons, and have to go fight whatsisname. The game script moves you and your creations to the arena, with you OUT FRONT. Poof. A couple of firebreaths later, you are burnt to a cinder. Or chomped.

All you have to do is rearrange your party order so your creations are in front.

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Warning: Posts may contain misspellinks and typo.s
Posts: 409 | Registered: Sunday, March 31 2002 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 878
Profile #20
Also, there were a few other things I wondered about. Do plated clawbugs and plated artilas have more armor than the normal ones? Are there any differences besides level between battle alphas and betas and between glaahks and ur-glaahks? With acid-spitting creations and rotgroths, do some add more levels of acid than others? Do clawbugs do more poison levels than other creations that have a poison melee attack?

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Warning: Posts may contain misspellinks and typo.s
Posts: 409 | Registered: Sunday, March 31 2002 08:00
Warrior
Member # 7276
Profile #21
Once more, it seems no one loves a canister virgin. Kshyakks made a big difference as compared to the previous game - at least I wasn't stuck with cryoas and roamers (and trying to build other shaping areas way too late). At the very very end, it was a little like the happy time with my drayks in the first game.
Posts: 63 | Registered: Tuesday, July 4 2006 07:00
...b10010b...
Member # 869
Profile Homepage #22
I found kyshakks severely disappointing, largely because of their low accuracy compared to wingbolts; on Torment difficulty there were a lot of things they just plain couldn't hit.

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The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #23
I kept a Kyshakk for one game, and towards the end it was more or less pulling its weight, but for most of the time my Wingbolts and Rotghroths were doing the job while the Kyshakk took some damage. I suggested making the Kyshakk attack do fire rather than magic damage, so that at least sometimes they'd be doing something the Wingbolts didn't do better; but Jeff thought that would only make them even weaker.

The enduring damage thing from the Kyshakks is a neat idea in principle, but it's just not a big enough effect, especially when Kyshakk accuracy is so poor.

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We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Warrior
Member # 5870
Profile #24
If one is playing windows version, gazers are a good upgrade of wingbolts. For levels and another 115 extra hit points are nice, but not for that 50% extra cost. What counts more is that gazers have good fire resistance while wingbolts none.
Posts: 122 | Registered: Tuesday, May 31 2005 07:00

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