The Challenge to End All Challenges
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| Author | Topic: The Challenge to End All Challenges |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Saturday, January 6 2007 11:06
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People have been observing for a long time that magic is extremely powerful in G4 (and G2 and G3) and that of all PC abilities, it's the one that is hardest to do without. So. Finish the game without casting a single magic spell. Ever. Not one Minor Heal. Not one Firebolt. Of course, you will want to do it on Torment. And you have to actually fight stuff. This is not a stealth challenge. Suddenly missiles become much more precious. You will have to save the best ones for when you really need them. Creations will be helpful, but the fact that you have limited means to heal them means you can't rely on them in all parts of the game, and they will likely have to be disposable. They are however a free resource, since you don't need essence for spells. The lack of infinite healing also means PC defense becomes somewhat more important. Endurance is critical. But most of all, it will force you to optimize your tactics completely. This challenge is obviously one place the Warrior can shine. You can clearly do this on no canisters, but I'd rather do it on low canisters, as some of the special creations can really shine here. Charged Vlish, for example, are practically the only reusable Slow effect you have (until Ur-Drakons at the very end of the game). Pyroroamers might be useful, too. Bhahahahahahaha. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Saturday, January 6 2007 11:17
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I think this would be very doable with a warrior or shock trooper. You'd have to save pods and spores (except essence pods, obviously) for when you actually need them, but I'm pretty sure there's enough to get you through the game if you avoid the harder optional fights. I foresee lack of healing as being a major problem -- using pods to heal between fights is just extravagant, so you're going to be running back to town a lot. [ Saturday, January 06, 2007 11:21: Message edited by: Cryptozoology ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Saturday, January 6 2007 11:25
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No, you'll definitely want to save essence pods. They net you extra disposable creations. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Saturday, January 6 2007 12:09
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P1: Creations require essence. P2: Essence used for creations cannot be used for other purposes while the creation lives. C1: Essence reserved to make charged creations cannot be used to improve your permanent creations. P3: Charged Vlish use 75 essence. P4: Essence Pods heal 65-70 essence. C2: If you leave 75 essence free for making charged vlish, you're wasting a lot of essence pods. C3: If you leave more than 75 essence free for making charged creations, that's even more essence that isn't going into your permanent creations. Basically, I'm not sure I want to leave 75 essence unused just so I can occasionally slow an enemy. That's a lot of essence, especially early on. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Saturday, January 6 2007 12:53
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My thought was really that permanent creations would be extremely hard to keep alive, given that you can only heal them from spores. The lower tier ones will die easily, and even Drayks and their ilk can only take so many hits. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Saturday, January 6 2007 14:30
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Maybe so, but you're probably not going to be making creations during combat in any case -- and after the fight is over, there's ample time to run back to town with your tail between your legs and heal up rather than using pods. Still, I suppose there's no harm in holding on to essence pods. Since I won't be buying spells, it's not as if money's going to be tight. I'll get started on this as soon as I decide whether to use a Warrior or Shock Trooper. On one hand, the warrior has better overall starting stats. On the other, 1/3 more essence is very attractive. [ Saturday, January 06, 2007 14:36: Message edited by: Cryptozoology ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Saturday, January 6 2007 16:08
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Not having daze is going to hurt right from the start. A warrior or shock trooper would want to have lots of creations in order to have more attacks per round. Even if you have to replace them it would be worth it. You will be buying up all available spores, pods, and crystals since you can't use healing and speed spells. Too bad I don't have the time to try this challenge. I'm playing Nethergate and want to try the challenge of an all druid Roman party. Surprisingly the lower health and spell energy is balanced out by the multiple target attacks of 3 war druids using darts of ice at the start. Carrying loot back to town is a drag, but since they aren't buying javelins I'm up over 1000 gold after the abandoned mine at the start. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Saturday, January 6 2007 16:26
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The extra essence is nice. On the other hand, the Warrior gets extra HP, which should also be nice. At any given point in the game, the Warrior should have (compared to the ST) approximately: +3 melee skill +3 missile skill +4 Quick Action +5 Parry -1 Fire Shaping -2 Battle Shaping -1 Magic Shaping -2 Intelligence They seem pretty balanced to me. One thing that's worth pointing out is that your creations will _not_ be blessed or shielded (let alone hasted) on a regular basis. This is different from typical Lifecrafter play. Chapter 2 sounds very painful to me for the ST, since you still don't have any creations that can take two hits without dying. EDIT: Do you think it would be doable with the additional constraint that you can't leave zones just to heal? [ Saturday, January 06, 2007 16:31: Message edited by: Facepalming Hecatonchire ] -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5754
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written Saturday, January 6 2007 17:16
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Ah, this should be fun. I've already started a character following the exact same principles. Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Saturday, January 6 2007 19:13
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quote:The difference in shaping skill won't really make much difference in the later parts of the game, and there's also Leadership and Mechanics to consider -- the Warrior has one more point of each. On balance, though, I think the best build for this would play basically like a Lifecrafter with less access to buffs, so I'm going for a shock trooper. quote:Hee hee. Since I played my first game as a low-canister rebel lifecrafter, I spent most of the first four chapters not having any creations that could take two hits without dying. Without defensive buffs, a Drayk often can't take one hit from a Wingbolt without dying. Lack of access to hasting and blessing is going to make it difficult to kill everything before it kills me, though. I guess I'll just have to try it and see how it goes. quote:Probably, but I'm guessing a lot of the game would have to be left incomplete, including most of the optional areas -- even playing normally it took me several runs in and out to do everything worth doing in the Western Morass. (A lot of the optional areas will have to be left incomplete anyway -- I don't see anyone being able to spare the number of pods and spores it'd take to wear down Matala.) -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Saturday, January 6 2007 20:23
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I think the ST will be a little better. What tipped the scales for me was realizing how vulnerable even a well-armored Warrior will be to enemy magic attacks. Without Protection, Steel Skin, and so on, you'll be taking probably half damage even after Parry and armor. When facing multiple Wingbolts, that means even at very high levels you pretty much need creations to survive. The creations will die, so you go with the disposable creations model, which is fine. Given the disposability model, actually, I expect I *would* pick a creation skill to pump somewhat. Not sure whether to go with Fire or Magic. They each have their good points. Magic is better early on with Artila and Vlish, but Fire gets Kyshakks who sound are the best value meatshields on the market. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Saturday, January 6 2007 21:10
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From playing lifecrafters and a shocktrooper, I'd say that a shock trooper will work better since you don't need magic skills. You can get leadership 5 and mechanics of 6 in Southforge. Start with fire shaping and intelligence as your main areas. A swarm of fyoras will do as well as a few cryoas. You will have enough for 3 fyoras and fire shaping of 7. They can be replaced with later creations in chapters 2 and 3 when you get kyshakks. Since you don't need to increase spells and healing craft you have plenty of points for battle skills in the last half of chapter 2 that you can use after reaching Burwood and the trainer. Instant high parry and anything else you need. The hard part will be saving all those spores and pods for when you need them. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Saturday, January 6 2007 21:20
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Clarification: when you say "this is not a stealth challenge", that doesn't preclude normal uses of leadership and mechanics to minimise fights or make them easier, right? I'm going to be leaning pro-Shaper for most of the game, so I at least want to avoid having to kill Moseh. My shocktrooper just got out of Southforge with Greenfang and a cryoa in tow. Currently level 5: have invested all skill points so far in Leadership and Mechanics, and will still be doing so for the next level or two. More news as it comes. [ Saturday, January 06, 2007 21:22: Message edited by: Cryptozoology ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Saturday, January 6 2007 22:05
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Yeah, normal use of Leadership and Mechanics is fine. The point of that clause is to prevent this from becoming effectively a much less restrictive version of the pacifist challenge. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Saturday, January 6 2007 23:00
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Making some headway into Chapter 1. Not too hard so far. Shock trooper is mostly hitting things with javelins, which are in plentiful supply; creations are hitting things in the usual way. Collecting food to use for healing to save trips back to town. Main thing I'm noticing: without access to blessing, I'm missing a lot more. The difference between hitting 60% of the time and 80% is significant when facing large groups of enemies. Going to have to think seriously about whether to invest in missile weapons later in the game or just not bother; my creations will be doing most of the damage anyway, and it'll take a lot of skill points before I'm able to hit worth a good goddamn. Cryoa is kind of overkill at this stage of the game; I'd probably be doing better with 3 fyoras instead, but I'm trying to keep it alive for later. EDIT: So a drakon walks into Forsaken Docks and asks, "Is the Servile Tender here?" Anyway, I've been lucky enough to snag a Thahdskin Tunic. Go team. [ Saturday, January 06, 2007 23:50: Message edited by: Cryptozoology ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Sunday, January 7 2007 00:43
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I'd vote for Missile Weapons investment. There are several items which will be very useful at key moments with a little investment -- Reaper Batons, Wands of Death, Terror, Disruption and Corruption, Jeweled Wands, the wand that dazes, Torrent Gems and Madness Gems, even Ensnaring Fibers... there aren't lots of these but there are enough that you can use afford to use most of the Icy and Spray Crystals on merely moderately difficult spots. The good creations are expensive enough that, by the time you've bought a decent amount of Int, it's going to take an investment of more than 30 skill points to pay for an extra Kyshakk. At that point the cheaper levels of missile weapons are a no-brainer. You don't have any real need to pump melee, Endurance and Parry aren't really attractive once they are expensive, and you only need so much shaping skill. Not sure what else would make sense. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 7764
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written Sunday, January 7 2007 00:45
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You have to CAST WAR BLESSING to get through upper southforge!You have failed already! -------------------- I have a karma of 2!Yay! Posts: 60 | Registered: Monday, December 11 2006 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Sunday, January 7 2007 00:47
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quote::rolleyes: Anyway, the trouble with investing in Missile Weapons is that it's more than "a little investment". In my last game as a servile, I tried putting a point into Missile Weapons here and there when I could spare it, and ended up with about a 50% hit rate with crystals when blessed. Not really satisfactory. Ah well. As you say, it's not like I have much else to do with all those skill points. May as well pump Dex, and Missile Weapons too once I've got those two points from Cap'n Archie. Maybe I should stick some Ivory Skulls on my armor too -- given that I don't intend for my shock trooper to act as a damage sink, they'll probably do more good than Steel Spines. [ Sunday, January 07, 2007 00:58: Message edited by: Cryptozoology ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Sunday, January 7 2007 01:22
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Do Ivory Skulls increase hit rate? I forget what they do on armor, but if that's it, then yeah, definitely. I think you'll still want Golden Crystals in the end, since your best missile options hit everything anyway, though. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Sunday, January 7 2007 02:33
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quote:Yeah, they add a cursing effect when put on weapons (meh) and increase hit rate when put on armour (yay). Quite handy. Current status: just escorted Shaila to the docks. No less than four cryoas now following me around. Only really tricky battle so far was the soldiers in the eastern half of Spirefields -- had to burn a couple of Icy Crystals to avoid being killed. I haven't done the Dumping Pits yet, since it's going to be a pain without healing magic and the reward is useless to me, but I'll eventually have to go in there, if only for the Blood Poison. Update: Just reached Dillame. Bought two levels of Create Vlish from Duncan, traded in two of my cryoas for vlish -- at least half of my creations should now be reasonably effective against any given opponent. Update #2: Just cleared out Sandros Mine. The Parasitic Shade had been a major problem for both my lifecrafter and my servile. Since I had 10 bags of speed spores in reserve and hadn't really used any magic items up to this point, I decided to go in hasted. It might not even have been necessary -- with an army of four vlish and two cryoas, I absolutely cleaned its clock. The fight was over in two rounds, and mopping up the half-dozen shades it had summoned was no problem. Being able to spend all your essence on an overwhelming army of creations instead of leaving some in reserve for spells sure is an advantage at times. [ Sunday, January 07, 2007 05:30: Message edited by: Cryptozoology ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5754
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written Sunday, January 7 2007 15:39
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The No-Spell Warrior Chapter 1: It was relatively easy, and I was even able to kill the drayk when I first got to it. I could kill most things in one hit, except for the higher level enemies like Battle Alphas. I used Greenfang through most of this Chapter, until Shaila took him. Overall, ths Chapter was simple. Chapter 2: Part 1 The first half of this Chapter has been easy. I mowed down Sandros Mine easily, only the Parasitic Shade was a problem, and I beat it to. The Circle of the Drayk was easy as ever, with the Drayk and Serviles causing no problem. I have continued through as a Rebel. I equip myself with Intellect items whenever I upgrade my Vlish, and then re-equip my fighting gear. I have picked up Khur, and as I head towards Moseh, already have my Gloves of Savagery. I have over 200 health already, and have 16 QA 1nd 11 Stength and Parry. This run through has been much easier than my first runthrough, on Torment, with a Warrior. Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Sunday, January 7 2007 17:49
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Continuing through Chapter 2. My first attempt on the drayk in the Circle of the Drayk went poorly, so after reloading I spent a charge from a terror wand, which made it run around in circles for long enough to kill it. Starting to wish I hadn't sold every wand I found on my first playthrough as a lifecrafter -- some of these things are actually useful. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Sunday, January 7 2007 18:44
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I found by accident that if you aren't hasted in the Dumping Pit you don't get nailed by poison as much after you get past the artilas. Going for the box in the artila area for the discipline wand is the only place that you really need to be hasted. Wands are really useful since you can't use spells. Discipline wands are a little deadlier than venom wands in the first half of the game. Sparkiling and terror wands are needed since you can't cast the spell. I always sold them myself. The last part of Sandros Mine is going to be hard without spine shield for the old golem. Get ready to lose some creations since you have to do masssive healing. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Sunday, January 7 2007 19:13
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The wingbolts in Alwan's room in Rivergate Keep were interesting -- I was eventually able to beat them without losing creations or using up items by drawing them out one at a time, surrounding them with vlish and carefully managing my attacks so no vlish was attacked twice. My vlish were *just* tough enough to survive one melee attack plus the poison damage. Krazo and Mystithus were pretty easy -- easier than either of them were in my normal Servile game. I'm no longer convinced this challenge is actually a challenge; it actually seems like the most effective way to play a shock trooper. My skill points in this chapter have been invested about equally in Intelligence and Endurance, enough in Magic Shaping to get it up to 5 just before making my Vlish, and not much in anything else. Looking ahead, Shaftoe may be tricky; after I've dealt with Moseh, I'm going to want to kill him to get his sword. [ Sunday, January 07, 2007 21:37: Message edited by: Cryptozoology ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Monday, January 8 2007 01:41
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On to Chapter 3. First thing I did was buy a bunch of shaping skills at Shaper Camp Gamma. With two wingbolts and a glaahk, Eliza was no problem and Shaftoe was only a little harder. I've sold the Agent's Cloak, of course, but the Guardian Claymore is going to see me through to the end of the game. I also went back to Sandros Mine -- the first two fights were pitifully easy, but the Old Golem is a problem. Pretty soon the game is going to expect me to have Mass Energise. I suspect I'll be going through a lot of speed spores instead. Update: Whew. Beat the Old Golem using an absolutely ridiculous strategy. I used two hasted Wingbolts to take him down as far as the Fearwarded form, then hid in a corner, waited for it to kill the Wingbolts (didn't take long), left combat mode, used some essence pods, made a pack of Glaahks to take him down to Crumbling form and waited for the damage it was taking every round to finish it off. I then learned something rather interesting, in an infuriating kind of way -- if you wait long enough without killing it, the Crumbling Golem stops crumbling. Apparently the script just gives it a fairly long-duration Lightning Aura effect. So I had to make another pack of Glaahks to finish it off. In hindsight, that fight would have been a lot easier if I'd had a Charged Vlish. I may as well officially declare this a canister-free challenge -- I'm not sure how I'll do without my precious Drakons and Gazers in the endgame, but, well, it's worth a shot. Update #2: Well, the Forgotten One was easy by comparison. He couldn't really do much to hurt my Wingbolts, and I had a Glaahk running around to take care of the burrowers. Mmm, Shaper Trueweave. [ Monday, January 08, 2007 02:52: Message edited by: Cryptozoology ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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