An insane idea, but...
| Author | Topic: An insane idea, but... |
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Shaper
Member # 7472
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written Saturday, September 16 2006 08:20
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Is it possible for the vahnatai of avernum to actually be a long-lost faction of the shapers? Here is my reasoning behind this idea. Both the shapers and the vahnatai are highly dependent on crystals. Most shaper machines and devices used crystals to channel and control power. I remember a quest in Geneforge 2 where you had to fetch a Black Crystal for a shaper living in the mountains. Were these black crystals the forerunners for the vahnatai Purity Crystals? Also, when the vahnatai created the monster plagues to attack Valorim, the alien beasts were the most destructive, and most bizzare of the creatures that attacked. Isn't it possible that these monsters were originally a shaper battle creation that was resurrected? Also, the shapers, according to the Geneforge series, are heading toward an apocolyptic calamity. If this happens, there would be very few traces of the shapers on the surface. This would back up Jeff's claim that the Avernum and Geneforge worlds are not the same. Based on this, I think that the war with the shapers started going south, and they started breaking their own rules and regulations. This caused fighting amongst themselves, and they started grabbing as much power as they could, not considering the consquences. They started making larger and larger creations, and massive machines to destroy each other. Soon, they started shaping themselves to attain further power, maybe giving rise to the Troglodytes and giants, and started violating the natural order of the world. This continued for years, untill either one of the machines or spells reached such destructive power that is literally fractured the two continents, splitting them into the four continents Aizo, Palgrad, Valorim, and Vantanas. Only a few fractured remnents of the human race were left, scattered across the four continents. However, just before the catastrophe, some of the shapers went underground, literally, into what is now Avernum. There, they learned to survive, and slowly evolved into a new race adapted to living in the caves: the vahnatai. Well, that is just my opinion. Any thoughts? -------------------- Scenarios need reviews! Please rate these scenarios at the CSR after playing them! Amnesia • Dilecia • The Empire's New Grove • Express Delivery Twilight Valley • Witch Hunt • Where the Rivers Meet • Foul Hordes Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Saturday, September 16 2006 08:28
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That's a fairly standard theory. I can't remember the last time we discussed it, though. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Saturday, September 16 2006 08:28
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Avernum and Geneforge are not set in the same universe, do not operate on the same laws, and should not be linked. The likelihood of total extinction of all the breeding creations, especially serviles, seems unlikely (except for drayks, drakons, eyebeasts and gazers?). The appearance of sliths and nephilim seems unlikely when there are already serviles. The Shapers strongly oppose self-shaping, and the vahnatai are not human anymore. Magical cataclysms that change the face of the planet drastically seem like an unnecessarily complex argument. Many ruins are found in Avernum and on the surface, but none of them have any trace of Shapers in them. Priestly magic can't just appear overnight, and Geneforge's magic doesn't have problems with heavy armor. And so on. —Alorael, who is moderately amused by the similarities between vahnatai creationism and shaping. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2820
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written Saturday, September 16 2006 09:22
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The only real connection between the shapers and vahnatai in your theory is their shared involvement with crystals. Ignoring that, the worlds are very distinct. If you think about it, crystals a very commonly used type or class of items which can be magical in games and fantasy worlds. It does not surprise me that they are used in both games. After all, would it be more appropriate to use crystals or giant mushrooms for shaping? -------------------- Thuryl: I mean, most of us don't go around consuming our own bodily fluids, no matter how delicious they are. ==== Alorael: War and violence would end if we all had each other's babies! ==== Drakefyre: Those are hideous mangos. Posts: 1415 | Registered: Thursday, March 27 2003 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Saturday, September 16 2006 09:23
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quote:Need I remind everybody what happened the last time we discussed it? UDDER DESTRUCTION, that's what! -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 6670
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written Saturday, September 16 2006 09:45
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I refuse to believe any of these conspiracy theories until one of them features a vahnatai in a tutu (I'm still trying to figure out why that was the first thing to pop in my head after reading this article). Really, the most likely reason why beings with the power of shaping life exist in both Avernum/Exile and Geneforge is because JV likes the idea of beings with the power of shaping life. After reading the latest Terry Brooks installment, I think that not joining Avernum with Geneforge would be a very good idea. -------------------- See the l0veli lakes Posts: 1509 | Registered: Tuesday, January 10 2006 08:00 |
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Shaper
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written Saturday, September 16 2006 10:46
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quote:Jeff also said there would not be an Avernum 4. We all saw how that turned out. Also, laws can change over time, if they are in the right situation or are manipulated correctly. I can't decide whether I would like it if Avernum and Geneforge turned out to be the same world, just radically different times. quote:I didn't say total extinction. In fact, I didn't even mention extinction. I just said that only fractured remnents of the human race were scattered across the four continents. Now that I think about, serviles could actually have evolved into the Troglodyte race, Thahds and/or Battle Alphas into giants. The sliths could have been a new creation made by the Drakons, for infiltration and such. Nephilim could have been the result of shapers attempting to deform an enemy, like Heustess in GF1. quote:You're forgetting primal instinct, which no creature is above. If you're life is threatend, there is a 99% chance that you will do anything just to survive. Everything, including humans, will fight to survive, no matter the cost. Saying that the vahnatai aren't human actually does more to back my point, rather then denounce it. quote:To our knowledge, that is correct. But how many of these ruins have been discovered that we don't know about? quote:In Geneforge, priestly magic is called Healing magic and Blessing magic. quote:The topic got attacked by cows? :P -------------------- Scenarios need reviews! Please rate these scenarios at the CSR after playing them! Amnesia • Dilecia • The Empire's New Grove • Express Delivery Twilight Valley • Witch Hunt • Where the Rivers Meet • Foul Hordes Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Saturday, September 16 2006 12:12
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Out of the many, many types of creations that shapers have devised, nearly every single one is missing in Avernum. That's useful beasts like ornks, the ever-common fyora, and many more. Serviles are no longer recognizably present, as troglodytes in no way resemble them beyond being humanoid. In Geneforge, mages are mages. They cast spells that include healing and blessing. Priests are a distinctly different breed in Avernum. The potential existence of ruins from shapers isn't evidence for shapers. Avernum could also be set in some bizarre distant future of Earth, but there's no evidence for that either. —Alorael, who thinks in the end that a link between Geneforge and Avernum can be fabricated, of course. Occam's Razor says no. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7472
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written Saturday, September 16 2006 12:31
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They didn't die out, they evolved. A list of possible changes: Fyora -> Fire LizardCryoa -> Ice LizardArtila -> Wyrmkin, Dark WyrmServile -> TroglodyteOrnk -> CowTurret -> FungusThahd/Battle Alpha -> GiantRoamer -> HellhoundDrayk -> DrakeCryodrayk -> Ice DrakeDrakon -> DragonGazer -> GazerEyebeast -> EyebeastAny of these evolutions are fully possible, given the right amount of time. If my theory is correct, do you think humans would have been able to rebuild everything in a couple months? It would've required decades, or even centuries, to restore order and rebuild. By then, most, if not all, of the shaper knowledge would have been lost. Also, mages were far more powerful in Geneforge than Avernum. It isn't unreasonable that they could excel in more than one form of magic. Besides, if I recall correctly, there are a few healers throughout the Geneforge series who specialize in healing and blessing magic only. [ Saturday, September 16, 2006 12:35: Message edited by: Nioca ] -------------------- Scenarios need reviews! Please rate these scenarios at the CSR after playing them! Amnesia • Dilecia • The Empire's New Grove • Express Delivery Twilight Valley • Witch Hunt • Where the Rivers Meet • Foul Hordes Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |
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Triad Mage
Member # 7
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written Saturday, September 16 2006 12:35
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And you missed out on the most obvious - clawbugs to chitrachs! But convenienty vlish and glaakhs are missing. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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Shaper
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written Saturday, September 16 2006 12:48
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I stand corrected; most of them didn't die out. If you really want to get picky, I failed to include Rotgroths and Rotdihzons too. However, Vlish wouldn't stand a chance against a Gazer, and Glaahks would go down fairly quickly if weren't guided. Besides that, most creations were made sterile. Therefore, some species would die out simply because they couldn't reproduce. Other species would die because of natural selection, and some simply lack any sort of independent survival skills. This would also further hinder human redevelopment. -------------------- Scenarios need reviews! Please rate these scenarios at the CSR after playing them! Amnesia • Dilecia • The Empire's New Grove • Express Delivery Twilight Valley • Witch Hunt • Where the Rivers Meet • Foul Hordes Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 4506
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written Saturday, September 16 2006 14:05
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Um, serviles into troglodytes? Isn't that overkill? Besides, what about the Spawners? Wouldn't they have evolved? While it may be fun to try and compare the two worlds, unless JV makes a game that actually does so, this is all meaningless conjecture. Fun, but meaningless. - Archmagus Micael -------------------- "You dare Trifle with Avernum?" ~ Erika the Archmage -------------------- My Scenarios: Undead Valley : A small Undead problem, what could possibly go wrong? -------------------- Richard Black - PROOF of his existance (the Infernal one's website). -------------------- MY FORUM! Randomosity at it's highest! :) Posts: 1370 | Registered: Thursday, June 10 2004 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Saturday, September 16 2006 14:51
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quote:Making a spawner that could reproduce itself seems like a pretty bad idea, really. [ Saturday, September 16, 2006 14:51: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Saturday, September 16 2006 15:26
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Bipedal dinosaurs into quadrupedal lizards? I question that one. I still think serviles have less in common with troglodytes than humans do. I've always thought of chitrachs as insects (giant mantises) and clawbugs as arachnids (giant scorpions). Nothing evolves from one class into another. fungi, shrubs, wyrmkin, and hellhounds were all added to Avernum in A4 mainly as a vehicle for Geneforge graphics. I find them questionable. —Alorael, who still thinks evolution in general is overkill. Unless you are positing hundreds of thousands of years between Geneforge and Avernum, it's not possible. If you are, where are the rayguns? Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Shaper
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written Saturday, September 16 2006 16:30
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quote:Not entirely. If you compare their discriptions, they actually have a lot in common. It's out there, but not impossible. quote:I think Drakefyre was joking on this one. quote:Fair point. I do want to point out that I never included shrubs. What about Artila to Dark Wyrms? They have been in the Avernum series since the beginning. quote:That's why the Empire is so secretive. :P -------------------- Scenarios need reviews! Please rate these scenarios at the CSR after playing them! Amnesia • Dilecia • The Empire's New Grove • Express Delivery Twilight Valley • Witch Hunt • Where the Rivers Meet • Foul Hordes Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2820
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written Saturday, September 16 2006 18:43
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This theory is exactly as valid as mine, which hypothesizes that all of the Spiderweb games take place on Earth, but in different phases a la the mythology of the Aztecs. -------------------- Thuryl: I mean, most of us don't go around consuming our own bodily fluids, no matter how delicious they are. ==== Alorael: War and violence would end if we all had each other's babies! ==== Drakefyre: Those are hideous mangos. Posts: 1415 | Registered: Thursday, March 27 2003 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Sunday, September 17 2006 14:08
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Actually there is a warped way to link the worlds. Consider the Vahnatai to be descendents of the original inhabitants of Sucia Island. The inhabitants split into two groups following the disaster with the ones following organic manipulation going off to the mainland to be come shapers. The ones that followed traditional inorganic crystal shaping go underground and evolve into the Vahnatai. Now the current war between the Shapers and the drakon rebels destroyed the surface world and ends organic shaping. The surviving creations either die off or evolve into the Avernum monsters. Shaping magic is lost or deliberately forgotten in the aftermath that send technology back towards the Stone Age. Some magic remains among the humans that were far enough away from the fighting like the Sholai. Since the Vahnatai go through resting periods to allow their caves to replenish, several thousands of years have past between the two periods of Geneforge and Avernum. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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Shaper
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written Sunday, September 17 2006 15:22
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Now that's a thought. Actually, it makes more sense than shapers just going underground during the war. -------------------- Scenarios need reviews! Please rate these scenarios at the CSR after playing them! Amnesia • Dilecia • The Empire's New Grove • Express Delivery Twilight Valley • Witch Hunt • Where the Rivers Meet • Foul Hordes Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 3513
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written Sunday, September 17 2006 20:09
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My thoughts on linking GF and Avernum: No to the power of infinity. -------------------- Nobody appreciates me. It's all "Igor! Fetch some wine!" "Igor! Clean up this experiment!" or "Igor! Bury this in the garden, we're leaving town in 10 minutes!" —Alorael, who tried to become a deivore once. The priest gave him a funny look after the third wafer. Posts: 301 | Registered: Thursday, October 2 2003 07:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Monday, September 18 2006 07:17
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quote:I thought he only said that about Exile 4? But perhaps I am mistaken. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Monday, September 18 2006 07:52
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No, he said it about A4 too. He was wrong, of course. —Alorael, who need only point to the SEP to explain all the misinformation and betrayal. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Shaper
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written Monday, September 18 2006 07:53
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I don't know about Exile, but he said that he would not make A4 in a review somewhere... I don't know where, though. He also said something about it, of all the weird places to put it, in the A4 instructions. EDIT: One minute slow. Why am I cursed so?!?!? [ Monday, September 18, 2006 07:55: Message edited by: Nioca ] -------------------- Scenarios need reviews! Please rate these scenarios at the CSR after playing them! Amnesia • Dilecia • The Empire's New Grove • Express Delivery Twilight Valley • Witch Hunt • Where the Rivers Meet • Foul Hordes Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |