A4 Hidden Skills [SPOILERS]

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AuthorTopic: A4 Hidden Skills [SPOILERS]
RAmpaGE
Apprentice
Member # 5900
 written Sunday, December 18 2005 15:18 Profile #25
Guys? Am I the only one curious about that empty spot between Gymnastics and Magery?

When making my experiments, trying to find just how much I'd have to train in each skill to get this or that one, for some reason I took note of each skill's position, and got this:

Quick Strike
Parry
Blademaster
Anatomy
Gymnastics
***********
Magery
Resistance
Magical Efficiency
Lethal Blow
Riposte
Sharpshooter

Did you guys not say anything because it's revealed later in the game, or was it that no one noticed it? Anyway, I don't think it's pathfinder, because I boosted intelligence and nature lore as much as possible, to no result.

[ Sunday, December 18, 2005 15:20: Message edited by: RAmpaGE ]
Posts: 22 | Registered: Sunday, June 5 2005 07:00
Thuryl
...b10010b...
Member # 869
 written Sunday, December 18 2005 15:27 Profile Homepage #26
Probably it's the empty spot that was once occupied by Pathfinder, and Jeff didn't fill it with anything.

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The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Kelandon
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
 written Sunday, December 18 2005 15:42 Profile Homepage #27
quote:
Originally written by RAmpaGE:

Anyway, I don't think it's pathfinder, because I boosted intelligence and nature lore as much as possible, to no result.
Without poisonous or harmful terrain, there's no use for Pathfinder, so Jeff took out the skill, but he didn't bother to shift anything else up.

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Thuryl
...b10010b...
Member # 869
 written Sunday, December 18 2005 15:47 Profile Homepage #28
By the way, is it just me or is Lethal Blow distinctly unimpressive in A4? It seems to do roughly what Assassination used to do in the other Avernums.

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The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Ephesos
Law Bringer
Member # 4153
 written Sunday, December 18 2005 15:53 Profile Homepage #29
I've never seen any noticeable difference between a lethal blow and a normal one... even with something like 4 or 5 in Lethal Blow.

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Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice.
Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00
Synergy
Shaper
Member # 6292
 written Tuesday, December 20 2005 16:29 Profile #30
From an inquiry in the Level 3 Spells thread, I did a little research on some magical variables and Tool Use related to Unlock Doors. Interesting conclusions to say the least. Have a look. Most interesting is that Magery, Mage Spells, and Spellcraft all appear to have the exact same bonus/effect on spell strength.

MAGE TESTS UNLOCK DOORS USING THE FOLLOWING VARIABLES.
Mage = Nephil with Natural Mage and Deadeye.

• Doors ALWAYS OPEN when these stats are reached and NEVER open when they fall short.

• Luck has no effect on strength of Mage spells or likelihood of opening doors. Luck = 2 on all tests. Pumping Up Luck as high as 12 makes no difference on multiple attempts where Magery or Spellcraft are only one lower than necessary to open the door.

MAGE OPENS DIFFICULTY 35 DOOR WITH:

Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 5/Spellcraft 18/Magery 4 = 45 Total
Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 5/Spellcraft 17/Magery 5 = 45 Total
Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 5/Spellcraft 16/Magery 6 = 45 Total
Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 5/Spellcraft 15/Magery 7 = 45 Total
Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 5/Spellcraft 14/Magery 8 = 45 Total
Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 6/Spellcraft 17/Magery 4 = 45 Total
Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 6/Spellcraft 13/Magery 8 = 45 Total

Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 7/Spellcraft 15/Magery 4 = 44 Total
Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 7/Spellcraft 11/Magery 8 = 44 Total
Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 8/Spellcraft 14/Magery 4 = 44 Total
Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 8/Spellcraft 10/Magery 8 = 44 Total

Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 9/Spellcraft 12/Magery 4 = 43 Total
Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 9/Spellcraft 7/Magery 9 = 43 Total
Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 10/Spellcraft 7/Magery 8 = 43 Total
Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 10/Spellcraft 11/Magery 4 = 43 Total

Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 11/Spellcraft 9/Magery 4 = 42 Total
Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 11/Spellcraft 7/Magery 6 = 42 Total
Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 12/Spellcraft 8/Magery 4 = 42 Total
Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 12/Spellcraft 7/Magery 5 = 42 Total

CONCLUSION:

• Spellcraft = Magery (Each equally affect the strength of Mage Spells)

MORE TESTS (All totals for these = 44)

Mage Spells 19/Tool Use 7/Spellcraft 14/Magery 4
Mage Spells 19/Tool Use 7/Spellcraft 7/Magery 11

Mage Spells 20/Tool Use 7/Spellcraft 13/Magery 4
Mage Spells 20/Tool Use 7/Spellcraft 9/Magery 8

Mage Spells 21/Tool Use 7/Spellcraft 10/Magery 6
Mage Spells 21/Tool Use 7/Spellcraft 9/Magery 7
Mage Spells 21/Tool Use 8/Spellcraft 9/Magery 6
Mage Spells 21/Tool Use 8/Spellcraft 8/Magery 7

Mage Spells 22/Tool Use 7/Spellcraft 11/Magery 4
Mage Spells 22/Tool Use 7/Spellcraft 7/Magery 8

Mage Spells 23/Tool Use 7/Spellcraft 10/Magery 4
Mage Spells 23/Tool Use 7/Spellcraft 7/Magery 7

Mage Spells 24/Tool Use 7/Spellcraft 9/Magery 4
Mage Spells 24/Tool Use 7/Spellcraft 7/Magery 6

CONCLUSION:

• Mage Spells = Spellcraft = Magery (Each is equivalent for boosting the strength of Mage Spells)

TOOL USE RELATIVE TO MAGE SPELLS/SPELLCRAFT/MAGERY:

Tool Use Jump from 0-1 counts as 2 towards total (extrapolation)
Tool Use Jump from 1-2 counts as 1 towards total (extrapolation)
Tool Use Jump from 2-3 counts as 2 towards total (extrapolation)
Tool Use Jump from 3-4 counts as 1 towards total (extrapolation)
Tool Use Jump from 4-5 counts as 2 towards total (extrapolation)
Tool Use Jump from 5-6 counts as 1 towards total (extrapolation)

Tool Use Jump from 6-7 counts as 2 towards total
Tool Use Jump from 7-8 counts as 1 towards total
Tool Use Jump from 8-9 counts as 2 towards total
Tool Use Jump from 9-10 counts as 1 towards total
Tool Use Jump from 10-11 counts as 2 towards total

CONCLUSION:

• Tool Use point value = 1.5 x Spellcraft or Magery point value

Tool Use = 1.5 x Tool Use points, and the total adjusted points for opening a Difficulty 35 door = 48 points.

Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 12(x 1.5) = 18/Spellcraft 7/Magery 5 = 48 Total

THEREFORE:

Mage Spells 17/Tool Use 12(x 1.5) = 18/Spellcraft 8/Magery 5 = 48 Total

AND FINALLY:

Mage Spells 17/Tool Use 15(x 1.5) = 23/Spellcraft 4/Magery 4 = 48 Total
Mage Spells 17/Tool Use 15(x 1.5) = 23/Spellcraft 8 = 48 Total

These last two combinations represent the minimum Mage/Thief necesary to beat all traps and open all doors in the game. (Tool Use of 15 is required and 17 Mage Spell levels are needed to cast all spells.)

The most efficient way to boost spells is to add whichever is cheapest and avaiable at the moment: more Mage Spells, Spellcraft, or Magery.

[ Tuesday, December 20, 2005 22:39: Message edited by: Synergy ]

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Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00
Student of Trinity
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
 written Wednesday, December 21 2005 00:35 Profile #31
I'm presuming that this is true for all spells, not just Unlock, and that the only advantage of unlocking Magery is that it gives you a second Spellcraft that starts back at low point cost. Is Blademaster perhaps similar?

On the other hand, I tried an experiment with a lowish-level priest casting Repel Spirit, and seemed to get significantly higher damage with (Spellcraft, Magery) = (0,2) than with (2,0), everything else unchanged. There were fairly large random fluctuations in this damage, though, and I didn't get too large a sample of shots each way (fighting Hrickis). So my result might have been spurious.

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Listen carefully because some of your options may have changed.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Thuryl
...b10010b...
Member # 869
 written Wednesday, December 21 2005 00:50 Profile Homepage #32
quote:
Originally written by Student of Trinity:

I'm presuming that this is true for all spells, not just Unlock, and that the only advantage of unlocking Magery is that it gives you a second Spellcraft that starts back at low point cost. Is Blademaster perhaps similar?
I strongly suspect so, since that's definitely how it works in BoA. Taking into account the Pole Weapons requirement, I once calculated that in BoA, trying for Blademaster wouldn't actually be more cost-efficient than just putting another point into Melee Weapons until your Melee Weapons skill was about 14, and even then it'd take several levels to pay off. I estimated that given reasonable assumptions about other stats, going for Blademaster would become worthwhile at no lower than level 40 for a pure melee fighter, and quite possibly higher.

I'm not sure how all of the above translates to A4, but it seems as if it may not be worth meeting the requirements to train in Blademaster. I'm doing fine without it so far, at any rate. (Or to put it more accurately, I'm doing fine with the 8 points of it I'm getting from equipment without having to train in it.)

[ Wednesday, December 21, 2005 00:51: Message edited by: Thuryl ]

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The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Peter Schwier
Apprentice
Member # 6824
 written Thursday, February 23 2006 07:36 Profile #33
Pathfinder does exsist between Gymnasitcs and Magery. I did some tinkering with the scripts to find this out. (I gave ten for every stat between 0 and 99).

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It's amazing what you can find in the script files.
Posts: 1 | Registered: Thursday, February 23 2006 08:00
Kelandon
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
 written Thursday, February 23 2006 07:56 Profile Homepage #34
Funny. You'd think with a new engine he could've just taken out the skill entirely, but no, he decided just to have no way to improve the skill in the game. :rolleyes:

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Ephesos
Law Bringer
Member # 4153
 written Thursday, February 23 2006 10:09 Profile Homepage #35
quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

Funny. You'd think with a new engine he could've just taken out the skill entirely, but no, he decided just to have no way to improve the skill in the game. :rolleyes:
Well, it's not like Pathfinder could even be used in A4. You can't even step on the swampy ground anymnore... I miss that familiar squish sound.

And come to think of it, I don't remember any lava. ANYWHERE. Somebody please tell me I'm wrong in remembering that.

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Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice.
Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00
Or else o'erleap.
Law Bringer
Member # 335
 written Thursday, February 23 2006 12:30 Profile Homepage #36
There is no lava. There are no damaging floors of any kind.

—Alorael, who missed lava too. Swamps still appear, although as an inconvenience rather than a threat. There's not even cosmetic lava, and Avernum isn't the same without it.
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Kelandon
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
 written Thursday, February 23 2006 15:28 Profile Homepage #37
I think that Jeff figured that the new movement system wouldn't work well with damaging floors.

--------------------
Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Dikiyoba
Councilor
Member # 6600
 written Thursday, February 23 2006 15:38 Profile Homepage #38
Based on the one damaging floor type in Geneforge, it doesn't.

Dikiyoba.

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Episode 4: Spiderweb Reloaded
Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00
Walter
Infiltrator
Member # 878
 written Tuesday, March 7 2006 13:02 Profile #39
Thing about those bonus points confusing you about how much more skill you need, is that most traits that add to skills add more points as you go up in levels. Every few levels my two characters with pure spirit and natural mage get bonus levels of mage and priest spells and magical efficiency (I first noticed this when I found my priest could cast mage spells she couldn't earlier). My nephil with nimble fingers and elite warrior keeps getting bigger bonuses to many skills, including bows, tool use, first aid, parry, blademaster, and gymnastics. Also my slith occassionally gets extra levels in pole weapons.

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Warning: Posts may contain misspellinks and typo.s
Posts: 409 | Registered: Sunday, March 31 2002 08:00
Schrodinger
FAQSELF
Member # 3
 written Saturday, March 11 2006 09:08 Profile #40
This is just a quick bump to state that the actual endurance requirements for both resistance and magical efficiency are 10, and not 8. Getting both skills is way too much work.

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A few cats short of a kitten pot pie...

Radioactive cats have 18 half-lives.
Check out a great source for information on Avernum 2, Nethergate, and Subterra: Zeviz's page.
Finally, there's my Geneforge FAQ, Geneforge 2 FAQ, and
Geneforge 3 FAQ.
Posts: 2831 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
Randomizer
Law Bringer
Member # 6785
 written Saturday, March 11 2006 16:56 Profile #41
Resistance requires Endurance, Dexterity, and Hardiness at 8. I know from running a singleton up to get it to test how resisting damage worked as a way to play the game. It doesn't seem to be worth it because by the time you reach that level you need skill points for tool use and spell casting levels in Priest if you want to get Divine Retribution before the end game.

[ Monday, March 13, 2006 17:42: Message edited by: Randomizer ]
Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00
Thuryl
...b10010b...
Member # 869
 written Saturday, March 11 2006 19:04 Profile Homepage #42
Hmm. Schro says it's 10 endurance, you say it's 8. Aren't there two free points of Endurance you can get from scripted events in the game? Maybe those don't count toward the requirements for special skills.

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The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Schrodinger
FAQSELF
Member # 3
 written Sunday, March 12 2006 11:48 Profile #43
Ah- indeed there are. I believe those two points don't cause an increase in the skill point cost either. My calcs were done near the end game. Oh well.

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A few cats short of a kitten pot pie...

Radioactive cats have 18 half-lives.
Check out a great source for information on Avernum 2, Nethergate, and Subterra: Zeviz's page.
Finally, there's my Geneforge FAQ, Geneforge 2 FAQ, and
Geneforge 3 FAQ.
Posts: 2831 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
Beegz
Apprentice
Member # 6933
 written Sunday, March 19 2006 08:23 Profile Homepage #44
Based on Synergy's research plus some of my own with Unlock Doors=2, it appears that you can unlock any door whose level is less than or equal to

Tool Use + 0.75(Mage Spells + Spellcraft + Magery) + 0.25(Unlock Doors - 2)

quote:
Originally written by Synergy:

From an inquiry in the Level 3 Spells thread, I did a little research on some magical variables and Tool Use related to Unlock Doors.

MAGE TESTS UNLOCK DOORS USING THE FOLLOWING VARIABLES.

• Doors ALWAYS OPEN when these stats are reached and NEVER open when they fall short.

MAGE OPENS DIFFICULTY 35 DOOR WITH:

Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 5/Spellcraft 18/Magery 4 = 45 Total
Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 5/Spellcraft 17/Magery 5 = 45 Total
Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 5/Spellcraft 16/Magery 6 = 45 Total
Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 5/Spellcraft 15/Magery 7 = 45 Total
Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 5/Spellcraft 14/Magery 8 = 45 Total
Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 6/Spellcraft 17/Magery 4 = 45 Total
Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 6/Spellcraft 13/Magery 8 = 45 Total

Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 7/Spellcraft 15/Magery 4 = 44 Total
Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 7/Spellcraft 11/Magery 8 = 44 Total
Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 8/Spellcraft 14/Magery 4 = 44 Total
Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 8/Spellcraft 10/Magery 8 = 44 Total

Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 9/Spellcraft 12/Magery 4 = 43 Total
Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 9/Spellcraft 7/Magery 9 = 43 Total
Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 10/Spellcraft 7/Magery 8 = 43 Total
Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 10/Spellcraft 11/Magery 4 = 43 Total

Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 11/Spellcraft 9/Magery 4 = 42 Total
Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 11/Spellcraft 7/Magery 6 = 42 Total
Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 12/Spellcraft 8/Magery 4 = 42 Total
Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 12/Spellcraft 7/Magery 5 = 42 Total

MORE TESTS (All totals for these = 44)

Mage Spells 19/Tool Use 7/Spellcraft 14/Magery 4
Mage Spells 19/Tool Use 7/Spellcraft 7/Magery 11

Mage Spells 20/Tool Use 7/Spellcraft 13/Magery 4
Mage Spells 20/Tool Use 7/Spellcraft 9/Magery 8

Mage Spells 21/Tool Use 7/Spellcraft 10/Magery 6
Mage Spells 21/Tool Use 7/Spellcraft 9/Magery 7
Mage Spells 21/Tool Use 8/Spellcraft 9/Magery 6
Mage Spells 21/Tool Use 8/Spellcraft 8/Magery 7

Mage Spells 22/Tool Use 7/Spellcraft 11/Magery 4
Mage Spells 22/Tool Use 7/Spellcraft 7/Magery 8

Mage Spells 23/Tool Use 7/Spellcraft 10/Magery 4
Mage Spells 23/Tool Use 7/Spellcraft 7/Magery 7

Mage Spells 24/Tool Use 7/Spellcraft 9/Magery 4
Mage Spells 24/Tool Use 7/Spellcraft 7/Magery 6

The most efficient way to boost spells is to add whichever is cheapest and available at the moment...


[ Thursday, March 23, 2006 02:46: Message edited by: Beegz ]
Posts: 5 | Registered: Sunday, March 19 2006 08:00
Azuma Velius
Lifecrafter
Member # 7252
 written Monday, March 17 2008 19:24 Profile #45
I know this is two-years late but Sharpshooter only need two bought values of Dexterity and 8 bought values of Bows/Thrown Missiles..@_@

Bite me..

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But after revenge is taken, nothing remains but a painful scar...
You ain't evil until you hear this!
Looking for group to slaughter the world..
Posts: 732 | Registered: Saturday, June 24 2006 07:00
Or else o'erleap.
Law Bringer
Member # 335
 written Monday, March 17 2008 20:58 Profile Homepage #46
Since this thread isn't about Sharpshooter and it's almost exactly two years old, I award you a warning for flagrant necromancy and put this thread back to rest.

—Alorael, who also proposes an alternate theory to sanity consumption by fluffy turtles. Maybe just like zombies eat brains, zombie threads eat sanity. It could be...
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00

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