Avernum:4 vs Blades Of Avernum which is the best?

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Author	Topic: Avernum:4 vs Blades Of Avernum which is the best?
Slarty Raven v. Writing Desk Member # 261	written Wednesday, January 4 2006 11:51 Profile Homepage #25 I almost brought up Fahrenheit 451 in my own post. God, what an overly relevant book. I have mixed feelings about that thesis, SoT. I don't know that language constrains thought, per se, but it certainly affects and interacts with it. Kel: Classics, eh? Good man. Say, you don't know David Crane, do you? -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 \| Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Kelandon Off With Their Heads Member # 4045	written Wednesday, January 4 2006 11:58 Profile Homepage #26 David Crane? The name doesn't ring a bell. One other thing: English spelling, unlike English grammar, was fossilized to reflect elite pronunciation at one point in time. That much is definitely true, and I'd be in favor of shifting our spelling to a more properly phonetic system (and marking accents, darn it, the way the modern Greeks do). -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 \| Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Student of Trinity Electric Sheep One Member # 3431	written Wednesday, January 4 2006 12:04 Profile #27 quote: Originally written by Kelandon: I don't think so much that we've lost the ability to express things as that we've chosen not to express them anymore. For want of things to express, or by self-censorship? quote: [P]eople ... stopped reading good writing. One thing language change definitely can do is cut people off from past ideas. That's a shame, but on the other hand, translation can save most of the content. And although the poetry does get lost, language change generates new poetry. If Latin had never died, we would all still quote Virgil, but we'd have no Shakespeare. quote: [T]hey're choosing to say things in the most simplistic ways possible. Well, simplistic is bad, but simple is good. I'm actually a fan of saying things as simply as possible. I think this makes for the best, most classic English prose style. (How do you like Hemingway? Or Conrad?) And it is necessary for English's new role as the global lingua franca. quote: It's hard to explain why it's nice to be able to use an elevated register of diction, but I can't shake the feeling that it is nice. Here I'm afraid I have to agree, but I'm not sure why either. It is good that you introduce the concept of register, because the original topic was not really language change but register loss. ("Register" means style of speaking: "Four score and seven years ago" and "a good while back" differ in register.) I keep wanting to say that mastery of archaic or 'elevated' registers shouldn't matter, but then, I happen to have it. If I didn't, I bet I would feel its lack; if it were taken away, I'd feel maimed. The fact is that from an educated audience you can command attention, and even a fair amount of respect, just by executing a few linguistic triple-lutzes in your prose. Doing this always feels like a bug exploit, but it sure comes in handy at times. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 \| Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Slarty Raven v. Writing Desk Member # 261	written Wednesday, January 4 2006 12:13 Profile Homepage #28 Friend of mine from Chicago, he's a grad student there now. shrug Worth a shot. There have been several attempts made to phoneticize English spelling in this country. They all died out pretty quickly, though we can still see the results of one in the White Sox and Red Sox baseball team names. (YEAH sox!) Personally, I think it would be fun to force all languages to transliterate into IPA (the International Phonetic Alphabet), but then, I'm crazy. -- [slar'tUkr] -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 \| Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Student of Trinity Electric Sheep One Member # 3431	written Wednesday, January 4 2006 12:42 Profile #29 The strongest argument I've seen against English spelling reform is a paragraph explaining the 20-year scheme proposed by G.B. Shaw. As soon as it has explained an orthographic change, the explanation implements it from then on. The result is that the paragraph appears to degenerate steadily into gross illiteracy. I'm not saying this argument is strong enough to convince. Only that it's a real factor, which has to be taken seriously in spelling reform, that mastery of English's bizarre spelling is currently used as a cue to the education level, and even the intelligence, of the writer. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 \| Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Kelandon Off With Their Heads Member # 4045	written Wednesday, January 4 2006 12:58 Profile Homepage #30 quote: Originally written by Student of Trinity: Only that it's a real factor, which has to be taken seriously in spelling reform, that mastery of English's bizarre spelling is currently used as a cue to the education level, and even the intelligence, of the writer. People still mishear sounds, though. Even if English were perfectly phonetic, with a one-to-one correspondence between a phoneme and a letter, uneducated people would still mis-spell things because they pronounce them incorrectly (because they've misheard them from youth). Even if one were to assume that spelling is useful in this way, which I think is probably a flawed assumption, I don't think this argument works. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 \| Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Glafna Apprentice Member # 5517	written Wednesday, January 4 2006 14:00 Profile #31 Why is it, that no matter what board or forum, the people posting on it alwayse go off topic and usually ignore the one that tells them to stay on topic? Posts: 49 \| Registered: Friday, February 18 2005 08:00
Thuryl ...b10010b... Member # 869	written Wednesday, January 4 2006 14:36 Profile Homepage #32 Because there comes a point at which there isn't really anything much more to be said about the original topic, and the new topic is more interesting. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 \| Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Slarty Raven v. Writing Desk Member # 261	written Wednesday, January 4 2006 15:12 Profile Homepage #33 Digression is a natural part of conversation, especially in group conversations. It's something that many people appreciate and there's no reason why you wouldn't expect to find it on a message board. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 \| Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Student of Trinity Electric Sheep One Member # 3431	written Wednesday, January 4 2006 15:22 Profile #34 quote: Originally written by Kelandon: quote: Originally written by Student of Trinity: Only that it's a real factor, which has to be taken seriously in spelling reform, that mastery of English's bizarre spelling is currently used as a cue to the education level, and even the intelligence, of the writer. People still mishear sounds, though. Even if English were perfectly phonetic, with a one-to-one correspondence between a phoneme and a letter, uneducated people would still mis-spell things because they pronounce them incorrectly (because they've misheard them from youth). Even if one were to assume that spelling is useful in this way, which I think is probably a flawed assumption, I don't think this argument works. Mai point izn't that it shud bee this wae if wee wur criaeting an aidial languidge, onlee that it kurintlee iz this wae with Inglish. Okay, that's enough of that. Reform the spelling, and people who adopt the reformed spelling will initially look stupid in print. The effect is quite real, even when you know full well that the bizarre spelling is supposed to be the new correct spelling. This is a serious barrier to adoption. It might be possible to overcome this barrier by implementing the reform with glacial slowness, so that the degree of apparent stupidity was always small. But folks who want to fix spelling generally want to do so within one lifetime, and that might not be slow enough. Perhaps the global community of second-language English speakers might gang up to impose spelling reform on international English. Then native speakers might eventually switch over to the international forms. [ Wednesday, January 04, 2006 15:27: Message edited by: Student of Trinity ] -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 \| Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Or else o'erleap. Law Bringer Member # 335	written Wednesday, January 4 2006 15:49 Profile Homepage #35 English spelling is absurd. We borrow, butcher, change at random, and do weird things to our written language. It doesn't bother me too much as a native speaker, but I can see see why a change would be good. It even worked for German, although the situation isn't exactly the same. On the other hand, I can't imagine puzzling through the grotesque transformation of English as someone raised reading it the way it is now. If we could all switch at once, it might work, but I think the overwhelming pressure of actually having to communicate dictates the known evil. I'm not enough of a linguist to opine on the decline and fall of the English language, except that I think that what seems to be the suppression of intelligent-sounding speech is a shame. The loss of standardization is something I don't like on principle, although I don't see any great doom coming from it. Some contend otherwise, and while I don't agree, I do like English with all of its (not it's) P's and Q's and subjects and objects in the right places. —Alorael, who is an unabashed linguistic snob except for the incorrect gender-neutral singular they. Saying only "he" or "she" seems wrong, saying "he or she" seems long-winded and pretentious, and saying "they" doesn't really hurt anyone except those who might be patiently waiting at the bottom of the slippery slope, their (plural) faces screwed up in horror at the split infinitive. Posts: 14579 \| Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Dikiyoba Councilor Member # 6600	written Wednesday, January 4 2006 16:13 Profile Homepage #36 I think there's a difference between slang that is useful and slang that is "cool." For instance, the word skyscraper was once considered slang, but it was usful slang. Using "like" or "homie" every three words isn't usful in the slightest. Dikiyoba is glad we don't have to talk the way we write or write the way we talk. Posts: 4346 \| Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00
Thuryl ...b10010b... Member # 869	written Wednesday, January 4 2006 16:22 Profile Homepage #37 "Like", in some contexts, is practically a non-lexical utterance by now. [ Wednesday, January 04, 2006 16:27: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 \| Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Contra Infiltrator Member # 5785	written Wednesday, January 4 2006 16:34 Profile #38 quote: Originally written by Kelandon: [QUOTE] I just read Fahrenheit 451 a couple of days ago, and the most striking thing about that book is that it wasn't the government that began the censorship — it was that people (by and large, not universally) stopped reading good writing. This seems extremely realistic to me. As far as I can recall, it was both. The people simply decided to do, read and watch the things that gave their brains instant stimuli (like drugs), instead of things that forced them into deep thoughts about philosophy, moral values, life, etc. This made the people dull in mind and body, addicted to that "quick fix". The government simply went along with it, and banned books, seeing that people were much happier (or more "content") with watching mindless television and performing nervstimulating activites than reading books, and so they banned them. People that don't read books don't question society, and if you don't question society, the government is free to do as it pleases. You are right that it seems realistic, I agree fully. This new "reality TV" addiction that has spread across my nation, and many others..It scares me. people would actually watch other people have fun (and gossip about these people, and their plots) than to go out and interact (and do the same things as these people do) themselves. Why do something when you can experience "the same thing", from the comfortable seat of your favorit armchair? Man, and I shouldn't even get started on such barbarism as "Fear Factory". Is this what we pay our TV licence for, to watch other people eat dog feces? Something is very wrong with our society. -------------------- "..The seventh wave of Thrall stumbled and climbed over the slippery, piled dead and Mazzarin saw The Watcher with them and at last knew the number of his days." Posts: 522 \| Registered: Wednesday, May 4 2005 07:00
Or else o'erleap. Law Bringer Member # 335	written Wednesday, January 4 2006 21:11 Profile Homepage #39 We have many meaningless conversational insertions, and I overuse all of them. I mean, you know, like, well, something like this. Pick someone you know well. Someone at least moderately articulate. Strike up a conversation, and then in the middle start counting instances of the word "like." I'm often surprised. It's not only a non-lexical word, it's no longer even a consciously processed word. When I replay speech in my head, the likes are edited out. —Alorael, who wonders if this is part of the reason scripted conversations sound off even when they're well written. They're got all the content but the blank noise is missing. Could there be a reason that conversation has introns along with exons, and what exactly is communicated by non-coding words? Posts: 14579 \| Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Dikiyoba Councilor Member # 6600	written Thursday, January 5 2006 15:15 Profile Homepage #40 I hate trying to write dialogue because it doesn't sound "natural" with the extras taken out but the sentences are hard to follow with all the extras in. Dikiyoba thinks that perhaps "non-coding words" signify acceptance and honesty between peers and nervousness when around superiors. Just a thought. Posts: 4346 \| Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00
Or else o'erleap. Law Bringer Member # 335	written Thursday, January 5 2006 15:27 Profile Homepage #41 What do they signify around inferiors? I certainly haven't noticed any drop in meaningless insertions on the part of any superiors I've had to listen to. [Edit: Half a pair of errors. It could be worst.] —Alorael, who also can't say that all of his superiors have been prone to insertions. Perhaps there is a causal link. If you, like, pare down you language, you could, like, become the boss! [ Thursday, January 05, 2006 16:56: Message edited by: If Alorael and not Alorael... ] Posts: 14579 \| Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Thuryl ...b10010b... Member # 869	written Thursday, January 5 2006 16:00 Profile Homepage #42 Someone's actually written a paper about how people tend to use different kinds of non-lexical sound in different social situations. It's quite interesting, although most of its findings aren't altogether surprising. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 \| Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
SNM Shock Trooper Member # 4239	written Thursday, January 5 2006 16:37 Profile #43 quote: Originally written by If Alorael and not Alorael...: If you, like, pair down you language, you could, like, become the boss! It's "pare." :P And I'm surprised to hear that "like" is such a popular insertion; I thought it was all cool-city-girl talk. "So," "okay", "and," and "cool" seem much more common to me. -------------------- There are two kinds of game players...those who are newbies, and those who were. Posts: 322 \| Registered: Monday, April 12 2004 07:00
Kelandon Off With Their Heads Member # 4045	written Thursday, January 5 2006 17:00 Profile Homepage #44 quote: Originally written by Student of Trinity: Mai point izn't that it shud bee this wae if wee wur criaeting an aidial languidge, onlee that it kurintlee iz this wae with Inglish. Okay, that's enough of that. Reform the spelling, and people who adopt the reformed spelling will initially look stupid in print. The solution, of course, is to adopt a mildly different alphabet at the same time. English has too many sounds for the Latin alphabet anyway (something like forty-plus sounds for twenty-six letters), so we need a bunch of new letters for the sake of one-to-one letter-to-phoneme and phoneme-to-letter correspondence. It looks less silly when it looks like a different writing system altogether. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 \| Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Or else o'erleap. Law Bringer Member # 335	written Thursday, January 5 2006 17:02 Profile Homepage #45 Stringing together separate sentences with "and" is a common sign of a nervous and inexperienced speaker, especially in public. Otherwise, I've usually heard and used as a conjuction. "So" gets used as an all-purpose announcement that words are about to be spoken. I like to think of it as a sort of hwæt according to Seamus Heaney's translation of the first word of Beowulf. "So! I'm talking. Pay attention." "Okay" and "cool" are often noncommittal but rarely non-lexical. I suppose the former is occasionally a semi-lexical prompt to continue. —Alorael, who has heard minimal "like" insertion from people of all ages, genders (all two!) and walks of life. Well, not all walks of life, because he can't really claim to have listened to people of all walks of life, but many. "Well" is an insertion used similarly to but less emphatically than so. Maybe both "well" and "so" should be replaced by "hwæt" altogether. Posts: 14579 \| Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
genexile Warrior Member # 5167	written Thursday, January 5 2006 17:56 Profile #46 I got the answer to all your problems: speak another language, then. You know that you guys (sorry, girls too) are getting REALLY off-topic there? [ Thursday, January 05, 2006 17:58: Message edited by: genexile ] -------------------- Finished Sub2 levels: Shop"keep"er Machinery Complex Machinery Complex2 Machinery Complex3 Machinery Complex4 Munchkin City In progress: None Abandonned: T.E.L.E.P.O.R.T Sub-Way Posts: 80 \| Registered: Saturday, November 6 2004 08:00
Thuryl ...b10010b... Member # 869	written Thursday, January 5 2006 18:11 Profile Homepage #47 This has been pointed out already. We don't care. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 \| Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Slarty Raven v. Writing Desk Member # 261	written Thursday, January 5 2006 18:33 Profile Homepage #48 At this point I think the people pointing out the off-topicality are rather more off-topic. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 \| Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
genexile Warrior Member # 5167	written Thursday, January 5 2006 18:38 Profile #49 So you are, because you pointed me that pointed that it was off-topic. -------------------- Finished Sub2 levels: Shop"keep"er Machinery Complex Machinery Complex2 Machinery Complex3 Machinery Complex4 Munchkin City In progress: None Abandonned: T.E.L.E.P.O.R.T Sub-Way Posts: 80 \| Registered: Saturday, November 6 2004 08:00