Most "Powerful" Class?
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| Author | Topic: Most "Powerful" Class? |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5785
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written Wednesday, May 4 2005 05:44
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Yes, i know that "power" is perhaps not the right word for it but in all games of Geneforge there has been one class that has been atleast slightly easier to play then the others. G1: In my oppinion it was the Shaper, especially back in G1 v1.00 when you could reduce your other traits below starting level and pump up Shaping Skills at 8 from the start (hehe) Nor the agent or the Guardian could pack a punch and survive with ease without speeding, blessing, etc, but the Shaper and his creations could. G2: The guardian, obviously. The extremly overpowered Parry skill made the entire game easy with it's either reflection most of the damage or parrying all of it. I played a few games as Guardian where i could easily beat the game without touching a canister. The Shaper works well and the Agent is still rather useless in my oppinion, too much speeding up, blessing, running and running again. G3: Aww, the Parry skill is no good any longer! Heh. However, the Agent has now stepped up to take the Guardians position. Daze now affects all creations within range, something that makes the Agent uberpowerful. Played as loyalist without useing canisters and it worked out fine. The guardian seems useless without his Parry and Shaper works allright, better then before now that you can use Daze and other mind magic more and let your creations do the hitting. Alright, that is what it hink..Now..What about you? -------------------- "..The seventh wave of Thrall stumbled and climbed over the slippery, piled dead and Mazzarin saw The Watcher with them and at last knew the number of his days." Posts: 522 | Registered: Wednesday, May 4 2005 07:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Wednesday, May 4 2005 06:55
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I haven't felt that any class was stronger than any other in any of these games, inasmuch as I have beaten G1 and G2 with all three, mostly playing on Torment, and it has always seemed about equally difficult, once I had figured out how to play the class. That is, most challenges are quite straightforward, but with each class I've found a few that took some thought. Often what was difficult for one class was not for another. I do think some classes are easier to learn to use than others, and I agree that this varies from game to game. In G3 the new Daze definitely makes the Agent easier to get started with than she used to be: taking out multiple enemies in the early stages of the game is very easy now, where in the earlier games it could get tricky, with a lot of backpedaling. The G3 Shaper seems about as effective as ever, though I'm noticing that it really helps to have Greta along in the midgame, where the fact that Glaahks have no ranged attack starts to hamper you. (Specializing more in Fire Shaping might make Drayks more effective than I'm finding them; for me, they're good, but they often strike late, and not infrequently miss.) I haven't tried the G3 Guardian yet, but a report in a recent thread indicated that Parry was still good, and that it was rather the amount of damage dealt in melee that seemed greatly reduced for Guardians. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 5437
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written Wednesday, May 4 2005 07:53
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I finished GF3 with a Shaper and an Agent. I haven't played with a Guardian, as I am so accustom to shaping creations. My Shaper would always have points in melee, magic and shaping so he could fight for himself. My Agent had points in melee and shaping with an emphasis on magic. Her main attack was magic, but I wanted her to be able to make decent creations as well. Each class comes out more or less equal in level and capability by the end of the game for me. [ Wednesday, May 04, 2005 07:55: Message edited by: Dolphin ] Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 5651
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written Wednesday, May 4 2005 10:06
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Well, I haven't finished any of the series yet, but what I can tell is that Agent seems to be a lot weaker than a Shaper in G2. Alas, I took Magic Shaping wiv Agent, and it seems to me Fire Shaping is better... more powerful all the way along. I mean... alright, my spells might be very effective, but when u consider that the Shaper can be good at magic too, and their Shaping (a much more expensive skill all in all) is cheap, then almost same level (about 25) Shaper is much more better with 4 Drayks and an adopted Huge Roamer(ok, ok, thats a pointless dude). And Agent spells aren't so much better at all. -------------------- In D&D there are lots of gods. Some of them are Jesus Christ and Lucifer, and they have equal power. Players can choose either to worship one of them, and as most of them find it funny, they choose to worship Lucifer. It is one of the ways how pure souls are taken by the devil... Posts: 29 | Registered: Thursday, March 31 2005 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5785
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written Wednesday, May 4 2005 10:49
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In G2, if you want to keep your sanity and avoid canisters and altering then you will have a real damn issue with surviveing since you will not have AoF or Kill nor MM. In G3 the fact that Daze and Strong Daze worke don everyone made me laugh at AoF. Agents in G2 have no way to deal the heavy hits as Guardians nor take the heavy punishment with much health but sitll have to be very personal and attack close to the target (atleast when fanceing ranged enemies), something a Shaper will not have to. As for Parry..In G2 i had Parry 10 and my chance of Parrying a melee attack was 50%(!), then i had a large chance of deflecting damage, a chance of rippost and a chance of old-school avoiding. In G3 i had Parry of 10 and my chance of parrying a melee attack was around 20%. -------------------- "..The seventh wave of Thrall stumbled and climbed over the slippery, piled dead and Mazzarin saw The Watcher with them and at last knew the number of his days." Posts: 522 | Registered: Wednesday, May 4 2005 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 247
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written Wednesday, May 4 2005 13:15
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It is true high parry for a guardian in GF3 does deflect most damage. By most I mean every creature will at least hit you now and again but for say only 5-10 points. The weapons area of GF3 was the weakest portion for any character truly using melee weapons. I only say two types of sword dealing 11-44 damage. That coupled with 15 strength and 20 melee got my guardian maybe tops on a low level monster 60 points damage. Now GF3 lacks in offense for the guardian but defensively nothing really threatened. I had around 400 HPs by games end along with all the blessing magic spells. Oh one note did anybody else notice how healing craft was like the only reward you ever get? I ended with like 13 points in it, without really ever training. "Oh there's another canister giving me +1 in healing yea!" :( -------------------- The Knight Between Posts. Posts: 2395 | Registered: Friday, November 2 2001 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5785
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written Wednesday, May 4 2005 13:41
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Healing Craft was a rather common reward, yes. But are you seriouse that you started to deflect damage more? Because i am sure that the Parry skill did nothing for me untill i got up at like Level 12, when i had a 30-40% chance of blocking an attack. Btw, is it not annoying that almost all canisters you come across increase your abillities instead of Stats? I mean, like i care about getting two more points of Dominate or Essence Orbs? -------------------- "..The seventh wave of Thrall stumbled and climbed over the slippery, piled dead and Mazzarin saw The Watcher with them and at last knew the number of his days." Posts: 522 | Registered: Wednesday, May 4 2005 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 247
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written Wednesday, May 4 2005 14:31
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Yes the canisters were so stupid. Id rather have plus one strength any day than essence orbs. Yes parry does work but like you said it only really kicks in at high levels. But its so cheap any way. Make sure dexterity is high too that helps dodging attacks. -------------------- The Knight Between Posts. Posts: 2395 | Registered: Friday, November 2 2001 08:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Thursday, May 5 2005 15:37
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Whatever else may be true, Agents are definitely not weak in any of these games. Just don't try to make them something they're not, by investing anything in shaping skills. Pump it all into magic, and you're golden. Stay on speed, and keep a high Quick Action, and any doorway or corner makes you completely invincible. My rebel Shaper has reached the Isle of Spears and finally made a pair of Gazers. I cleared the Monastery of Tears on Torment with two Drayks, two Ur-Glaahks, and Greta; it wasn't a pushover, but it didn't take any second attempts. I'm sure I'm nothing special in tactics; my point is that Shapers are fine in G3. I am also just starting with a Guardian, the maximal loyalist. (Since my rebel Shaper was Marius, this is Sulla.) He started with 10 Parry, but so far it only sometimes kicks in - definitely much less effective than in G2. His melee damage is fine in the very early game -- one hit one kill, as with starting Guardians in previous games. I'd forgotten how much fun Guardians were in the beginning game, after playing the other two classes: for a change, attacking things just works. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Thursday, May 5 2005 17:19
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I have long been an advocate of the Agent. I just finished G3. I broke down and bought it. The Agent is still grossly overpowered and if played right, is totally game breaking. The new daze is stupidly good. Started game on Torment. Had some small trouble. When Spellcraft hit 3 to 4 though, stuff started dying. Endgame, with a jacked Spellcraft and high levels of magic, I had firebolts doing over 300 damage a shot... What on earth did Jeff do to the spell system? Essence Orbs was crazy nutty foo foo. I remember back when G1 came out and I talked about how to get 200 damage Essence Orbs... Folk started paying attention to the Agent. Now, those orbs can top out at around 400 or more damage. Dominate seems to be working better as well... Which is both good and bad because in the right hands it's totally munchkin. Terror works well on all those damned servile swarms. I can only imagine what an Agent buffed up on canisters must be like... One shudders. There is one small detail I really like... The ability to put batons or wands into your quick item slot. Thank you so much Jeff... -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 247
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written Thursday, May 5 2005 19:13
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I cleared the Monastery of Tears with my sole guardian no help. I used several essence pods but that was all. As I've said any monster that slows its target is annoying and game-over for a single guardian. -------------------- The Knight Between Posts. Posts: 2395 | Registered: Friday, November 2 2001 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 5667
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written Thursday, May 5 2005 20:18
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quote:My agent was nowhere near that strong by endgame, and I had my magic stats fairly high (playing on "tricky") the most damaging spell, "Kill" did a good 150-200 points of damage, essence orbs where not too far behind when it came to damage, although, I relied much more heavily on mental attacks. -------------------- Whatever happens, happens. Posts: 48 | Registered: Monday, April 4 2005 07:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Thursday, May 5 2005 21:16
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Never waste a single skill point on an Agent. They live or die by skillpoints. NEVER ever put any points into shaping. All you need is a smidgeon of str, a whole bunch into int, mech and leadership to whatever level you are comfortable with, and then pump your magic skills like mad. Get Spellcraft to 10 to 15 if you can, base, more with items. Pump your Battle Magic into the high teens or even the 20s. It's possible. Wear every single magic boosting piece of equipment you can find. You will never ever need points in Shaping, and you need absolutely ZERO points into Endurance. If you play an Agent the right way, your health levels mean nothing. You should blow everything to cinders or completely immobilize everything before it becomes remotely threatening to you. Every point spent in endurace is a massive loss of damage from your most powerful asset. At higher levels where you start getting exponential returns, where your magic skills and your spellcraft are in the teens, just adding a single point to either battle magic or spellcraft can add anywhere between 20 to 80ish points of damage to your attack. Results may vary based on spell. No other character can match this sort of damage output per skill point spent. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Thursday, May 5 2005 23:42
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Impressive! The agent is definitely my preferred class, but I tend to play them like guardians -- with the G2/3 skill point system, their only real physical deficit is 3 or so points of QA and Parry, and little bit of HP, while having better buffs/dazes is super. I always found that melee attacks were more consistent than magic, even for my agents; Firebolt in particular annoys me with its proclivity to miss, and the slower energy restoration rate in G3 makes me less inclined to rely on the stronger spells. However, I've never focused on the magic skills to this kind of degree. Thanks for the idea... I'll have to try this if I play through again. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5785
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written Friday, May 6 2005 03:18
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I don't agree on the endurance part. Maybe i just don't have the nerves of running back and forth, timeing ir exactly so that a creature can't both mvoe and attack me. Me last game with an Agent in G3 i got up to level 40. I had an endurance of 14 with Girdle of Life and Symbiotic Cloak, which served me well. I am unsure exactly how powerful my attacks were in the end game but i think i had Spellcraft of 12 and Battlemagic of 16. Either way it did not matter because Daze took care of any problem i have. I liked the Guardian in G2 because you did not have to do all that fansy stuff, you could just run up, kill any creature with a simple melee attack and survive whatever thrown at you because of your endurance and parry skill. -------------------- "..The seventh wave of Thrall stumbled and climbed over the slippery, piled dead and Mazzarin saw The Watcher with them and at last knew the number of his days." Posts: 522 | Registered: Wednesday, May 4 2005 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5785
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written Friday, May 6 2005 03:24
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I just checked my endgame Agent. Level 39. 370HP 650 Energy 250 or so Essence BM 14 Mental 6 Blessing 6 Spellcraft 10. My essence orbs did on average 150p of damage, which i find is just fine. If you guys got it up to 300 then i am impressed. I had Endurance 14 and even if i dropped that by 8 and put my skillpoints in BM and Spellcraft i still don't think i would have done that high damage. Eitherway my Agent had a whooping easy time even without canisters and a BM of 20. -------------------- "..The seventh wave of Thrall stumbled and climbed over the slippery, piled dead and Mazzarin saw The Watcher with them and at last knew the number of his days." Posts: 522 | Registered: Wednesday, May 4 2005 07:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Friday, May 6 2005 05:21
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I didn't waste points in Endurance with my Agent, but I put a few into Strength, because I hated being encumbered all the time, and a lot into Quick Action (got it up to 15 I think) in order to get the drop on the Golem Monstrosity in the Darkstone Core. Couldn't think of any other way to nail that thing; on Torment, I don't think I could have stunned it enough to survive even if I had put all those points into Battle Magic instead. I had high enough Battle Magic and Spellcraft that I had no complaints about my damage, but I'm pretty sure I never got Firebolt up to 400. And there are quite a few highly resistant creatures in G3 that take shockingly little damage from spells that wipe out most other things. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Friday, May 6 2005 05:29
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Even without adding a single point of endurance, your Agent will be fine... Augmentation. Various armor spells. Daze. Really, when you play her right, she simply doesn't get hit. Much. And stuff that does hit you can be nullified. Agents are best played by being what they are. Paper tigers. Glass cannons. Insanely powerful mages who can also slit throats and clean house when they have to. They are not Guardians or Shapers. While they can melee just fine, don't bother jacking up their melee skills to much. Just a few spare points here and there. Amazingly, with an Agent, you can neglect most of your magic skills as well. Get your mental magic just high enough in the beginning for Unlock, and blessing magic just high enough for speed. Push these skills higher with skill level boosters. Don't bother pushing these any higher. For those of you that really want to see what a well made Agent can do, try it some time. It will be very difficult at first. You will be fragile. Easily broken. Your energy and essence will never seem to last. You'll burn through essence pods like mad. At some point, you will notice that those Searers that drained your energy are not eating into your reserves so badly, and that you are doing about 100 damage a shot with them, with maybe 20 to 40 acid damage on the turn after, if something lives through the initial volley. Burning Spray does amazing damage at higher levels. Fire and forget, and run away. Hide around a corner and wait. Hit space bar a few times and then go collect the loot. [ Friday, May 06, 2005 07:09: Message edited by: Delicious Vlish ] -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5785
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written Friday, May 6 2005 06:11
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Im sure that it can be done that way, im just damn lazy really, i don't got the time and energy to cast Augmentation and Essence Armor as soon as i enter a new area. But i will try it with my new Rebel Agent and report how it works out. -------------------- "..The seventh wave of Thrall stumbled and climbed over the slippery, piled dead and Mazzarin saw The Watcher with them and at last knew the number of his days." Posts: 522 | Registered: Wednesday, May 4 2005 07:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Friday, May 6 2005 07:08
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Something awful has been done to turrets. Highly magic resistant. Something to think about for G4. Some sort of lower resistance curse or spell. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 4404
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written Friday, May 6 2005 20:25
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I've always thought Agent to be the best. They kinda suck early on, but late game they are great. You can have pretty good melee skills, great magic and a few friends to help (I usually used the acid worm guys) -------------------- People says Microsoft paid 14 million dollars for using the Rolling Stones song "Start me up" in their commercials. This is wrong. Microsoft paid 14 million dollars only for a part of the song. For instance, they didn't use the line "You'll make a grown man cry". Posts: 42 | Registered: Wednesday, May 19 2004 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5785
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written Saturday, May 7 2005 03:29
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The game was kinda "made" for the Shaper class. The Shapers have it easiest most of the time, since they can just send someone out to fight for them. -------------------- "..The seventh wave of Thrall stumbled and climbed over the slippery, piled dead and Mazzarin saw The Watcher with them and at last knew the number of his days." Posts: 522 | Registered: Wednesday, May 4 2005 07:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Saturday, May 7 2005 08:14
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Actually I think that it is harder in the end-game for Shapers, because they have to use an army of creatures. That means that it's really hard to do the shoot-and-duck manoeuvre with all of them -- there aren't that many handy corners at every fight. And it's also really hard to get all their dexterities high enough to do the infinite-AP trick, or get their energies high enough to exploit it. In the later stages of the game there are lots of fast enemies that you can just mow whittle down with a fast Agent or Guardian, but which always get their licks in at your creatures. Ah, but having said that, what am I saying? The Drakons do keep blasting on my Gazers, in a way my Agent never let them, but my Gazers laugh at the Drakons' piddling damage, and cut them down with their counterstrikes. After a bunch of fights my Gazers run out of energy, but so did my Agent; the trip back to the essence pool is just a bit more tedious with a squad than with a singleton. I guess all I'm saying is that it seemed harder, because the enemies sort of looked like they were actually fighting back. In reality, they didn't stand a chance; even when the Alpha Creator had six deadly monsters stacked up against me at a time and my Gazers were running low on juice, the fact was that the Gazers were so darn tough, they could just suck up the damage for a few rounds, using their melee attacks, until they powered up enough to finish the fight with ranged blasts. Plus my pair of experienced and Essence-Armored Ur-Glaahks were good at picking up the slack while the Gazers wheezed. It was an exciting battle with the Shaper, and I did lose Greta; but in retrospect I don't think it was nearly as close as it seemed. With the Agent it was sort of tense but monotonous: ducking and blasting, again and again and again, with the only suspense lying in whether my energy would last. Once it became clear that it would, the thrill pretty much faded. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Saturday, May 7 2005 11:03
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While not the most powerful, and slightly off topic, the Guardian finally has some fun potential. With the ability to craft wands, crystals, rods, and magic casting items, the Guardian has a way to use magic with out wasting points in magic skills. And with the ability to switch weapons, tactics have changed considerably. Before, getting to your intended victim was always the worst part. You might get there, and not have enough AP to attack that round. Next round comes, and you get pasted. Now, you can hang back and cut loose with wands or batons, which do a LOT more damage now, and let monsters come to you. And when they do, you can cut them down with a simple weapon swap.This changes the dynamic considerably in favour of a Guardian. I am playing one right now. A Rebel Guardian, a canister crazy nutcase. Terror wands do a LOT of damage as well as paralyze the target. Dicipline wands do brutal ammounts of damage. Jacking up your missile skill is a worthwhile investment. Being able to make your own ammo is a wonderful game improvement and a whole lot of fun... It really adds to the Guardian class a whole lot, as it fits their theme of being rugged individualists who live by their wits. My canister crazy Guardian much prefers missiles over melee, for the time being, and hunts with a pack of viscious Roamers, his hounds. And a single Terror Vlish. Is it just me, or do the melee weapons kind of suck for most of the game? I know you can add spines, or acid, or fire or cold damage, but I mean raw damage output... I seem to get more consistant damage output using missiles than I do using toe to toe melee. At least, that is what I am noticing on Torment. And with things like crystal weapons being so easy to make, it really tips the scales for a "Hunter" Guardian. It's very easy to stockpile ammo. Looking back on my Agent game, I realize how many green gems I sold to merchants for cash and wince at how much potential firepower I sold. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 4506
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written Saturday, May 7 2005 11:04
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The only one complaint I have about agent (as I always play them), is that they don't have any male pictures. It's just one DAMNED UGLY female! - Archmagi Micael -------------------- "You dare Trifle with Avernum?" ~ Erika the Archmage -------------------- My Scenarios: Undead Valley : A small Undead problem, what could possibly go wrong? -------------------- Richard Black - PROOF of his existance (the Infernal one's website). -------------------- MY FORUM! Randomosity at it's highest! :) Posts: 1370 | Registered: Thursday, June 10 2004 07:00 |
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