Most "Powerful" Class?
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| Author | Topic: Most "Powerful" Class? |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5785
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written Saturday, May 7 2005 13:31
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Did they up the baton damage aswell? Because seriously they need to fix that or remove it from the game alltogether. Why should use a baton or a wand when i got my own magic and shapeing that do such better damage? Honest to god i have NEVER used a wand, ever. Not since G1 was released all those years ago. I have used a reg baton once or twice in G2 (litterary, once or twice.) And gems? Never. One time i used a Ice Gem in a pinch, other then tat i just sell them for the little cash they are worth. Either jack them up or remove them. -------------------- "..The seventh wave of Thrall stumbled and climbed over the slippery, piled dead and Mazzarin saw The Watcher with them and at last knew the number of his days." Posts: 522 | Registered: Wednesday, May 4 2005 07:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Saturday, May 7 2005 14:13
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quote:My Guardian was doing 40 to 80ish damage in the beginning with Icy Gems. Damage seems to have been ramped up considerably. Now he does over 100 regularly with just a plain Icy Gem and mid level Missile skill. Pumping Dexterity also increases missile damage a good bit. The game is finally doing what it should have been doing all along... And I agree, in G1 and G2, gems, batons, and wands were mostly useless. It's a welcome improvement! -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Saturday, May 7 2005 18:34
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In the early game missile weapons, especially the crystals, seem an amazing deal: good fast ranged damage cheap. Just one or two points in Ranged Weapons and you seem to be a decent archer (er, crystaler?) for a long time. But you do have to keep building up your Missile Weapons, or you find them really petering out in the later stages of the game, as their damage plateaus and they start missing more and more often. It's good to hear that missile weapons become worthwhile for the Guardian, since that doubles the Guardian tactical options. But it's disappointing to hear that melee is really poor now, because I think you deserve some premium in return for taking the risk of getting in close, and expending the AP needed to do so. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Saturday, May 7 2005 19:13
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There is something wrong with the melee system. I... I can not quite put my finger on it, but, when I go toe to toe melee with a rather beefy Guardian, on Torment, I get shredded. I don't remember it ever being quite this bad... Maybe not enough prebuff because I completely ignored my magic skills in favour of doing what the Guardian does best. The Guardian is no Agent, and no Shaper. He can emulate an Agent with the use of magical items... And can, infact, do respectable damage with them, providing that he really crank out the dexterity and missile weapons skills... I am not sure how on earth dexterity would ever effect a magical skill, but this is a fantasy world so physics need not apply I reckon. He can create suitable tanks to hold the front lines while he pelts stuff with a painful barrage of assorted missiles... Shaped lances do gross numbers of physical damage. And in G3, he has finally come into his own I think. I could never stand the Guardian in G1 and G2... They had severe shortcomings, and were just to painful to play. It took me a while to adapt the playstyle to actually make it work, but, there is a formula that one can follow to achieve results. Namely, play similar to an Agent and pump every spare point into Missile and Dexterity skills. As an extra added bonus, getting slammed with an Icy Crystal three or four times in one round completely freezes a foe solid... The stun effect is really a life saver when dealing with the hard and heavy hitters of the game. Some critters will resist. Wands of Inferno are great for emergencies... I have scored flamestrikes of about 200 damage or so so far on some foes. With 16 or more action points, you can throw a LOT of crystals in a single round. Or fire a lot of missiles. In some ways, once you figure out what you can do and what you can not do, and know the ins and outs of hit and run effects, this playstyle of Guardian really shines, and finally shows the Guardian class for what it was meant to be. A scout, a hunter, and a killer. While he is no Agent, he is at least now fun to play. Good to get into character for. And it was a whole lot of fun to send in a half dozen Pyroroamers to assault Master Hoge. "What? Huh? Purple dogs? You assault me with purple dogs? How dare you! I'll show you..." BOOOOOOOM!! Sorry about that last bit. I have a thing for sending Pyroroamers to attack stuff... Although I have been hoisted by my own petard. It's all part of the fun. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Sunday, May 8 2005 04:40
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Having missile options is great, but there is still something wrong if I can do more damage with a javelin than with a Guardian's Claymore. The ideal would be for hand-to-hand to do more damage, but not so much more that it wasn't often worth standing back and thinning out the enemy from range before closing. Could any betatesters maybe enlighten us about the thinking that went on over this issue? -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Sunday, May 8 2005 04:54
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Well, I wasn't a betatester, but one point that comes to mind is that wands run out of energy and batons run out of thorns, while you can keep swinging a sword around all day. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Monday, May 9 2005 12:20
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The problem with relying on crystals is that there are only so many of them. They are plentiful, yes, especially if you take the time to forge extras (ugh) and there are plenty for tough fights, but not enough to use against regular enemies. I suppose using a melee weapon you haven't supported with too many skill points is okay against them, but any other primary attack you put points into -- whether magic, melee, or shaping -- is freely available 24/7. Heck, there are so many essence pods in G3 you don't even have to restrict yourself to the weaker spells. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Monday, May 9 2005 13:04
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You don't have to "rely" on crystals. They are just one item in your arsenal as a whole. Batons, javelins, wands, etc, all make for a blisteringly powerful offense. More so than melee attacks. Point. Click. Kill. And with Parry being nerfed to the point of being pointless... Might as well go ranged. Torment is nasty, stuff hits hard. Best way to avoid being hit is to just not be there. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5785
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written Wednesday, May 11 2005 02:35
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I think ie of crystals and wands, even if they do more damage then a GC. Why? Because othervise they are worthless. A Shape and Agent got their own magic, and can thus sell the crystals, but Guardian don't have magic so they can use the crystals well, especially combined with the Missile Weapon skill that was in the two past games totally pointless aswell. -------------------- "..The seventh wave of Thrall stumbled and climbed over the slippery, piled dead and Mazzarin saw The Watcher with them and at last knew the number of his days." Posts: 522 | Registered: Wednesday, May 4 2005 07:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Wednesday, May 11 2005 03:44
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You're saying that it's good that crystals are now valuable at least to somebody? I guess I'd agree. I always used to love Icy Crystals in the early game, then get some use out of Spray and Swarm Crystals a bit later, but soon forget all about them because they'd start to just miss all the time, or do negligible damage if they hit. With my Agent and Shaper in G3 I did the same, but it's beginning to look as though with my Guardian I'll need to keep using them. Which is fine, since there are a lot of them in the game and it's a shame for them to go to waste. So far Guardians really do seem a fair bit tougher to play in G3 on Torment. Partly this is because I munchkined out initially by pumping Parry to 10, and in retrospect this was a waste of points I now wish had gone into Endurance, Dexterity and Missile Weapons. Anyway, even with my buddy Alwan along, the Vlish Woods on Harmony was extremely tough for my Guardian, where it was mostly a pleasant stroll in the park viewing Vlish-stains for my previous two characters. So far I am still finding that my melee attack is very solid. It seems to be roughly comparable to an Icy Crystal, but I don't throw away my Steel Dagger with each strike. Maybe once I live down my ill-conceived Parry obsession, and get some points into better skills, things will ease up. I actually found it quite helpful to create a Thahd recently. So it may be that Guardians in G3 will turn out to be heavy users of equipment, including missile weapons, who also keep a few creations around. As long as my melee attack never becomes pointless, I'd agree with Delicious Vlish that the new Guardian is much better. The G2 'Colonel Matrix' singleton Guardian was fun, but a bit too easy with high Parry, and too much like an Agent in playing style (just substitute 'charge' for 'Firebolt'). -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Wednesday, May 11 2005 03:59
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All those points in parry are wasted IMHO. Dump ten points in dexterity and you start becoming very hard to hit. And this serves a dual purpose... Not only are you more protected, but you get free damage and accuracy to boot, so that's a three to one return for pumping a single skill. Oh, and make sure you pump luck a bit. With a decent luck skill, you can get more regeants dropping, like Vlish bits or artilla chunks. Which means more crafted weapons. Which means more firepower. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5785
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written Wednesday, May 11 2005 12:54
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Since the Guardian has been weakened with Melee and Parry it should only be natural that he started to use Missile Weapons like an Agent uses Battle Magic, correct? Does this eliminate the purpose of a Guardian, since it is now basicly just another Agent? -------------------- "..The seventh wave of Thrall stumbled and climbed over the slippery, piled dead and Mazzarin saw The Watcher with them and at last knew the number of his days." Posts: 522 | Registered: Wednesday, May 4 2005 07:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Wednesday, May 11 2005 13:13
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Yes and no. The Guardian I think, has finally come into his own. While he can be incredibly powerful casting spells through items, he can also do considerable damage with javelins and batons, making him the king of physical damage, and a close second to the Agent in terms of magical damage. He is not a weak Agent or a poor Shaper by any means, a "Hunter" Guardian is an experience unto itself. Long ago, in G1, there was an expression for the Guardian. If you can reach it and attack it, it will die. Or something to that effect. If you failed to reach it in that round, there was a chance that you would die. Missiles change this dynamic. If you have a clear shot... Something is going to get blown to bits. I am of course, talking about higher difficulty levels. Torment. Maybe Tricky. At lower difficulties, heck, you could finish the game with a dagger most likely. And yawn the whole way. It's only fun when something is capable of hunting you... And there is a good chance that it may win. The element of crafting all your own ammo and weaponry is what makes this a fun, even addictive experience. Makes the game worth paying for. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5785
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written Wednesday, May 11 2005 13:43
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I don't play on Torment, i always play on Normal, somehow i feel like it makes the game unfair to me to play on a harder level. Question: Does increaseing Diff give more XP or more creations to kill and thus more XP? -------------------- "..The seventh wave of Thrall stumbled and climbed over the slippery, piled dead and Mazzarin saw The Watcher with them and at last knew the number of his days." Posts: 522 | Registered: Wednesday, May 4 2005 07:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Wednesday, May 11 2005 18:51
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I still think that the Guardian needs to be good in melee in order to be different enough from an Agent. High damage from missiles is still too much like high damage from spells, except that when Agents run out of spells they can just ... wait. The difference of having to scrounge or make missiles is a difference of tedium as much as in anything else. Higher difficulties do not raise experience awards. They just make the game more difficult. Geneforge games on Torment are really quite different from Normal in a lot of ways. You really have to think about a lot of battles, and you often have to explore in combat mode because you have to make contact on your own terms every time. There's a lot more suspense when you're creeping up on something that can kill you with one hit. You get to see the same story on lower difficulties, of course, and if you aren't quite familiar with how the games work then Torment really is unfair on yourself. But if you can handle Normal easily, give Torment a try. It's more fun once you get used to it. [ Thursday, May 12, 2005 12:42: Message edited by: Student of Trinity ] -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5785
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written Thursday, May 12 2005 13:56
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I always end up playing all FPS (First Person Shooter) on highest diff, because it is more of a challenge. However, turnbased games just feel slightly more annoying on higher diff since you have to watch your back all the time, reload even more and always pump up in every benefit you can, blessings, speed and whatever.. Like i have said before, i don't got that patience. -------------------- "..The seventh wave of Thrall stumbled and climbed over the slippery, piled dead and Mazzarin saw The Watcher with them and at last knew the number of his days." Posts: 522 | Registered: Wednesday, May 4 2005 07:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Thursday, May 12 2005 14:21
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Well, to be fair, normal and easy are just that. To easy. Really, normal should have it's difficulty bumped up a bit to make it 'normal.' This game, by descriptions in the game, is full of life and death struggles to survive. Coming out of the school on normal, you can pretty much steamroll everything right out of the box with very little effort. There are no real consequences for your mistakes. It is not a realistic experience. Normal should be more like Tricky difficulty. Tricky should be more like Torment. And there should be something else after that for gluttons for punishment. You are, after all, some shmuck apprentice, and the game should reflect that. Your creations should not be all powerful. You should have to make sacrifices, take losses, and occasionally get your rear end kicked. As an apprentice, you should be scared poopless about coming out of the school into a woods full of rogues. And you shouldn't come out of the school with 2 or 3 Fyoras with Alwan and just start walking around like you own the place. You should have your behind handed to you on a platter, simply because you are just some shmuck apprentice. Or, as a Guardian, you shouldn't be able to single handedly wipe out the first island with nothing but a dagger and a cheesy grin. If you charge headlong into a nest of rogues, you should have your head handed to you in the bucket it comes in. Your starting apprentice firebolt spell should not be toasting rogues in a single shot... Mowing down endless hoards with a wave of your hand. Your firebolt shot should really piss something off and give it some singed fur or burned scales, and make it really mad at you. In short, playing at higher difficulties makes the game feel like it should be. A life or death struggle, winner take all. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5785
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written Thursday, May 12 2005 15:03
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If you want realism, why not point out the fact that killing eight worms as an Agent in the basement of your school with firebolt can suddenly gain you the abillity to shape fire creations better. -------------------- "..The seventh wave of Thrall stumbled and climbed over the slippery, piled dead and Mazzarin saw The Watcher with them and at last knew the number of his days." Posts: 522 | Registered: Wednesday, May 4 2005 07:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Thursday, May 12 2005 15:20
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Who is dumb enough to add to shaping skills as an Agent? -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5785
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written Thursday, May 12 2005 15:24
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That is kinda beyond my point, fact is that you can just suddenly learn it without even picking up a spellbook. -------------------- "..The seventh wave of Thrall stumbled and climbed over the slippery, piled dead and Mazzarin saw The Watcher with them and at last knew the number of his days." Posts: 522 | Registered: Wednesday, May 4 2005 07:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Thursday, May 12 2005 18:40
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Naw, it's not that incredible. In the pressure of actual combat with magical creations, you suddenly realize some vital points about shaping ... One reasonable interpretation of the PC is that you are some kind of lazy genius, or at any rate a genius who only really thrives when forced to deal independently under stress. So maybe you kind of knew a lot of things all along, but never bothered to really get them completely straight in your head until now, when it suddenly really matters. That sort of thing. It's a little bit odd, but it's above the threshold of rationalizability. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 247
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written Thursday, May 12 2005 19:07
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I always feel that "Normal" is how the game was meant to be played. Maybe this isnt the case but I haven't tried torment in any of the Geneforge games. -------------------- The Knight Between Posts. Posts: 2395 | Registered: Friday, November 2 2001 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Thursday, May 12 2005 19:15
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Once again, this problem is not unique to Geneforge. This is really endemic to (almost all) RPGs. Years and years ago someone noticed that the game is more fun when your characters grow a lot. Realistically, of course, that's not going to happen very quickly, and it's a lot less likely to happen from adventuring than from training. I think there are multiple mages in every Exile/Avernum game who comment derisively on adventurers who build their magical skills by combat rather than by study. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5785
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written Friday, May 13 2005 00:09
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If that was the case, SoT, then should not outsiders combating creations be able to glean atleast some part of how to make creations? Atleast those allready skilled with how to work essence (i.e mages). -------------------- "..The seventh wave of Thrall stumbled and climbed over the slippery, piled dead and Mazzarin saw The Watcher with them and at last knew the number of his days." Posts: 522 | Registered: Wednesday, May 4 2005 07:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Friday, May 13 2005 02:49
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Well, it's abundantly clear in the games that your PC already has some kind of 'basic training' level of shaper indoctrination, enough to be immune to Vlish mental effects and so on. It isn't really made clear, but this could well be quite a substantial body of expertise. Presumably the outsiders don't have enough of anything like this base to advance as well as you do. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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