How about new BoA scenarios?
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| Author | Topic: How about new BoA scenarios? |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5132
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written Tuesday, December 12 2006 12:10
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Believe it or not, I am actually considering making the scenario after the one I'm currently working on for BoA (Not the one I'm currently working on), the reason being I'm seeing better BoA scenarios coming out, and the idea for the setting of my fifth scenario might be really cool in 3D. No promises, though, but chances would be better if that editor remake is done after my current BoE scenrario is released. -------------------- "Let us see what the new day brings." - Temas, Areni. Visit my realm! Rate My Scenarios! Fort Emerald Robbery The Nephils' Defense The Final Spire The Fifth Tower of Magi The Portal Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, October 25 2004 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 4153
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written Tuesday, December 12 2006 12:53
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quote:So, in other words, chances are fairly low? :P -------------------- Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice. I hate undead. I really, really, really, really hate undead. With a passion. Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 5294
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written Tuesday, December 12 2006 13:46
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I'll probably release the scenario I'm working on also (Amnesia). Don't know when (got most of the town/city laid out, won't have any outdoors), but it took me almost 3 weeks to get some custom graphics created/finished. Still need to populate, setup dialog and flesh out the plot. Similar to what Nikki x has planned, it will have no combat (the coding for that is finished - I take away all equipment/magic at the start, give it back when you finish). I'm leaning at a March/April time frame, depending on how often I can work on it between work and family. Posts: 30 | Registered: Wednesday, December 15 2004 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 7662
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written Wednesday, December 13 2006 01:46
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Yes, Kel, I have tried it on a few scenarios, the process is quite straightforward, that is why I know it only takes a few seconds.* An entire scenario appears as if by magic, granted it may not be terribly playable. The conversion I find technically fascinating, trying to express apples as oranges. Thralni, entire towns had to be re – done? I haven’t heard about that, I don’t know why this might be. There may be problems with translation of terrain perhaps; it can look pretty shapeless after porting. One problem that can’t be solved easily is the fact that in BoE the party occupies only one space while it is exploring, unlike Avernum. Another problem is that the current Windows version of the official editor wrongly rotates the coordinates of all town specials! (The dubious thrills of ported dialog scripts?!? I have zero literary talent; I have trouble writing appropriate questions for the scripts. By contrast, deciding upon which states to give each node is not too hard.) Custom graphics, thank God for Blazing Blades and the Louvre, even so there are many graphics that have not been translated yet. Undeniably, porting is not always easy but a large number of the problems in porting come from errors in the way the translation is done. They would be easily fixed by revising the porting process itself. This will frequently, but not always, require re – writing the editor. A few can be removed by hex – editing the existing editor. Errors that can’t be fixed will always occur in the same situations, so they are at least perfectly predictable. The scripts generated by the porting process always need to be revised; an example at random is the move_to_new_town call. In Avernum this can be called only one way, so you would need to find a place to put a new special node. Another example is type 63, the trap node; here you must create a terrain script with all the relevant details. The finishing touches for an entire scenario could take a few weeks easily. Translation of objects: terrain, monsters and items. This is done by a set of tables, it is a one on one process, and an Exile object is given a single Avernum translation. It is simplistic, based upon default objects when every big league Exile author used / uses custom objects. In actual practice the translations can be customized even without a new editor.** A quick bit of hex – editing of the translation arrays is all it takes. Said arrays can be found at the following locations in the official editor: short old_monst_to_new[256] = {…} is found at line 6,734 column 47 through line 6,741 column 67. short old_ter_to_floor[256] = {…} is found at line 6,741 column 69 through line 6,749 column 19. short old_ter_to_ter[256] = {…} is found at line 6,749 column 21 through line 6,756 column 41. short old_item_to_new_item[400] = {…} is found at line 6,756 column 43 through line 6,768 column 02. These arrays can also be found in source file Bl A Fileio.c, from lines 122 thru 275. *Fine print 1, I am assuming that there are no complications like monsters or doors outside of town boundaries. **Fine print 2, deciding how to translate the custom objects does take some doing. Even with all the relevant data copied into an Excel spreadsheet, it takes me a while to decide. My approach is to copy the data from the scenario exs file then compare it with the default BoE data. Posts: 292 | Registered: Monday, November 13 2006 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Wednesday, December 13 2006 02:46
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There are some fairly critical differences between BoE and BoA that you're overlooking. For example, BoA makes a distinction between terrains and floors, while BoE doesn't. In BoE, a wall has thickness but no directionality -- a wall takes up one space, and a north-south wall is the same as an east-west wall. In BoA, a wall has directionality but no thickness -- a wall exists on a floor space but doesn't prevent creatures from occupying that space, and a north-south wall isn't the same as an east-west wall or a corner wall. This is why towns have to be redesigned; a BoE town will be ported into BoA with gaps between all the walls, which just looks weird in BoA. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 6700
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written Wednesday, December 13 2006 07:08
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It's a little relieving to know that you've at least done your background work on the theory behind porting. The question becomes, however, if the changes that you say need to be made can be done in a timely and practical fashion. And then, once said changes are made, if the porting process is still practical. What we've all been trying to tell you is that in our experience, porting was more hassle than having the ported scenario was worth: one might as well start bulding the ported scenario from a fresh file, with all of the time and effort that it takes to turn the port into something functional, let alone aesthetically pleasing. As things currently stand, we might as well make our own original scenarios. However. As progress is seldom made without getting outside of the box, I'd like to encourage you to look at practical applications of what you've come up with. And then, try to apply them. People tend to be a bit more receptive if you have a working prototype; so find someone (I'm afraid that I would not know who to ask) who would be willing to make the program adjustments, and then do a port. Figure out what went wrong and what could be done better, and then do it again. If you can make the process practical and demonstrate it to the community as such, you may be able to change our outlook on porting. If not, well, you can either give up, decide that porting is ineffective, or try a new approach. Welcome to Spiderweb. Leave your sanity at the door, if you've not done so already. And get cracking, because right now, you may be the only one who believes in this cause. -------------------- The Silent Assassin has gone out to rent a dunk tank, so that he may reverse engineer it. I do hope that he will not be trying to prank the local church fair again this spring... the gatorade in the water gun arena was bad enough. -------------------- -Lenar Labs What's Your Destiny? Ushmushmeifa: Lenar's power is almighty and ineffable. All hail lord Noric, god of... well, something important, I'm sure. Posts: 735 | Registered: Monday, January 16 2006 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Wednesday, December 13 2006 07:27
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quote:Misleading, I said. Running the importer takes a few seconds. Porting a scenario takes much, much longer. But if you feel like porting a bunch of scenarios, by all means, do it. There's no one stopping you. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 6700
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written Wednesday, December 13 2006 10:12
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You know, I think some terms need to be defined here. Importing is the automated process of converting an .exs file to a .bas file plus scripts. This is done when you click the "Import a Blades of Exile Scenario" option. Porting is the manual tailoring of an imported scenario by a designer so that the scenario is compatable with and functional within the BoA script system, world engine, and isolinear aesthetic. -------------------- The Silent Assassin got into a car accident. He accidentally locked himself in my t-bird's trunk. Yeah. I'm waiting for the explaination on this one. -------------------- -Lenar Labs What's Your Destiny? Ushmushmeifa: Lenar's power is almighty and ineffable. All hail lord Noric, god of... well, something important, I'm sure. Posts: 735 | Registered: Monday, January 16 2006 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 4153
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written Wednesday, December 13 2006 11:04
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Ishad, I support your ideas, but I don't think I could really help much. I'm interested in seeing if you can get a smallish scenario successfulyl ported, though. Lenar, that's awesome. -------------------- Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice. I hate undead. I really, really, really, really hate undead. With a passion. Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 7662
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written Wednesday, December 13 2006 20:25
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Right, the wall problem is what you guys were talking about, I become indifferent to it. I don’t think it can be solved in the near future, how do you program aesthetics into the editor? (Symmetry is aesthetic to me but programming it could be tough.) Granted the town walls are usually a pill, but I have a shortcut for cave walls. Use the cave floor(BoE) from the Blazing Blade for the floor then couple this with conventional walls. Here I am relying on my ability to customize the translations. In porting I am really thinking of the greatest Exile scenarios, ones that are worth the effort. At some point I will have to finish the three way guide, this compares the BoE Editor Help file descriptions of the BoE nodes, the Bl Fileio.c source code translations for them and the descriptions of the BoA calls. Posts: 292 | Registered: Monday, November 13 2006 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 3442
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written Thursday, December 14 2006 06:47
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This topic has inspired (wrong word, but meh :P ) me to try porting a smallish BoE scenario, just to see how hard it is. So, I chose 'Bandit Busywork' (hey, I'm a sucker for alliteration). After using the import tool (in the normal editor, the 3D one didn't like me doing it), I quickly realised things aren't all that terrible. It looked workable, terrain-wise at least, and I thought I may even be able to work around some of the scripts. So I dived in. Terrain isn't a problem, although I have had to lose a few specials because of the different terrain types (being able to walk through trees, for one). In fact, from the aesthetic point of view, it all seems okay. I've not done everything yet, but it's doable. Then I realised that I don't have the notes for the scenario. Meaning that I don't know what any of the flags are for, unless I run through all of the scripts and manually make a list (which isn't a problem for this scenario, but would be for bigger ones). The biggest problem I can see is the fact that it's not my world. I'm just prettying it up. From a design point-of-view, I could port the damn thing. I just don't really WANT to. Yeah, so this is neither interesting nor funny. But still. Porting can be done, and it's not terribly hard if you're porting rubbish that nobody wants to play :P -------------------- And when you want to Live How do you start? Where do you go? Who do you need to know? Posts: 2864 | Registered: Monday, September 8 2003 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Thursday, December 14 2006 09:08
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Just writing a guide for porting is useless. If you want there to be more ported scenarios, port something yourself. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 7662
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written Friday, December 15 2006 02:00
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The 3D editor is wonderful, except for porting, where it crashes infallibly. It has never worked for me once. One thing missing from Avernum is the Exile type 4: secret door node. One substitute is to design a specific terrain, tree or whatever, that can be walked through. Another approach is to have two (or more) out_move_party(x,y) nodes represent this feature, one node on each side of the terrain. Another solution is to have the terrain toggle to type 0, when the party activates a certain node. The snag here is that the party activates a special encounter before it steps into a square, this could be bad if they step into the square activating the node above. (The party is standing in the square containing the toggled terrain, which is currently type 0, it moves onto the special node, the terrain where they are standing is toggled back to impassable terrain, they can’t move anywhere. Unless they have an item that permits uses of the out move party(x,y) call, with random choices of x,y.) One likely problem: porting a scenario where you don’t have the list of what SDF, Stuff Done Flag, coordinates were actually used. Mercifully, Blades of Avernum has three times more places for the SDF flags than were found in Blades of Exile. If you want to add new flags to a ported scenario you just use coordinates that are found in BoA and not in BoE. As far as I can tell, any SDF should be safe if it has a 10+ second coordinate, if it is of the form (X,10+). Other than that, you will have to learn what they do the hard way. Many of them will be self explanatory, used to record the displaying of one – shot messages. From the list of Rated BOE Scenarios: Bandit Busywork - 3.91 (8.5/2.0). So this is not from the top ten scenarios. Unless you are the author you are doing someone else’s world of course. If you want the top – notch authors to ever port their own work, it helps if the basic method has been developed and demonstrated beforehand. I have mostly finished a port of River and Leaf, it really could do with some cut scenes&. (Also having trouble trying to use some BoE graphics from the Blazing Blades, grass is a lot brighter than everything else.) Posts: 292 | Registered: Monday, November 13 2006 08:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Friday, December 15 2006 06:34
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Originally by Ishad Nha: quote:What's wrong with the secret door wall terrain that already exists? That's what Jeff used to port the first three standard scenarios. Dikiyoba. Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 3442
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written Friday, December 15 2006 06:51
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quote:Also, it's easy to make trees and rocks and stuff that you can walk through by editing the terrain in a custom data script. -------------------- And when you want to Live How do you start? Where do you go? Who do you need to know? Posts: 2864 | Registered: Monday, September 8 2003 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Friday, December 15 2006 09:02
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BoE actually had a special node to make it possible to walk through things that weren't walls, like trees or rocks; using a wall in place of a tree would look quite odd. Yes, it's easy to make a special terrain to substitute, which is what Ishad Nha suggested, if you read carefully. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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