What's your opinion...
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Shaper
Member # 7472
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written Saturday, October 7 2006 18:50
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What's your opinion on porting towns? -------------------- I tried to think of something witty to put here. Needless to say, I failed. Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |
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The Establishment
Member # 6
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written Saturday, October 7 2006 20:50
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Porting is a neutral tool depending on its intent and could be used for good or bad scenarios. Care to explain the situation of what is being ported and why? -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7472
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written Saturday, October 7 2006 21:01
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I was actually just trying out the feature. One of the towns, though (DWtD: Cavern of Bones) was actually perfect for a town I had in mind. With heavy modification, of course. I'll post a side-by-side comparison of the original town and my modified version tomor... well actually later today. It's way too late here (1:50 AM) and I really need some sleep. [ Sunday, October 08, 2006 09:51: Message edited by: Nioca ] -------------------- I tried to think of something witty to put here. Needless to say, I failed. Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Saturday, October 7 2006 21:09
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How bad is it that Dikiyoba first misread it as "What's your opinion on port towns?" and thought, "Well, they should be built next to water..."? Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 4153
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written Saturday, October 7 2006 21:29
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Well, fresh and new towns are very much appreciated in a serious work... but creativity seems to be at a premium nowadays. :D -------------------- Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice. I hate undead. I really, really, really, really hate undead. With a passion. Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00 |
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The Establishment
Member # 6
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written Saturday, October 7 2006 21:37
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Original towns are usually preferable in my book. However, if you modify the town quite heavily I suppose that would be okay. If I were voting in a contest, it would probably be a small negative. Either way, I'd use the port town from other scenarios (at least ones that are not yours) sparingly. The exception is that if the adventure takes place in the exact same place as a previous one, then it's okay. Nonetheless, enough should be original work that it does not appear to be a blaitant copy. -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7472
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written Sunday, October 8 2006 08:56
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Here is a before and after picture of the town. On the left is the original from DWtD. On the right is the modified version in Agadia Isle.  -------------------- I tried to think of something witty to put here. Needless to say, I failed. Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 6670
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written Sunday, October 8 2006 09:24
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Pretty heavily modified in my opinion, to the extend that I wouldn't notice any porting unless someone pointed it out to me. -------------------- High Speed Train Could Reach Valley in Five Years - Headline Posts: 1509 | Registered: Tuesday, January 10 2006 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7472
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written Sunday, October 8 2006 09:57
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Also, you can see a screenshot of the ported town here. It's the second screenshot. -------------------- I tried to think of something witty to put here. Needless to say, I failed. Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 5814
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written Sunday, October 8 2006 10:13
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I know this isn't the topic, but now that those screenshots have been brought up I want to say that the third screenshot displays an area sort of like Rentar's fortress in Undead Valley. And as Thuryl more or less once said, "the BoA community generally takes poorly to weird **** for the sake of weird ****" in reference to unrelated monsters being in the same place. -------------------- quote: Posts: 1115 | Registered: Sunday, May 15 2005 07:00 |
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The Establishment
Member # 6
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written Sunday, October 8 2006 10:22
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Just to expand, the "one wrong step could result in a painful death" sounds a little too unforgiving and unfun. But yeah, I'd agree, if you have monsters together they need to be explained rather than just a bunch of monsters for the sake of combat. -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7472
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written Sunday, October 8 2006 11:22
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quote:Then it's a good thing that dungeon isn't combat-oriented. Sure, there's a few fights. But do you honestly think that an enemy isn't going to place a few guards near the heart of it's complex? quote:While there are both Undead and Vahnatai in this scenario, I assure you that this is NOT Undead Valley. For one thing, the Vahnatai aren't the main antagonists, and there is no mention of Rentar-Ihrno anywhere. Yet, anyway. However, she is not connected to the story line, and never was. quote:That is actually somewhat exaggerated. You can make mistakes in that puzzle, but you're definitely going to pay for them. It's just that "one wrong step could result in a painful death" sounds far better than "two or three wrong steps could result in a painful death". And if I truly wanted to make it difficult, I could force the entire party to try to get through the beams. Getting through there just takes observation and timing. Though extra AP can help. -------------------- I tried to think of something witty to put here. Needless to say, I failed. Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 4153
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written Sunday, October 8 2006 11:55
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quote:But I see gorgons, undead, and spiders. Those are unrelated, more or less. They shouldn't be in the same section of the dungeon, at the very least. quote:I just hope you know what you're doing with those two forces. quote:That screenshot is terror incarnate, in the sense that it makes me fear for my sanity. I wouldn't want to take a single step into that dungeon if my party's lives depended on it. Oh, and that first screenshot? That huge tower is going to keep the party from seeing itself if it walks behind it. Thought you should know. -------------------- Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice. I hate undead. I really, really, really, really hate undead. With a passion. Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7472
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written Sunday, October 8 2006 12:17
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quote:That was in reference to the thir screenshot (the one with the beams.), not the second. The Undead, Gorgons, an Netherspiders are under strict mental control, just like the Vahnatai. quote:That beam puzzle doesn't consist of the entire dungeon. In fact, that's the final puzzle for that dungeon. And if it's any indicator, the script name for it is 't4puzzcomplex'. And it's a very good thing then that only one party member can enter. quote:You can't walk behind the lighthouse, though. There is really only one spot where your view of the party is obstructed. -------------------- I tried to think of something witty to put here. Needless to say, I failed. Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Sunday, October 8 2006 12:37
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Edit - To answer your first question, you have successfully hidden that your town is ported. Make a not in the town script file to the effect that it was copied and modified and you are fine. Original message follows.... It hard to quantify gut reactions, but I've got to keep increasing my post count at all costs. Shot 1 - The lighthouse. The visual on that actually heightens (!!!) anticipation for what is to come. Make whatever is at the top exciting, new, and part of the overall plot. See CV for what not to do. Shot 2 - Wave after wave of guards is dull. Disparate groups of creatures, make no sense to me. If you want to provide a challenge, do something creative with scripting. Use 10 archers/spellcasters with a sniper script. Have them retreat when the party gets to a certain blue special location. Have a set of heavy infantry try to stop the party. Use a death_state which allows another infantry creature to "plug the line." Have the whole thing end up being pointless when the gate/door is blocked from behind and unusable. Don't use mind-controlled monsters that traditionally appear deep underground when you are presenting a scenario that takes place on a surface island. (Please.) Shot 3 - Too damn busy. No force that has the capacity to mind-control monsters is going to waste the economic resources to build that crap. Goblins are far cheaper. I realize it is neat and exciting to use beams. But don't. Beams for the sake of beams are dumb. Use the "bridge of faith" from IJ:Grail idea for your puzzle design. Simple and elegant is always better than complicated and busy. But, keep going and keep asking questions. Encouragement, encouragement, etc, etc. ;) [ Sunday, October 08, 2006 12:41: Message edited by: Jumpin' Salmon ] -------------------- quote: Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 5814
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written Sunday, October 8 2006 12:54
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quote:[/b] I don't care about whether the dungeon is combat-oriented; I care about the fact that gorgons, undead, and spiders do not exist in the same area peacefully. quote:Okay, sure. The scenarios may not be related plot-wise. But I was talking about the use of beams, portuculi, and waterfalls. The fact that they're all in straight rows shows that you haven't yet learned to mix up your tiles or localize them. Instead of thinking, "Okay, how can I paint this entire town/section?", try thinking "Okay, how can I paint this window?". It allows you to focus and develop small details, instead of creating one giant and bland blob. After surfing your site some more, I'd also like to point out that almost all (if not all) of the graphics you are hosting are edits of Spidweb graphics. Yet you make no mention of Spidweb and ask that credit be given to yourself. [ Sunday, October 08, 2006 12:57: Message edited by: Swashbckler ] -------------------- quote: Posts: 1115 | Registered: Sunday, May 15 2005 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7472
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written Sunday, October 8 2006 13:27
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quote:Actually, I have replaced the original basicnpc with a main creature script of my own, elitenpc. Also, you're not actually supposed to fight those monsters in the screenshot, at least not directly. I just wanted a good combat screenshot. quote:Gorgons are both on the surface and in Avernum. Undead can appear anywhere, and Netherspiders don't even exist in Avernum. And it's not like I'm using Netherbats, or NetherGIFTS. quote:But the monsters have to come from somewhere. The complex this takes place in is a Barracks/Lab/Fortress/Monster Factory, all built under a mountain. You don't think that's going to take a lot of power? quote:I don't call 48 hours of coding so that the beams fire in a specific and precise pattern 'exciting'. And they aren't beams for the sake of beams. quote:Most of the puzzles in that dungeon are simple and elegant. Or at least simple. quote:Thanks for pointing that out. I'll fix it as soon as I can. [ Monday, October 09, 2006 17:04: Message edited by: Nioca ] -------------------- I tried to think of something witty to put here. Needless to say, I failed. Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5132
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written Sunday, October 8 2006 14:31
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quote:I don't think that's necessary. People have edited SW graphics and called them their own since 1998. Why should it be any different now? [ Sunday, October 08, 2006 14:34: Message edited by: BainIhrno ] -------------------- "Let us see what the new day brings." - Temas, Areni. Visit my realm! Rate My Scenarios! Fort Emerald Robbery The Nephils' Defense The Final Spire The Fifth Tower of Magi The Portal Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, October 25 2004 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 5814
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written Sunday, October 8 2006 14:37
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It's not necessary, but surely you agree that it would be more proper? -------------------- quote: Posts: 1115 | Registered: Sunday, May 15 2005 07:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Sunday, October 8 2006 14:47
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Originally by Nioca: quote:I do believe you're very near the line that separates getting others' opinions from talking about your scenario. :P quote:This is the second time you've stated that you're going for effect with your screenshots. I can't speak for anyone else here, but I would really rather see a plain, honest portrayal of the scenario than a misleading impression of it. Yes, Dikiyoba is being slightly nitpicky. Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5132
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written Sunday, October 8 2006 15:09
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EDIT: Nevermind [ Sunday, October 08, 2006 15:12: Message edited by: BainIhrno ] -------------------- "Let us see what the new day brings." - Temas, Areni. Visit my realm! Rate My Scenarios! Fort Emerald Robbery The Nephils' Defense The Final Spire The Fifth Tower of Magi The Portal Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, October 25 2004 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7472
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written Sunday, October 8 2006 15:22
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quote:I'm pretty sure we already crossed that line. quote:I said you shouldn't fight them. However, you can if you want. The screenshot description says that you could easily get overwhelmed. EDIT: Those darn Graemlins... [ Sunday, October 08, 2006 15:24: Message edited by: Nioca ] -------------------- I tried to think of something witty to put here. Needless to say, I failed. Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Sunday, October 8 2006 15:23
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quote:Right, well, I assume that you are learning to make scenarios so that people can play them. So far several people have told you that they will not play certain types of scenarios, and then went on to describe how they believe your efforts will likely not be played as well. ... ... That fact, and the notion that you have to defend and correct, should be an indicator that you may want to rethink parts of your efforts. Not all of it, and maybe not even parts that some people find objectionable. But you definately have some issues that need to be worked out. If you come to this community asking for opinions, you will get them. If you ask for help, you will get it. If you decide to ignore the community, is it likely that you will be ... ignored? -------------------- quote: Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7472
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written Sunday, October 8 2006 15:27
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[quote=Nioca? :confused: Your opinion is incorrect because of alpha, beta, and you never even considered gamma. But since I mentioned gamma I might as well describe it for the first time.[/quote]I don't think I ever said that... You can't make a scenario that meets everyone's tastes, no matter how good you are. And please remember, this is my first scenario. I'm not aiming for having the best scenario, I'm aiming for at least halfway decent. EDIT] Come to think of it, this isn't the first time someone quoted somebody else and said it was written by me. EDIT 2: May I point out that this thread was about opinions on porting towns, not my scenario's plotline. [ Sunday, October 08, 2006 16:03: Message edited by: Nioca ] -------------------- I tried to think of something witty to put here. Needless to say, I failed. Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Sunday, October 8 2006 17:58
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Nioca, nobody's saying you can't make your scenario the way you want. But if you link to screenshots on a BoA forum it seems reasonable to expect some feedback! That said... another monster factory?!? I realize that the last SIX games Jeff has made (not counting BoE and BoA, and probably seven with Geneforge 4) have all revolved around some version of monster factories. But there are really very few reasons one would exist. "Revenge on an entire race and/or civilization" (see Avernum 3, Avernum 4, Geneforge 2, Geneforge 3, Geneforge 4) works, I guess, if that's your thing. But just think about the story you are putting together. It has to make sense, it has to be believable in the context of your fantasy world, for it to really engage players. Similarly, while undead CAN appear anywhere, they don't just appear randomly. That goes doubly for gorgons, exotic-sounding spiders, and Vahnatai. Mind control or no mind control, it would take an awfully complicated backstory to convince me that anyone would reasonably use that particular combination of creatures as minions. Why those? Why not creatures from less far away? This is not YuGiOh; throwing monsters together for no reason destroys your atmosphere. Not to mention, mind control over all those creatures, particularly the Vahnatai, sounds like an insanely powerful ability. I'm just sayin'. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |