I Want to Crush Your Dreams.

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AuthorTopic: I Want to Crush Your Dreams.
Guardian
Member # 6670
Profile Homepage #100
I recently finished reading the Editor manual and have a vague storyline in the works. However, it will be at least a few days before I can package it down to one paragraph as Prometheus suggested.

In the meantime, I'd like to make two observations/suggestions:

1: All the experienced designers are berating the newbies for planning this epic setting that, ultimately, will never get published. My approach is slightly different. Once your grand epic is completely thought out, partition it into several episodes, or 'mini-scenarios' (this is part of the reason I can't provide a plot right now: my idea involves a reoccuring villain over 3-4 scenarios, and while I have a basic idea for #2-4, #1 is still vague).

2: My other idea is creating 'drop-in' dungeons instead of full blown scenarios. For instance, before the grand epic is created, make a 32 X 32 alternative to Warrior's Grove. Or make your standard goblin dungeon that other designers can import into their scenarios as side-quests.

Just a couple thoughts that might improve the chances of newbie designers (myself included) actually getting published.

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Posts: 1509 | Registered: Tuesday, January 10 2006 08:00
Agent
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Profile #101
quote:
Originally written by Hawk King:

You know what really made me mad ? when I couldn't contain items in the big cauldrons I mean Iv got this cauldron And it very clearly has stew in it but is there any food in it nooo it's empty! what's with that Im very obsessed with my town design and that just Grind's my gears
It's not as if you'd let the party pick up the stew... right? I mean, they're not going to bag it and wander around with it, are they?

Unless you're saying that you'd like to contain things in the stew, as if you were hiding things in them. Like, say, a key. But what adventurer has time to pan through a pot of broth looking for rings and keys?

[ Saturday, January 14, 2006 19:53: Message edited by: Knotty ]

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quote:
Originally written by Kelandon
Well, I'm at least pretty

Posts: 1115 | Registered: Sunday, May 15 2005 07:00
Off With Their Heads
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Profile Homepage #102
1. It's important to make the first part able to stand alone, though. You have no idea if you're going to make that second, third, fourth part. Besides, other designers have had really bad experiences starting a series with their first scenario (Creator, for one/two).

2. These usually are lame, at least judging from what people have done in BoE. Not saying it can't be done well, but it's unusual.

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Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
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Originally by dintiradan:

quote:
Once your grand epic is completely thought out, partition it into several episodes, or 'mini-scenarios' (this is part of the reason I can't provide a plot right now: my idea involves a reoccuring villain over 3-4 scenarios, and while I have a basic idea for #2-4, #1 is still vague).
You could do a mini-series, but every scenario would have to stand alone and be able to be played in any order. So they could be related but they really couldn't be parts of the same plot. It seems like having installments of the same plot would be more limiting than freeing.

Originally written by Hawk King:

quote:
You know what really made me mad ? when I couldn't contain items in the big cauldrons I mean Iv got this cauldron And it very clearly has stew in it but is there any food in it nooo it's empty! what's with that Im very obsessed with my town design and that just Grind's my gears]
There is something you could do if you wanted to take the time. Either create a special encounter around the cauldron or when the party looks at the cauldron (specobj script) that either gives food (Empire Archives in A2 has that and Holding Cells in Valley of the Dying Things has something similar), or use Thuryl's suggestion to create a cauldon container.

Dikiyoba would like to see a special enounter where the party sneak a ladleful of stew and then is whacked over the head with a rolling pin by the watchful cook. Sometimes, the little things are better than the big things. No one expects the little things.
Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00
Master
Member # 5977
Profile Homepage #104
I was wondering if any of you could help me with something. I have a small questin that involves the plot o my scenario:

The party, after they have spoken to the villain, who punishes them for thei deeds, are thrown in a place were they have to escape. When they escape, they have to return to the mayor they are doing the quest for. For summary: they have met the villain, have beaten to death, escaped from a dangerous pit, want backup of an army before they go there again. What does the mayor say and how should I continue? I planned the army that gives support when once again entereing the villain's castle and how they get their, but I have no idea what way I should let the mayor react. You come into her office with torn clothes, saying you saw the villain. is that very believable? Does she curse you fo ruining the carpet? or is she caring and listens to your story? i have no idea. Any suggestions?

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Posts: 3029 | Registered: Saturday, June 18 2005 07:00
...b10010b...
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Make the party gather evidence of the villain's actions. If they were observant during their original escape, maybe they found some then. If not, well, they have to sneak back in on their own and bring some.

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Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 1249
Profile Homepage #106
quote:
Originally written by Dikiyoba:

Originally by dintiradan:

quote:
Once your grand epic is completely thought out, partition it into several episodes, or 'mini-scenarios' (this is part of the reason I can't provide a plot right now: my idea involves a reoccuring villain over 3-4 scenarios, and while I have a basic idea for #2-4, #1 is still vague).
You could do a mini-series, but every scenario would have to stand alone and be able to be played in any order. So they could be related but they really couldn't be parts of the same plot. It seems like having installments of the same plot would be more limiting than freeing.

But still, the "series" approach is quite possible and there are examples of this in existence (among Blades of Exile scenarios, at least). Alcritas' Arc series has to be played in certain order, or at least part of it, and every scenario contains its own little story, which is part of a larger story. They are still popular scenarios.

The "drop-in" dungeons are also something that's been made for BoE (like the Tower of Magi), though they haven't been used in new scenarios for a long time.
Posts: 259 | Registered: Saturday, June 1 2002 07:00
Master
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Profile Homepage #107
quote:
Originally written by Thuryl:

Make the party gather evidence of the villain's actions. If they were observant during their original escape, maybe they found some then. If not, well, they have to sneak back in on their own and bring some.
That's quite a good idea. thanks, Thuryl. So now you can prove that your story is in fact true. How should the mayor react to that? happy that you found out who is behind all the mess? Should she be angry? What do you guys think?

And then what. She reacts to that and you ask her for backup before you enter the place again. Does she simply say "take 500 men and scare the hell out of the villain," or does she want you to do something before she gives you control over the army? the place is at war, so just assigning you as commanding officer seems foolish.

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Play and rate my scenarios:

Where the rivers meet
View my upcoming scenario: The Nephil Search: Escape.

Give us your drek!
Posts: 3029 | Registered: Saturday, June 18 2005 07:00
The Establishment
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Profile #108
quote:
And then what. She reacts to that and you ask her for backup before you enter the place again. Does she simply say "take 500 men and scare the hell out of the villain," or does she want you to do something before she gives you control over the army? the place is at war, so just assigning you as commanding officer seems foolish.
Generally, adventurers are good at stealthy things. Now having backup seems reasonable to do heavy fighting against an opposing army. You could have someone else command you know with the task of the forces supporting your objective to defeat the villain.

I would avoid an intermediate quest. It usually just serves as filler.

As for the mayor's reaction, it depends on the personality of the mayor and the relation with the mayor to the villain.

[ Sunday, January 15, 2006 10:38: Message edited by: *i ]

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Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
Infiltrator
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Profile #109
quote:
Originally written by Dikiyoba:


Originally written by Hawk King:

quote:
You know what really made me mad ? when I couldn't contain items in the big cauldrons I mean Iv got this cauldron And it very clearly has stew in it but is there any food in it nooo it's empty! what's with that Im very obsessed with my town design and that just Grind's my gears]
There is something you could do if you wanted to take the time. Either create a special encounter around the cauldron or when the party looks at the cauldron (specobj script) that either gives food (Empire Archives in A2 has that and Holding Cells in Valley of the Dying Things has something similar), or use Thuryl's suggestion to create a cauldon container.

[/QB]
.... All i was saying is that i want to put Food in a pot that clearly contains food..... Wow

quote:
Dikiyoba would like to see a special enounter where the party sneak a ladleful of stew and then is whacked over the head with a rolling pin by the watchful cook. Sometimes, the little things are better than the big things. No one expects the little things
Now this I like I may do that

And thuryl That is what I meant i was just annoyed that jeff changed it as I remember being able to look inside the pots in A1 or something.

And pyrogs tower (I don't care if I spelt it wrong it's been a while since i played anything but blades) the stew pot in A1 was cool

[ Sunday, January 15, 2006 11:20: Message edited by: Hawk King ]
Posts: 507 | Registered: Tuesday, March 1 2005 08:00
Councilor
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All I'm saying is that it could be done if you really wanted/needed to put food in a cauldron. For one of my experimental scenarios, I created a whole town with custom light sources that could be turned on and off. It was too complex, labor-intensive, and long to be used widely but it was possible. With a little more effort, I could probably have made lights that turned off during the day and turned on at night. Lots of things are possible in BoA. They just may not be good ideas or worth the time to carry out.

This is getting ridiculous. Dikiyoba must stop posting and do actual work.
Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00
Infiltrator
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I'm pretty sure there is no dynamic lighting in BoA. In other words, lighting is calculated once and then left alone. Changing terrains and floors that give off light won't have any effect.

You can still get your desired effect in this case. Just make the default terrain be the light-giving one, and switch it to the non-light-giving terrain in daytime. Then you'd see the light at night, and in the day you wouldn't notice the overlap of, say, a lamppost, and daylight. You'd just have to make sure to switch to the turned on lamppost as soon as it got dark out so that you wouldn't have a turned-off lamppost giving off light.

[ Sunday, January 15, 2006 12:57: Message edited by: wz. arsenic... ]

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Posts: 508 | Registered: Thursday, May 29 2003 07:00
? Man, ? Amazing
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In Mages of Cattalon there is food concealed within cauldrons. Not sure you would want to eat it, but it is food.

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quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

Well, I'm at least pretty sure that Salmon is losing.


Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Guardian
Member # 6670
Profile Homepage #113
I apologize for not making myself clearer before. The plotline I'm playing with right now has been narrowed to three separate scenarios. All three take place in different settings (two in Avernum, one in Valorim). The only thing tying the scenarios together is the villian (who has separate plots in each scenario) and a few NPCs.

Anyways, here is my 'thesis' for #1. Please feel free to comment, insult, whatever.

The Heroes are hired to investigate miners disappearing in an Avernum town. When they arrive, the town SEEMS completely empty, but they find cave with hibernating Vahnatai and a shattered Crystal Soul. As heroes investigated the C.S., living V. stumble on them and attack. Heroes must prove their innocence and discover the mystery behind these two separate events.

A few added twists: Heroes discover that the task of saving the town becomes MUCH easier with a Vahantai artifact (makes Black Shades and Guardians visible). They have three options: trudge their way through the town, trying to find both solutions at once; attack the Vahnatai and get the artifact, making the town easy to save but possibly starting another Avernum/Vahantai war; or 'steal' the artifact, hoping the Vahnatai forgive them when they present proof that they didn't destroy the Crystal Soul.

(This way, the approach isn't as much Good/Evil. It's more Brute Force/Stealth).

One other thing: the villain in these three scenarios will be a deceiver/illusionist. Kelandon, is there any Homeland Slith words that could work for this? Possible meanings could be 'wielder of shadows', 'master of shadows', etc. Thanks a lot!

Thus endeth the post (yes, yes, it's longer than one paragraph).

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[ Sunday, January 15, 2006 15:06: Message edited by: Dintiradan ]
Posts: 1509 | Registered: Tuesday, January 10 2006 08:00
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Yay! I just finished my scenario's third dungeon. Too bad it still has a long ways to go... Hopefully, I will work on scripting/dialoguing a town next weekend.

Just posting something about Dikiyoba's scenario makes it more likely that Dikiyoba will actually finish it.
Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00
E Equals MC What!!!!
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Profile Homepage #115
quote:
Originally written by BainIhrno:

I'd like to point out that Ash has been gone for a really long time. I sure hope he comes back, though.
I was missed. Yay.

In other news, I approve heartily of this topic.

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SupaNik: Aran, you're not big enough to threaten Ash. Dammit, even JV had to think twice.
Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00
Triad Mage
Member # 7
Profile Homepage #116
Dintiradan - It sounds much better after a second or third read-through ;) . Will the party eventually discover the link between the two events? And why is the villain a Homeland Slith?

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"At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander
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Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00
Guardian
Member # 6670
Profile Homepage #117
Sorry Drakefyre, again I didn't make myself clear. The villain is NOT a homeland slith, but an old enemy of them. At a risk of providing a spoiler to all who wish to play my trilogy when it (hopefully) comes out, here is the basic storyline:

Remember Adze-Haakai? The demon who was second-in-command to Grah-Hoth in A1? While he was killed in A1, he wasn't destroyed, and has come back (remember, Grah-Hoth also wasn't destroyed, only slain). Basically, Adze-Haakai was the first to come through the gate in A3. When the Heroes came to the Tower, Adze fled (he knows how deadly Heroes can be). Adze is still obeying his master's last wishes (eternal vengance against Avernum) and does this by war-mongering. In scenario #1, it's with the Vahnatai. In #2, it's with (pending). In #3, the Heroes try stop Adze from summoning Grah-Hoth (for what, the 5th time?).

One concern I have is this: I haven't played A4 yet. Does this storyline conflict with the events in A4 (just answer YES or NO; A3 was ruined for me when I found out early who was behind things).

I'll be posting this on the old and new thread, both still seem to be active.

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Posts: 1509 | Registered: Tuesday, January 10 2006 08:00
Agent
Member # 5814
Profile #118
SPOILER POST
quote:
Originally written by Dintiradan:

In scenario #1, it's with the *ah*ata*.
Yay! For once, they aren't the archvillains! Maybe you could make it seem like they were the antagonsists and then change it around suddenly, by presenting the true enemy? You could mock A3 (and, from what I hear, A4), UV, and all the other games with them as the antagonists.

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quote:
Originally written by Kelandon
Well, I'm at least pretty

Posts: 1115 | Registered: Sunday, May 15 2005 07:00
Triad Mage
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Profile Homepage #119
Conflicts: Not really

As for the Vahnatai, I'd advise you to read this article about Vahnatai and at some point (it doesn't need to be right away) make it clear that it's a misunderstanding/set up.

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"At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander
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Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00
Guardian
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I was planning on my scenario using a new tribe of Vahnatai (maybe the ones in VoDT), since the old ones are basically already at war with Avernum.

Now that I look at Drakefyre's article, it works even better: in VoDT, the Vahnatai mentioned that they are looking for Resting Vahnatai. I'm thinking of even using those specific NPCs. Comments?

As for Knotty's comment, the reason Adze is using the Vahnatai is their extreme sense of honour (they're more likely than any other species to start a war).

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Posts: 1509 | Registered: Tuesday, January 10 2006 08:00
Law Bringer
Member # 4153
Profile Homepage #121
quote:
Originally written by Dintiradan:

since the old ones are basically already at war with Avernum.

Uh... that bit kind of contradicts with A4. The majority of the vahnatai have dropped the whole "war with Avernum" thing.

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Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00
Triad Mage
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Profile Homepage #122
There was never any real war against Avernum by Vahnatai or a clan as a whole.

After Avernum 2, a group of Vahnatai left the Olgai clan to follow Rentar-Ihrno and exact their revenge against the Empire. They were considered rogue Vahnatai. {*AVERNUM 4 SPOILERS*} (highlight text to read) After Rentar-Ihrno's defeat, an even smaller group of Vahnatai led by Rentar led an attack on Avernum's people and cities but were defeated. They were opposed by most of the Olgai clan. {/SPOILERS}

As for using the same NPCs as in VoDT, I don't think that's really a good idea, especially if you're setting your scenario in Avernum. They can be from the same clan, which would make sense for them not to really know about Avernum or previous encounters of Avernites with Vahnatai.

Vahnatai have a large sense of honor, but more important to (most of) them is wisdom. There was infuriating inaction from the majority of the Olgai clan which led to Rentar-Ihrno splitting off in the first place. I would suggest emphasizing the sacred nature of Crystal Souls and the unfathomable intentional destruction of one rather than an 'honor feud'.

[ Monday, January 16, 2006 11:01: Message edited by: Drakefyre ]

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"At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander
====
Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy
Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet
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Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00
Off With Their Heads
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Or you can simply say that this new clan of vahnatai has a different culture from the others that have been known so far and make up your own mind about what they value and what they believe.

[ Monday, January 16, 2006 11:14: Message edited by: Kelandon ]

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
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Shh! Don't give Dintiradan too many ideas. I'm doing a scenario with a different culture of Vahnatai.

The little of the Vahnatai culture we see in VoDT seem very similar to the Olgai Clan. Except that they weren't very hostile yet. The pollution of their lands probably wouldn't give them a good view of people, so the destruction of a Crystal Soul could easily lead to a massive search/infiltration party sent to figure out who is responsible and to bang a few heads together...

Dikiyoba.

Edit: Sig change.

[ Monday, January 16, 2006 13:18: Message edited by: Dikiyoba ]
Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00

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