Bahs help

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AuthorTopic: Bahs help
Master
Member # 5977
Profile Homepage #0
I'm really getting crazy of the Bahsikava deeps! How am I supposed to live long enough to get to the dragon! I keep slaying myself!

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Posts: 3029 | Registered: Saturday, June 18 2005 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 4153
Profile Homepage #1
Okay, I think I know where you are. If this is the part where your lead character gets possessed and tries to kill the rest of you, then you just need to take away all of their weapons before they get possessed. Alternatively, you can just switch your weakest PC into the lead spot.

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Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice.

I hate undead. I really, really, really, really hate undead. With a passion.
Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00
Master
Member # 5977
Profile Homepage #2
quote:
Originally written by Ephesos:

Okay, I think I know where you are. If this is the part where your lead character gets possessed and tries to kill the rest of you, then you just need to take away all of their weapons before they get possessed. Alternatively, you can just switch your weakest PC into the lead spot.
That was something I didn't thought of. I did take all his weapons, porions, wands and other valuable items, but it didn't really help. He was just to strong. I think I'll switch him with the Nephil then. Without his bow, he's almost useless.

Before I read your post, Ephesos, I already defeated the drake lord, but he still managed to kill a character of mine. I did defeat him though. I think I'm gonna repeat the fight, becasue I hate it when a character of mine dies and I can't get him back to life again.

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Play and rate my scenarios:

Where the rivers meet
View my upcoming scenario: The Nephil Search: Escape.

Give us your drek!
Posts: 3029 | Registered: Saturday, June 18 2005 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 4153
Profile Homepage #3
quote:
Originally written by Thralni, emperor of Riverrod:

I hate it when a character of mine dies and I can't get him back to life again.
Yeah, that goes for me too. I tried that fight quite a few times before I found a way to do it without getting slaughtered.

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Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice.

I hate undead. I really, really, really, really hate undead. With a passion.
Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00
Shaper
Member # 6292
Profile #4
I am very near to this showdown in Bahs myself, but have been taking a break from finishing the scenario. Suddenly I found myself bored fighting golems. Actually, it appears I must contend with more undead before the drake.

Aha, I knew from peeking at other posts or reviews that at some point your lead character gets turned against you in Bahs. I thought that was over with early on in the lower caves when your lead disappears and turns against you near the evil altar. Apparently, then, Kel has inflicted this challenge upon us twice, eh?

So, what I am wondering then, not having actually fought this last battle yet, is how could someone expect to walk into the fight and actually through strategy on the fly manage to defeat the dragon and stay alive? Is there any way apart from learning the hard way that your lead will likely kill you and subsequently reloading and "cheating" by rearranging your PC's and taking away weapons in advance? This seems really hokey to me. I'd like to think I could win a fight without having knowledge of the experience in advance and traveling back through time to try again.

[ Sunday, September 25, 2005 16:39: Message edited by: synergy67 ]

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A4 ItemsA4 SingletonG4 ItemsG4 ForgingG4 Infiltrator NR Items The Lonely Celt
Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 4153
Profile Homepage #5
Actually, it only happens once in Bahss. More than once would've just been evil.

And yes, it'd be great to be able to defeat that challenge on the fly, but when you've got your fighter as your first character (usually armed to the teeth with super-powerful items), the extra blessings given to it by the PC-stealing drake lord make it almost impossible.

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Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice.

I hate undead. I really, really, really, really hate undead. With a passion.
Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
Profile Homepage #6
quote:
Originally written by synergy67:

I'd like to think I could win a fight without having knowledge of the experience in advance and traveling back through time to try again.
Very few memorable fights in Blades will ever work like this.

For clarification: there are two dragon-like things in Bahs. One is the Drake Lord in the tunnels. The other is Galthrax, the dragon. The Drake Lord steals the mind of your first character. Galthrax has different nasty tricks up his sleeve.

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Shaper
Member # 6292
Profile #7
Well, I suppose you are right, Kel. I wish more often the tricky parts of Avernum in general could be won by improvisation and cleverness with the resources on hand, rather than resorting to many repeated attempts. I sure have made my share of repeated attempts at various points in all the games.

I'm not sure how such a game would be designed or if it even practically could be. It would be fun to try to create that kind of challenge though, preserving the illusion of a truly continuous story which real adventurers could make it through...you know, much the opposite of the sort of challenge TM in particular likes to concoct. ;) At the least, maybe something in the game would provide information about what you will need to do to defeat adversaries who use unexpected, lethal tricks. Of course, it is kind of fun to be slaughtered by something horrible and unexpected and then figure out how to try it again and be victorious. I suppose, with the way it works, we could look at combat more as a puzzle, along with the actual puzzles in the game.

Anyway, it's a weird gaming contrivance nearly any kind of video or computer game has used from day one...multiple lives. How else could it be done, after all?

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Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00
...b10010b...
Member # 869
Profile Homepage #8
If you want a challenging game that you can win without dying, play Angband or Nethack, in which the challenge derives from the fact that if you do die, your savefile is deleted. :P

Seriously, absent the above condition, it's not wrong for designers to expect most players to reload a few times in order to try new strategies for tough fights. (And it *is* possible to beat the altar fight in Bahss without resorting to unequipping your lead character; just keep him distracted with summoned monsters.)

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The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
Profile Homepage #9
It is possible, I assume, with a judicious use of the LOAD_SCEN_STATE and some calls checking party location, to make certain "safe save" spots and make reloading anywhere else deadly. Such a game would force continuity.

It would be interesting but difficult to try to make this approach more fun than annoying.

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Shaper
Member # 6292
Profile #10
Hmm, that sounds like a good strategy. I have a party of two I'm using for Bahs, and wound up switching my PC's around so the mage/priest got possessed and my warrior was able to sneak around past her to deal with the cause.

Those scenarios you named must be for Exile? Sounds like a nasty trick.

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Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00
...b10010b...
Member # 869
Profile Homepage #11
quote:
It is possible, I assume, with a judicious use of the LOAD_SCEN_STATE and some calls checking party location, to make certain "safe save" spots and make reloading anywhere else deadly. Such a game would force continuity.

It would be interesting but difficult to try to make this approach more fun than annoying.
I don't know if that'd be a good idea. Saving every few steps has become more or less a reflex action for me, and I can't be the only one. One would really tick off players by killing them off for accidentally saving their game in the wrong place.

Oh, and Angband and Nethack are freeware games, not scenarios. Find them at www.thangorodrim.net and www.nethack.org if you're interested.

[ Sunday, September 25, 2005 18:42: Message edited by: Atropine ]

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The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Shaper
Member # 6292
Profile #12
Disabling the Save function takes control of our game-playing experience out of our hands too completely for my taste. I sure wouldn't like it, becaue I like to keep progressing through a game and sometimes simply make dumb mistakes at times. Sometimes it's an extremely inconvenient trip to find a healer if someone needs resurrecting.. I suppose it's up to the player if one wants to play with no reloading to redo things. It would make for a much longer and probably more tedious game. As I 'm saying, it's a really tricky aspect to think of actual enjoyable and workable ways around.

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A4 ItemsA4 SingletonG4 ItemsG4 ForgingG4 Infiltrator NR Items The Lonely Celt
Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00
E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
Profile Homepage #13
I did something along these lines at the start of Isle of Boredom. You had to stay in combat mode, so you couldn't save.

Most people didn't like it.

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SupaNik: Aran, you're not big enough to threaten Ash. Dammit, even JV had to think twice.
Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00
Shaper
Member # 247
Profile Homepage #14
Perhaps that could be implemented in a short scenario. It would be interesting having to continue the scenario knowing that 2 of your four chars are dead. It would definitely add realism. Of course the dead and their equipment would have to be returned some how at the end of the scenario.

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The Knight Between Posts.
Posts: 2395 | Registered: Friday, November 2 2001 08:00
Master
Member # 5977
Profile Homepage #15
I did it! It slew the bastard withoput even great damage! Finally I'm victorious!

--------------------
Play and rate my scenarios:

Where the rivers meet
View my upcoming scenario: The Nephil Search: Escape.

Give us your drek!
Posts: 3029 | Registered: Saturday, June 18 2005 07:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 6068
Profile #16
Good for you! Now wait until you get to the tomb of infinitely respawning omnipotent undead slith chiefs and avatars! Be sure to pack a coffin for four...

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"Sometimes I get all hungry!
And then I catch some flies!
They fly into my webs!
They are really yummy guys!"
-Spider
Posts: 209 | Registered: Monday, July 4 2005 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 4153
Profile Homepage #17
Yeah, seriously. Bahss has tougher challenges than the PC-stealing drake lord.

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Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice.

I hate undead. I really, really, really, really hate undead. With a passion.
Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00
Master
Member # 5977
Profile Homepage #18
Oh god... That sounds bad... I absolutely HATE, deteste, despise of undead!

--------------------
Play and rate my scenarios:

Where the rivers meet
View my upcoming scenario: The Nephil Search: Escape.

Give us your drek!
Posts: 3029 | Registered: Saturday, June 18 2005 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 4153
Profile Homepage #19
I can relate to that. (points to sig)

The gratuitous use of undead really had me mad. I know it was perfectly suited to the plot, but I still hate undead...

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Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice.

I hate undead. I really, really, really, really hate undead. With a passion.
Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 6068
Profile #20
They're mean and nasty and silly. :P

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"Sometimes I get all hungry!
And then I catch some flies!
They fly into my webs!
They are really yummy guys!"
-Spider
Posts: 209 | Registered: Monday, July 4 2005 07:00
Agent
Member # 5814
Profile #21
They also go straight for my pants every time I encounter them. But the sad thing is, they're great for just about any scenario. Rogue necromancers, virulent plagues, vampires, they all breed undead monsters.

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quote:
Originally written by Kelandon
Well, I'm at least pretty

Posts: 1115 | Registered: Sunday, May 15 2005 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 4153
Profile Homepage #22
No, undead may make plots instantly, but they're not great plots. That's why I decided not to use undead in DoK, and why there will be no undead in the sequel.

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Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice.

I hate undead. I really, really, really, really hate undead. With a passion.
Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00
Shake Before Using
Member # 75
Profile #23
Well, undead make good minions for actual villains, since most of them can be created and controlled by evil magicians/artifacts.
Posts: 3234 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00
Master
Member # 5977
Profile Homepage #24
Don't forget that undead also form also a great master of not even undead, but also living beings. In My scenario I'm working on, there is an undead knight who died some long time ago. Such characters can also bring a story a bit to life. I just keep hating undead. There high pitched screaming when they die, there bloodlust, I just hate it, really really hate it.

--------------------
Play and rate my scenarios:

Where the rivers meet
View my upcoming scenario: The Nephil Search: Escape.

Give us your drek!
Posts: 3029 | Registered: Saturday, June 18 2005 07:00

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