Is it possible?

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AuthorTopic: Is it possible?
Infiltrator
Member # 1823
Profile Homepage #26
I still thing the plot sounds thin (TGI I mean). Maybe it would be a good idea to invent a fairly complex (if you like) history of this Void place - why it exists etc. and let any monsters be moulded from that, rather than the other way round, which is what you seem to be doing. This could also include stuff about why the slayer exists and why the monsters exist. Why there is a gatekeeper and more.

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Riot Shields
Voodoo Economics
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And the IMF

I trust I can rely on your vote
Posts: 530 | Registered: Sunday, September 1 2002 07:00
Guardian
Member # 2339
Profile #27
The Dicidulites(Di-sid-jue-lites) created a world called void, and created a creature called Void. Void was to guard void. The Dicidulites used void as a place to go for safety, but it could also double as a prison...

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-Zephyr Tempest, your personal entertainer
Posts: 1779 | Registered: Monday, December 9 2002 08:00
Law Bringer
Member # 335
Profile Homepage #28
That's a good start. Now, who exactly were or are the Dicidulites? Why did they create a world and call it Void, which usually means emptiness? Why do the vahnatai have access to this world, and why are the Void creatures aiding and abetting them? The more you develop your ideas, the better your scenario will work out.

—Alorael, who also thinks that the vahnatai are an overused villain. They can still be the bad guys, but you should stay away from Rentar-Ihrno and more mad plots to destroy the Empire.
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 2628
Profile Homepage #29
You need to give each other element of the scenario as much time and attention to detail as you're giving the weapon & armor you've mentioned.

This includes such elements as: the personalities of the townspeople you interact with (including a few who are not essential to any quests); the motivations of pivotal characters; every step of the plot and side quests; the landscape & layout; the background world (make it believable and so that it has some sort of history and sense to it, as Alorael posted); etc, etc.

From what you've stated so far in this thread, the plot sounds kind of vague and as if it's simply there to enable you to put in these monsters and this weapon. Fortunately you have quite some time to work on these ideas before BOA is released. I could be being unfair here, perhaps you have put a lot of work into the above elements, but haven't gone into the detail here :)

Well-developed storylines and background are part of what separates a good scenario I'll want to replay from a ho-hum scenario I'll probably not bother to keep on my HDD. When I'm playing a scenario, I like to be able to suspend reality and believe this place exists somewhere/somewhen and attention to this sort of detail helps make that happen.

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We meet and part now over all the world;
we, the lost company,
take hands together in the night, forget
the night in our brief happiness, silently.
-- Judith Wright

My website
Posts: 512 | Registered: Wednesday, February 12 2003 08:00
Guardian
Member # 2339
Profile #30
The Dicidulites are an extremely old race, they called Void Void because it was midnight, pretty much pitch black, because of the void creatures' instability(Which soon balanced out.). The Vahnatai have access to Void because they are disciples of the Dicidulites, it is used partly as a prison world, do you think there wouldn't be a gatekeeper?

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-Zephyr Tempest, your personal entertainer
Posts: 1779 | Registered: Monday, December 9 2002 08:00
Law Bringer
Member # 335
Profile Homepage #31
You still seem to be coming up with rough details in order to provide a simple background for a monster-slaying scenario. Instead, focus more on the plot. Decide exactly who the Dicidulites were and how they were related to the vahnatai. Somewhere in the scenario you should put information on what happened to these people who were powerful enough to create and populate a world. Why are the vahnatai using it as a prison colony anyway? What are the specific towns, how do the Void creatures interact with the Avernites, and what do you do when you get back out? And so on. If you can't write two or three pages at the very least about your scenario's background, you haven't developed it enough.

—Alorael, who doesn't mean to say that you need to write those pages. But keep it in mind. If there's anytime where you could put in a detail or more information, decide on what it is. Even if it doesn't get included in the scenario, the more you have in mind while designing it, the more coherent and interesting it will be.
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 2628
Profile Homepage #32
I'm trying to think of an analogy here to explain what I mean.

Think of movies with lots of explosions in them.

In the poorly done ones you think 'wow those explosions were cool' and that's it. It feels like the whole movie was just an excuse for fancy pyrotechnics. The characters were stereotypical and one-dimensional. The story seemed half-done and may have had lots of plot holes. Was cool the first time you saw it, but usually gets boring fast.

In the well-done movies you think 'that was a great story, it had depth, it felt like they were real people, the plot was fascinating. I'd like to see that movie again sometime.' Things blowing up may not stand out particularly because they are well-integrated into the rest of the movie. You can see why the bomb was planted or the car was blown up, you understand the reasons the characters behaved the way they did because they were so well-drawn, and yeah the guy behind the counter in the allnight supermarket reminded you of your friend who works in one.

In your scenario there are going to be plenty of interesting questions you need to know the answer to (even if you don't use them directly in the scenario). Here's some on the prison idea alone. Why is this remote locale the prison? Do they send all their prisoners here, or only for certain crimes? Do they have other methods of punishment or other prisons in less inaccessible localities? What sort of treatment do the prisoners get at the prison (is it a place of torture, is it like in Exile/Avernum where they're left to fend for themselves, or is it humanely run)? If it's being run by warders - what are the rewards and punishments available to inmates (study? parole? solitary confinement? corporal punishment?) Ask these sorts of questions about EVERYTHING you put in your scenario, and ask yourself questions about the things you deliberately choose to leave out. A lot of work? Yes. Worth the effort? Depends if you want to settle for 'those explosions were cool, shame about the rest of the movie' or if you'd rather create something better.

BTW, I have used the technique Aloreal suggests when writing stories. Sometimes my background notes are much, much longer than the story. It makes for a stronger finished product than when I try to write a story without background notes because then I have the setting & characters firmly fixed in my mind, I can refer back to my notes later so I don't contradict myself, and they're useful to reread if I get stuck somewhere.

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We meet and part now over all the world;
we, the lost company,
take hands together in the night, forget
the night in our brief happiness, silently.
-- Judith Wright

My website
Posts: 512 | Registered: Wednesday, February 12 2003 08:00
Guardian
Member # 2339
Profile #33
Like I said before, the Vanahtai are disciples to the Dicidulites(not much more relation.). There is a section of Void were it is a prison, it is wallled off, there is no parol, you're sent there for crimes like murder, arson, vandilism, and that's it. There are no rewards, those crimes(the ones I listed.) are extremely wrong according to the Dicidulite laws. They are left to tend for themselves, while being watched, they use that part for a prison because there are many evil Dicidulites, too many for the surface. Other crimes are considered petty crimes, then the petty villians go to a jail just like ours.

[ Sunday, March 30, 2003 03:07: Message edited by: Gargoyle, The Great Daemon ]

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-Zephyr Tempest, your personal entertainer
Posts: 1779 | Registered: Monday, December 9 2002 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 2628
Profile Homepage #34
I didn't mean for you to answer the questions here :) I was simply giving examples of the type of questions you need to ask yourself about every element of your scenario.

I'm not trying to pick on you, but I'd like to respectfully suggest that you try and avoid spelling errors in your scenario.

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We meet and part now over all the world;
we, the lost company,
take hands together in the night, forget
the night in our brief happiness, silently.
-- Judith Wright

My website
Posts: 512 | Registered: Wednesday, February 12 2003 08:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 1768
Profile #35
Anybody else ever play that psychotic (bleep)in' hard scenario named "Land of the Damned"? Isn't it retarded?

Pardon me, I don't mean retarded. I meant to type 'inexperianced'. But I feel that my original words and thoughts must stay, so I leave it up there.

Anyway, has anybody played it?

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"Oh, North Wind, why frighten others?
In Nature's family all are brothers.
Puff and blow and wheeze and hiss;
You can't frighten Shingebiss.
Bring your frost and ice and snow;
I'm still free to come and go.
You can never frighten me,
One who never fears is FREE!"
-Shingebiss, the mighty duck
Posts: 830 | Registered: Tuesday, August 20 2002 07:00
Shake Before Using
Member # 75
Profile #36
Um... wtf? I've never HEARD of it...

You're talking about BoE, right?

Whoops, on second thought, I actually have it in my scenario folder. I suppose I should probably beat it with my legitimate party now.

[ Sunday, March 30, 2003 15:06: Message edited by: Imban ]
Posts: 3234 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00
Guardian
Member # 2238
Profile Homepage #37
Ok this is a topic about whether or not things are possible in BOA, not who has played a BOE scenario or not.

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DEMON PLAY,
DEMON OUT!
Posts: 1582 | Registered: Wednesday, November 13 2002 08:00
Guardian
Member # 2339
Profile #38
Eep_Karzoth is right, ask me more questions about my scenerio I'll hopefully make.

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-Zephyr Tempest, your personal entertainer
Posts: 1779 | Registered: Monday, December 9 2002 08:00
Shake Before Using
Member # 75
Profile #39
Eh, off-topic discussion is fun.

Actually, I have a feeling that Plah's comment was rather accurate - this, much like Land of the Damned, is probably going to be a "super-hard" scenario that will turn out to be stupid and rather easy, too. :/
Posts: 3234 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00
Guardian
Member # 2339
Profile #40
At least it will be entertaining, Imban.

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-Zephyr Tempest, your personal entertainer
Posts: 1779 | Registered: Monday, December 9 2002 08:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 1768
Profile #41
Good luck, Imban.

One last off-topic remark, before I leave the topic.

You need a super-god-party, with super items to even survive .

OK, it isn't that hard, but it isn't beatable. But if you go to 'Old Exile' and wait for some hard-*ss 'renegades', they give you lots of treasure in outdoor fights. Just know how and be able to beat them.

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"Oh, North Wind, why frighten others?
In Nature's family all are brothers.
Puff and blow and wheeze and hiss;
You can't frighten Shingebiss.
Bring your frost and ice and snow;
I'm still free to come and go.
You can never frighten me,
One who never fears is FREE!"
-Shingebiss, the mighty duck
Posts: 830 | Registered: Tuesday, August 20 2002 07:00
The Establishment
Member # 6
Profile #42
Having the Vahnatai simply as disciples of the Dicidulites seems flimsy. Why would the Vahnatai worship them? It seems worshiping others is outside of the Vahnatai's race personna in classic Avernum. Nonetheless, I think this relationship needs to be developed.

Also, why the prison for Avernum? How do the people get there? Was everyone sent immediately or was it a gradual process of capture? Why are the Dicidulites involved?

I could go on with these questions, but the more depth you add to the interrelation of the people/factions in the story the better. Make sure everyone has a motive beyond they are just evil. Revenge is getting old hat as it pretty much drove the Avernum storyline, but if you want to use that route make it interesting.

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Your flower power is no match for my glower power!
Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
Shake Before Using
Member # 75
Profile #43
Plah - Lies. My legitimate party has butchered everything it has encountered in the scenario with ease.

Although having an excuse for fighting (as Gargoyle's scenario seems to have) is better than having no excuse for it that I can find. (as Land of the Damned has)
Posts: 3234 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00
Guardian
Member # 2339
Profile #44
The Dicidulites have marvelous treasures, magic, and weapons, and the only way the Vahnatai can have it is to become allies with the Dicidulites, the Dicidulites accepted, and taught the Vahnatai disciples their magic, and skills.

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-Zephyr Tempest, your personal entertainer
Posts: 1779 | Registered: Monday, December 9 2002 08:00
Shake Before Using
Member # 75
Profile #45
THE DICIDULITES ARE THE ILLITHIDS

TOMORROW BELONGS TO ECHOES

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...let me guess. Dicidulites are also immortal (or extremely long-lived), nearly indestructible, and capable of creating and destroying worlds at a whim?

Races of super beings are annoying.
Posts: 3234 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00
SCORPIUS HAS LEFT THE BUILDING!!!
Member # 314
Profile Homepage #46
TOMORROW BELONGS TO ECHOES = NO TOMORROW

[ Monday, March 31, 2003 11:36: Message edited by: Vladimir Scorpius ]

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CLICK HERE IF YOU LOVE JESUS

ADoS is like a magical punching bag that swings into your fist even when you're not trying to hit it. -Djur
Posts: 554 | Registered: Sunday, November 25 2001 08:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 1217
Profile Homepage #47
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Illusionist:
And there's this monster, which you should pray that it doesn't attack you;
Void Elemental
250 hp
no spells
80-190 hit damage
10 ap
never dies
85% chance to hit
can attack target 2 spaces away(no missle weapons, or bows, or spells.)

Just so you know, their is no point in having hp if something never dies. You could just give it the invulnerability trait, and you would get the same result, only it couldn't be damaged.

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ALBATROSS!!!
-John Cleese
!!!Long live Monty Python!!!

Not a Chance!

Long Live The Weather Balloons!
Posts: 304 | Registered: Monday, May 27 2002 07:00
Guardian
Member # 2339
Profile #48
The void slayer is the only thing that can kill it, I forgot to add that.

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-Zephyr Tempest, your personal entertainer
Posts: 1779 | Registered: Monday, December 9 2002 08:00
Law Bringer
Member # 335
Profile Homepage #49
You know, instead of having the big bad monster only vulnerable to a weapon that can kill it in two hits anyway. Instead, you might just want to have a script that places the Void Elemental when you enter the room. If you don't have the weapon, you get an invulnerable and impossibly hard monster to flee from. If you do have the weapon, you get a monster that is (barely) vulnerable and that has toned-down attacks.

The vahnatai have marvelous treasures, magic, and weapons of their own, and they didn't seem to see any need to gain any of the great powers or items of the Empire or slightly less impressive treasures of Avernum when they met. If you're going to develop the Dicidulites, I'd say you should probably drop the vahnatai entirely from the scenario. If you still need a second race, create yet another one.

—Alorael, who doesn't see any reason why vahnatai graphics and vahnatai monsters can't be used and renamed Dicidulites. In fact, a long-lost clan of vahnatai could have separated and founded their own world, which would give another reason for an alliance between the regular vahnatai and the Dicidulites.
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Guardian
Member # 2339
Profile #50
This is a Dicidulite; Picture a centaur(like Sagittarius), change the brown part into black, smooth fur with white, tiny stars on the fur, make the skin hispanic, and make the hair blonde, and the eyes blue, THAT is a Dicidulite, they used to be Vahnatai, so that is why they have an alliance, they changed because the instability of Void can change DNA(doexyribonuecleic acid, the building blocks of life.).

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-Zephyr Tempest, your personal entertainer
Posts: 1779 | Registered: Monday, December 9 2002 08:00

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