Bahssikava released!

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AuthorTopic: Bahssikava released!
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
Profile Homepage #50
I'm not doing anything dramatic at that point in the code, which is what makes this weird; apparently the cut scene coming to an end is triggering something that causes this, but I can't immediately see what it is.

The normal things that cause Unhandled Exceptions in BoA are bad terrains, which doesn't seem possible here, or animations that haven't been run, which aren't here are as far as I know, or numbers outside reasonable ranges, which as far as I can tell aren't here either.

If anyone figures out what's causing this, let me know. I may try to use Wizcozski's PC to reproduce this if it is a consistent problem that we can't track down, and if worst comes to worst, I may e-mail Jeff.

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Guardian
Member # 2476
Profile #51
It cannot be the cutscene, I can watch that without crashes if the altar has already been sanctified. Stuff Done flags?
What BoA version does the Roderick guy use? I'm asking because I didn't have the latest update and thought my difficulties might be due to code unsupported by my version.

[ Thursday, February 24, 2005 13:50: Message edited by: ef ]

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Polaris
Rache's A3 Site reformatted 2/3 done
Rache's A3 Site, original version
Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
Profile Homepage #52
What I was trying to say was that the final few lines of that cut scene (which are all that is left) can't be the error, so it must be something earlier that only becomes a problem when the cut scene ends.

I can't imagine that your version would matter, if you've made it this far.

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Agent
Member # 1993
Profile #53
Woot Kel! What a magnificent maze of twisted puzzles, real strong foes and history! Congratulation!
But I'm stuck already:
- I cannot free the Imps, can't leave the mine through the west exit. ("...you'd be far outnumbered if you continued. Wisely, you decide to turn back.") Is it possible that I killed the Imps inadvertently because I cleared that cave near west exit before I talked to Boarag?
- After climbing over the ladder under Kar-Grav, I cannot head west . There is a laser beam crossing the path.

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Slartucker: * facepalm facepalm facepalm *
Dikiyoba: Are you unconscious yet?
Posts: 1420 | Registered: Wednesday, October 2 2002 07:00
Agent
Member # 14
Profile #54
You can drop the laser if you know a good deal of ancient Bahssikavan and use the crystal in Western Bahssikava in the room with the flamer.

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Dragyn Bob

"Abandon all hope, ye who enter here!"-The Divine Comedy
Posts: 1481 | Registered: Thursday, September 27 2001 07:00
Agent
Member # 1993
Profile #55
You mean the control panel in the room with rows of machines in the southwest? I did use the panel. It made an explosion and I can't klick it anymore.

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Slartucker: * facepalm facepalm facepalm *
Dikiyoba: Are you unconscious yet?
Posts: 1420 | Registered: Wednesday, October 2 2002 07:00
...b10010b...
Member # 869
Profile Homepage #56
As for the imps, it sounds like you inadvertently killed them -- you're not meant to be able to leave the mine to the west, that cave just a little behind where you're blocked is where you free the imps. Don't worry, the imps aren't all that useful to have on your side anyway, and they lengthen each round annoyingly by casting a bunch of spells.

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The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
Profile Homepage #57
Yeah, this part of the scenario is going to get changed. As it stands, you probably can't beat N-K, since you can't remove the beam in UKG and therefore can't reduce his power at all.

And fighting against N-K without reducing his power at all is suicide.

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Agent
Member # 14
Profile #58
I had this problem too, but you can get around it if you're willing to muck around in the character editor with the stuff done flags. Flag 14,10 is whether or not you've done anything to the controls or not, and 0 is the start state. Flag 250,2 is your knowledge of Bahssikavan, and you need it at at least 2.

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Dragyn Bob

"Abandon all hope, ye who enter here!"-The Divine Comedy
Posts: 1481 | Registered: Thursday, September 27 2001 07:00
Warrior
Member # 3610
Profile #59
Could the unhandled exception be an excessive skill score?
Posts: 129 | Registered: Tuesday, October 28 2003 08:00
Agent
Member # 1993
Profile #60
:( I didn't manage it with the editor. The wicked laser stays forever. Seems that I have to start with a new party. Well, I'll be faster since I read the hints ^_^

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Slartucker: * facepalm facepalm facepalm *
Dikiyoba: Are you unconscious yet?
Posts: 1420 | Registered: Wednesday, October 2 2002 07:00
Guardian
Member # 2476
Profile #61
Now that I've finished the game I think I'll replay and move through the sections more leisurely.

While playing I almost resigned on being able to give a comment, because I felt so torn between my admiration of what you've done, my attraction to it, and a vague, empty feeling of things missing. A Lyceum member mentioned that events and scenes should have been fleshed out more. I agree, though it took me a while to cut through my confusion.

Kel, it's all there, it's all in your scenario, but you don't give it a voice, it's not being expressed.

Instead of repeatedly pointing out that Sliths are more than one thought them to be, how about reflecting that the mythical proportions of the Sliths' longing for their homeland become so understandable, if this remarkable culture is what they were expelled from. And as the party sees only the remnants and ruins of what once was, how about wondering what the city may have been like, when it was still full functioning.

Also, Bahssikava was built by slith exiles. Interesting. So we have to assume that those who went on into what later became Avernum were warriors, supported by some mages and priests. The technicians, the construction workers, the 'ordinary' people all stayed behind. And though the slith priests were respected and feared in Avernum, those who stayed to build the city were far superior to their Avernum colleagues.

Strange that all memory of this should have been lost in a scant 200 years. Understandable only, when such memory was consciously suppressed and not passsed on by those who failed to live up to it. Which makes one wonder about Thss's motives to attack the city. What did he strive to achieve? Destruction or a last desperate attempt to dominate what he felt separated from?

Then the Haakai section. The way you designed it, the party comes upon one of the last - if not the last - fully intact demon strongholds within its world. Grah-Hoth may have been defeated, his general was not. Now this is information of utmost importance, not only to Sliths, to Avernum and the Empire as well. It is not just another dungeon to plunge in. What kind of power are they slowly building up with their crystals and their not inconsiderable army? Counteraction is long overdue. The party is a sure candidate for high honours just for finding out about this.

Then comes the anticlimax of the path to the north. Bahssikava lies in ruins, but north is the homeland. Yes, you are prepared to have to fight a dragon. Nevertheless, another waste with hordes of monsters would make me wonder about what I will find beyond. Why is this region so deserted? Where are the slith armies? Why does Ithik's town get no support? Obviously things are not what they used to be in slith countries. Should it not now be dawning on my party that the Sliths' return from exile may set them on a path much longer than and different from the one they initially meant to tread?

Entering the town at long last, being able to assimilate its knowledge and learning and to reunite with folks of your own is an achievement, is a joy, even though it is not an end, but a preparation for the next stage of your journey.

This is the story I find in your scenario, though you tell a fraction of it. It's there and not there. If it was there, you'd probably get full marks from everyone.

I enjoy what you did. It's surely a promise of much more and of truly excellent things to come.

[ Sunday, February 27, 2005 22:01: Message edited by: ef ]

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Polaris
Rache's A3 Site reformatted 2/3 done
Rache's A3 Site, original version
Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
Profile Homepage #62
If there are unanswered questions in Bahssikava, that's because the story isn't over yet. Bahs does stand on its own, but it is not meant to be completely satisfying by itself. There were a number of questions that I didn't answer deliberately. Among them:

Who is the Goddess? Is she even real?

What happened to the homeland sliths that caused the Guardpost to be cut off and caused Vasskolis to be destroyed?

Who was Thsss, really? What did he really do to get exiled? What did he really do once he was exiled? You hear Kass's version, but how accurate is that?

One of the assumptions that I made in Bahssikava is that the Darklings lost the ability to write almost immediately upon exile. Thus, the difference between groups of sliths is vast: the Bahssikavans were the sliths who broke from the Darklings from the moment they passed through the steel doors -- these sliths would remember the homeland vividly, since they lived there. The histories that they wrote would be relatively accurate, since their writings would trace back to the time right before

The sliths of Gnass, on the other hand, broke from the Darklings much later. By my chronology, they broke from the Darklings more than one-hundred fifty years after the Bahssikavans did. That means they spent a hundred and fifty years without written records. They forgot much about Bahssikava and the homeland during this time.

Now, every slith in Avernum (save Legare himself) is descended from Darklings or from those of Gnass, who know little more about history than Darklings. That's why so much of the information in Avernum about Bahssikava and the homeland is missing important details.

I could go on about this at great length, but I'll spare you (unless you really want more details). :P Suffice it to say that I very deliberately didn't give precise answers because there's more to come and didn't tell the whole story because, well, the scen took a year to make as is.

The sequel (if it ever gets made) will be much more satisfying in terms of plot, I promise.

EDIT: At some point, a couple more articles and a few revisions and probably some sort of general statement are coming, so that as I digest what I learned from the experience of making Bahssikava, I can pass on some of the lessons to others.

[ Sunday, February 27, 2005 22:41: Message edited by: Kelandon ]

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Guardian
Member # 2476
Profile #63
I'm only so demanding because of your scenario's potential. Otherwise I'd be much friendlier. I also believe that all discussions about minor changes in dungeons or cutscenes only make sense, when the plot is fully developed. The reason I focus so much on plot is that I feel plot would glue all parts together and give the dungeons more plausibility and depth.

So the story I pick up while playing is not the story you are going to tell? Then I need hints, the kind of hints that makes me put questions that I cannot answer but feel I want to answer.

quote:
One of the assumptions that I made in Bahssikava is that the Darklings lost the ability to write almost immediately upon exile.
I see now that all your mentioning of 'dumb Sliths' is to point one in that direction. But I don't think that anyone got that. And if the scenario is to stand for itself, this needs more clarity. It cannot wait for a sequel that you may never write.

quote:
That means they spent a hundred and fifty years without written records. They forgot much about Bahssikava and the homeland during this time.
150 years is not that long. What I know through my great-aunt from her and her family dates back well into the 1850s, and I'm not in my dotage yet.

quote:
I could go on about this at great length, but I'll spare you (unless you really want more details)
I'd love more details.

quote:
The sequel (if it ever gets made) will be much more satisfying in terms of plot, I promise.
Sorry, that won't do. Each sequel has to be satisfying in terms of plot.

I do believe that the story took time to develop. Such stories don't grow overnight.

[ Sunday, February 27, 2005 23:26: Message edited by: ef ]

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Polaris
Rache's A3 Site reformatted 2/3 done
Rache's A3 Site, original version
Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
Profile Homepage #64
Given that the narrative has already been described as bloated, what answeres would you like and where would you like them?

EDIT: This reminds me a bit of a few conversations that I had about the combat. People kept telling me, "Make it interesting! Make it interesting!" I'd ask, "What wasn't interesting, and how could I make it interesting?" They'd reply, "Make it interesting! Make it interesting!" :P

EDIT 2: Not that it's gotten that bad yet, just that I could see it getting that bad.

EDIT 3: Gah. Let me try this another way. You suggest the following things:
how about reflecting that the mythical proportions of the Sliths' longing for their homeland become so understandable, if this remarkable culture is what they were expelled fromhow about wondering what the city may have been like, when it was still full functioningWhat did he strive to achieve? Destruction or a last desperate attempt to dominate what he felt separated from?something more with the significance of N-KWhy is this region so deserted? Where are the slith armies? Why does Ithik's town get no supportShould it not now be dawning on my party that the Sliths' return from exile may set them on a path much longer than and different from the one they initially meant to tread?A few of these are genuinely beyond the scope of this scenario. On the third point, no one is left either in any part of the scenario that remembers Thsss or knows what he was like specifically. Those questions cannot be answered in this scenario.
Similarly, with regard to the fifth, the ending hints at why these areas of the homeland are abandoned, and the very geography itself is a clue: the slith empire that once made up the homeland has fallen apart. The details of that must wait, though.

And on the final point: this is already there, albeit in short form. As soon as they walk through the doors into the Guardpost, the narrative introduces something like this. I admit I don't do much with it, but what more exactly do you want?

And are there more things that you would like the scenario to address?

[ Monday, February 28, 2005 06:37: Message edited by: Kelandon ]

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
...b10010b...
Member # 869
Profile Homepage #65
quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

EDIT: This reminds me a bit of a few conversations that I had about the combat. People kept telling me, "Make it interesting! Make it interesting!" I'd ask, "What wasn't interesting, and how could I make it interesting?" They'd reply, "Make it interesting! Make it interesting!" :P
Hey, I thought we did a pretty good job of telling you which parts lagged. Telling you how to make things more interesting is harder, because for it to be interesting there should be something unexpected about it, and for obvious reasons it's hard to imagine what something unexpected would be. Anyway, we motivated you to make the Tunnels sequence, so obviously our haranguing achieved something worthwhile. :P

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The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Warrior
Member # 3610
Profile #66
Incidentally, ef, I think the fact that you are asking these questions yourself means that Kel shouldn't have to. While the point about the Haakai area is certainly valid (though given what happened in Avernum 2 with Kordadis, it is hard to say that he is the only remaining demon-lord). I'm actually planning a scenario based on that idea... Anywho, yeah.
Posts: 129 | Registered: Tuesday, October 28 2003 08:00
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
Profile Homepage #67
Thuryl, let me say that when I talk about fruitless conversations with beta testers, I'm not talking about you.

I did have a little bit of a debate with myself about how obvious to be and how blunt a point to make. I never really came to a final answer; thus the degree of subtlety throughout the scenario varies wildly. The adapted Our Father prayer in the Deeps (gone for the next version) and the bit about fighting one's own closest friends in Kass's speech right after the altar fight in Tunnels were examples of me being less subtle. The total lack of interaction with Legare during the scenario is an example of me being more subtle.

I haven't ever come to a conclusion about how to achieve the right balance, really.

And I suppose I should say that I am not sure to what extent it is possible (or desirable) to re-write Bahs in order to tie the plot and the action closer together and flesh out more details. I think it would be better to leave Bahs mostly alone and make a new scenario with the lessons that I learned from the old one.

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
...b10010b...
Member # 869
Profile Homepage #68
The way I see it, a finished work is a finished work. No need to rewrite it now.

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The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Guardian
Member # 2476
Profile #69
Actually, I didn't mean to suggest that Kel rewrites the scenario, as that doesn't seem to me a good idea at all. Let this be what it is. He's done a great job with it.

No, I thought that if I brought this up and expressed myself, it would subtly change what Kel does with the next sequel, without him even thinking much about it.

And I would love to see a next sequel.

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Polaris
Rache's A3 Site reformatted 2/3 done
Rache's A3 Site, original version
Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
Profile Homepage #70
quote:
Originally written by ef:
I thought that if I brought this up and expressed myself, it would subtly change what Kel does with the next sequel, without him even thinking much about it.
No.

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Guardian
Member # 2476
Profile #71
Don't get me wrong. Disagreeing with me would also change what you do, insofar as it clarifies and strengthens your own position.

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Polaris
Rache's A3 Site reformatted 2/3 done
Rache's A3 Site, original version
Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
Profile Homepage #72
Bahssikava updated to v1.0.2. Various bugs fixed. Ability to skip cut scenes entirely added. Ability to print party location added.

Also, you can destroy that thing in southwest Western Bahssikava in the room with the Flamer only knowing one level of Bahssikavan language, instead of two.

[ Sunday, March 06, 2005 18:46: Message edited by: Kelandon ]

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Apprentice
Member # 4031
Profile Homepage #73
In the old Slith town way under Bahssikava that has the Slith ghosts, the door to the temple from
the library won't open. It has lock difficulty 200, and I looked everywhere and there is no key. Is this a bug or did I miss something?

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html://srmboe0.tripod.com - My Website, filled with my BOE scenarios, Avernum 3 hints, and my Exile Stories. Check it out!
Posts: 26 | Registered: Wednesday, February 25 2004 08:00
...b10010b...
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Go south and talk to Khassper -- he'll point you in the right direction.

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The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00

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