Educational Segregation

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Author	Topic: Educational Segregation
Dikiyoba Councilor Member # 6600	written Monday, August 27 2007 12:10 Profile Homepage #25 quote: quote: quote: Zeviz: The solution that top education systems in the world have come up with is to have curriculum designed by professionals. You can't staff each classroom with a brilliant educator capable of making good lesson plans and fair tests that don't have to be graded on a curve, but you can find enough of them for a curriculum development commission. This is the approach taken by Russia and, I think, other countries with top school systems. Salmon: This is the system that Oregon is leaning toward, with centrally developed curricula and testing schema. It sucks. It ignores that different students have different needs, and punishes students, teachers, and districts when they veer from the pre-set goals of the "head in the clouds" curricula developers. Zeviz: In reality, there are very few teachers who can do better than the pre-designed curriculum. (And if that is the case, they should be helping design a better one.) However, if these teachers can prove that their curriculum works better, they should be allowed to use it. I think the key point in Salmon's argument is "testing". A centrally designed curriculum may work better than an individualized one if the goal is to get as many students to learn as much as possible; I don't know. However, it does not work if the goal is to get students to pass tests. If a unit don't show up on the test, it's out of the curriculum, regardless of how important they may be in real life, or how fun it is for students, or how good a teacher is at teaching it. That's not going to result in a good education. Dikiyoba. -------------------- Episode 4: Spiderweb Reloaded Posts: 4346 \| Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00
Jumpin Salmon ? Man, ? Amazing Member # 5755	written Monday, August 27 2007 13:42 Profile #26 It would be favorable to have graduated graduate levels for secondary school. After all, there is honor in manual trades, as well as a steady demand for those services. Not ever person is capable of AP level physics, nor should they be required to learn it. It isn't something that crops up regularly in real life, although if a person later on finds out that they are interested in it there are no obstacles to learning later on. Back to money. A starting teacher salary in K-12 can be as little as 23k per year, although the average is closer to 30k. A teacher works about 44 weeks out of the year, for a low end of $13 per hour. And you expect what from this person? That they own a home, car, bunches of clothes, fulfill college loan repayment requirements, take refresher courses to stay qualified, spend evenings grading papers, and weekends preparing coursework? Zeviz is right that one person can't go it alone, and Drakey's breakdown of dept chair and teachers sharing workload is par for my experience. Tests can be re-given, with questions drawn from a larger pool. There are myriad options, but you are simply not going to find people interested in entering the teaching arena unless the rewards are somewhere close to the costs. And the cost of lost opportunity must be figured into the equation. A telemarketing position (CSR) for Cingular is currently available in Portland OR. They offer 10.60 - 15.50 starting salary. No training. Work and go home. Simple, more lucrative. The maths are simple, even if you went to American schools. -------------------- Synergy - "I don't get it." Dikiyoba - "Dang. I'm one firecracker short from getting a gourd potion today." Posts: 4114 \| Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Drakefyre Triad Mage Member # 7	written Monday, August 27 2007 14:31 Profile Homepage #27 About 2/3 of NJ school districts have starting teacher salaries of $40K+. A lot of school districts across the country (Helena, Montana has been mentioned a lot) are raising initial salaries, and unions are fighting for them too. Everyone recognizes the issue of attracting quality teachers is important - but really, is teaching ever going to get people who right now are in the doctor/lawyer/engineer/finance pool? A lot of them may become teachers later on, but right out of college it's a different breed. I think you've got to attract the students that right now are going into psychology, social work, etc. - appeal to them and make teaching "sexy" again. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 \| Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00
Jumpin Salmon ? Man, ? Amazing Member # 5755	written Monday, August 27 2007 16:19 Profile #28 quote: Originally written by Drakefyre: make teaching "sexy" again. Teacher, Teacher? -------------------- Synergy - "I don't get it." Dikiyoba - "Dang. I'm one firecracker short from getting a gourd potion today." Posts: 4114 \| Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Thuryl ...b10010b... Member # 869	written Monday, August 27 2007 16:23 Profile Homepage #29 quote: Originally written by Drakefyre: Everyone recognizes the issue of attracting quality teachers is important - but really, is teaching ever going to get people who right now are in the doctor/lawyer/engineer/finance pool? It might if you paid them as much as doctors. There are three million teachers in America: paying them all, say, $200k a year would cost $600 billion. That's a huge amount, sure, but it's less than 5% of US GDP -- does anyone really believe that attracting that calibre of people to education wouldn't increase the nation's productivity by more than 5%? -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 \| Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Jumpin Salmon ? Man, ? Amazing Member # 5755	written Monday, August 27 2007 16:35 Profile #30 In Oregon you now need a Masters Degree to get a teaching certificate. That is the same level of training as is "required" to be a business executive. Compensation is not even close. Most teachers would be happy with $100k/year after 15-20 years of service. But the bottom line, like implied by Thuryl, is that you get what you pay for. Currently the USA pays for better educated babysitters. And they get a bunch of babies coming out of high school. Present company excepted, of course. -------------------- Synergy - "I don't get it." Dikiyoba - "Dang. I'm one firecracker short from getting a gourd potion today." Posts: 4114 \| Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Enraged Slith Agent Member # 27	written Monday, August 27 2007 17:48 Profile #31 American school systems are also cutting down on physical education, as well as abandoning free time after lunch. It doesn't make much sense to me, physical training is just as important as mental training. I was also reading in Time Magazine (bleh, but I was in a waiting room) about how American schooling is failing the male population. Apparently, (the best way I can describe it) boys learn by exploring and by experiencing, while girls tend to do better in the school like environment. Especially in the early years, the classes don't appeal to the young guys, who then become restless and earn a "bad" reputation among teachers. Eventually, it becomes implanted in their mind that either they are a misfit or dumb or both. Someone here probably knows a lot more about this, I just thought it was an interesting point to bring up. -------------------- Enraged Slith's Blades of Avernum Website "Rain drops keep fallin' on my head, but that doesn't mean my eyes will soon be turnin' red. Crying's not for me, no, cuz' I'm never gonna stop the rain by complaining." Posts: 1233 \| Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00
Drew By Committee Member # 4233	written Monday, August 27 2007 18:44 Profile #32 quote: Originally written by Thuryl: It might if you paid them as much as doctors. There are three million teachers in America: paying them all, say, $200k a year would cost $600 billion. That's a huge amount, sure, but it's less than 5% of US GDP -- does anyone really believe that attracting that calibre of people to education wouldn't increase the nation's productivity by more than 5%? This (at least with regard to the US system) brings up another problem: federalism. Public education in the US is a state-run affair. While the US Congress can pass laws creating financial incentives for schools to adhere to specific standards, it cannot fully regulate them or take them over. Thus, the lion's share of funding for most public schools must come from the states, which most frequently derive most of their school funding from property taxes. Now, imagine trying to get the voting taxpayer to cough up 5% of GDP through their property taxes... In addition, there is incredible disparity between the incomes of the several states. [ Monday, August 27, 2007 18:46: Message edited by: Drew ] Posts: 2242 \| Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Drakefyre Triad Mage Member # 7	written Monday, August 27 2007 19:21 Profile Homepage #33 Fortunately not all states are reducing physical education - and once some results trickle in from Arkansas, more states might actually get fitter, more active children. You've gotta love Mike Huckabee! -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 \| Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00
Drew By Committee Member # 4233	written Monday, August 27 2007 20:38 Profile #34 Hmm... free time after lunch = more time to be bullied. I think that more structured time at school, at least after elementary school, = better. As for more PE, I'm all for it. It's definitely a shame that I've come to appreciate the health benefits of recreational running now. Posts: 2242 \| Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Jumpin Salmon ? Man, ? Amazing Member # 5755	written Monday, August 27 2007 21:46 Profile #35 Drew, I've often wondered why the Federal government has a department of education, while it runs no schools outside the purview of the military. As far as the physical education, I've noticed that most is outsourced, with parents expected to pay extra to have their child enrolled in [insert sport] training during after (or in the case of hockey, before) school. By the by, is it time to bring up home schooling again? I think it was last disgust a year or so ago. Edit - Nope, no typos here. -------------------- Synergy - "I don't get it." Dikiyoba - "Dang. I'm one firecracker short from getting a gourd potion today." Posts: 4114 \| Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Drew By Committee Member # 4233	written Tuesday, August 28 2007 03:49 Profile #36 Ha ha ha. The tricky thing about phys ed is that, like academia, kids come in at all levels and attitudes, so catering to them can be tricky. Also, though they frequently seem extravagant, school facilities for full-scale PE programs, especially in large schools, are pretty limited. My freshman class was 500 or so. Running that many kids through a PE program freshman year with one gym and one set of locker rooms with one instructor was pretty crazy. I understand this is less of a problem in smaller schools in smaller towns, where something close to the entirety of the student body may be called on just to fill out the athletic teams, and kids frequently will play three sports. My mistake growing up was thinking I was just not good enough to be able to be a part of a team. Had I known that, to a certain extent, high school programs pretty much have at least to let kids come to practice, I probably would have been involved in football or cross country. No expectations were put on me by my parents though, so I let the opportunity slip by, unfortunately. :( The Department of Education does actually carry out a number of functions that are pretty important. Just off the top of my head, they (mis)administer the federal loan and grant programs. Furthermore, the funding they can provide to some state programs is frequently vital. Not every state can pull in funds for education like New York, California, or even Oregon. A lot of what it does though is probably waste. Posts: 2242 \| Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Drakefyre Triad Mage Member # 7	written Tuesday, August 28 2007 05:49 Profile Homepage #37 They also set the standards that signify what a "high school diploma" means, etc. As for PE, you had one gym teacher for 500 kids in your freshman class? Our phys ed department was at least 10 people strong - probably more. Everyone took gym every day for four years (with one quarter of Health each year). Of course, when you can choose your gym classes, the type of people that gravitate towards Volleyball and Table Tennis are going to be different. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 \| Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00
Student of Trinity Electric Sheep One Member # 3431	written Tuesday, August 28 2007 06:00 Profile #38 Yeah, I remember the kind of people who signed up for Volleyball and Table Tennis. Tiniest guys I ever saw. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 \| Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Jumpin Salmon ? Man, ? Amazing Member # 5755	written Tuesday, August 28 2007 09:01 Profile #39 Don't forget about those tall, lanky freaks that chose Ultimate Frisbee. Those guys were weird! Drew - same here regarding lost opportunities. Being a 4-eyes limited me, through peer pressure, to sports I wouldn't totally suck at. Apparently running fit that category, despite my suckiness. Baseball and hockey would have been better, but everyone knows that you can't play those games without perfect vision. -------------------- Synergy - "I don't get it." Dikiyoba - "Dang. I'm one firecracker short from getting a gourd potion today." Posts: 4114 \| Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Azuma Velius Lifecrafter Member # 7252	written Wednesday, August 29 2007 01:57 Profile #40 Actually..four eyes in my school still got the oppurtunity that 4 eyes usually lose..of course..they belong to the right peers but still.. I'm currently experiencing Educational Segregation..and I find it..amusing..my backwater school trying its best to improve their so called "gifted" students..with low-class school equipment..did I mention P.E. is done on the rooftop? And it's rain season here! -------------------- This is reality. No one can help you. Sit back and enjoy the show. Posts: 732 \| Registered: Saturday, June 24 2006 07:00
Student of Trinity Electric Sheep One Member # 3431	written Wednesday, August 29 2007 03:43 Profile #41 Tiny people playing volleyball on ping-pong tables, spiking those little plastic balls over those little nets .... Come on, now, that was hilarious. [ Wednesday, August 29, 2007 03:50: Message edited by: Student of Trinity ] -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 \| Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Drew By Committee Member # 4233	written Wednesday, August 29 2007 04:18 Profile #42 I didn't get a choice of sports. My gym "class" itself was over 100 kids, and after running every day for ten minutes and some light exercises, we would have to play whatever particular game was organized by the gym teacher - usually volleyball, basketball, or "California kickball." Posts: 2242 \| Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Kelandon Off With Their Heads Member # 4045	written Wednesday, August 29 2007 06:28 Profile Homepage #43 quote: Originally written by Student of Trinity: Tiny people playing volleyball on ping-pong tables, spiking those little plastic balls over those little nets .... Come on, now, that was hilarious. It was only hilarious until they climbed off the table and started tying down the nearby sleeping giants with their little ropes and hooks. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 \| Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Student of Trinity Electric Sheep One Member # 3431	written Wednesday, August 29 2007 09:27 Profile #44 So we need PE segregation. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 \| Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Drakefyre Triad Mage Member # 7	written Wednesday, August 29 2007 10:04 Profile Homepage #45 Are we dividing them up by height and number of eyes now? -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 \| Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00
Jumpin Salmon ? Man, ? Amazing Member # 5755	written Wednesday, August 29 2007 12:25 Profile #46 Enter height, weight, hair color, eye color, and parental income and education into the computer and it will tell each student the ideal sport based on their potential earnings. This ranges from yachting to bowling, and strangely eye count is not even considered at this point. -------------------- Synergy - "I don't get it." Dikiyoba - "Dang. I'm one firecracker short from getting a gourd potion today." Posts: 4114 \| Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Enraged Slith Agent Member # 27	written Wednesday, August 29 2007 13:26 Profile #47 quote: Don't forget about those tall, lanky freaks that chose Ultimate Frisbee. Those guys were weird! You know me too well. I'm not lanky though. Despite the fact that you aren't allowed to hit anyone, frisbee is a fun sport that can be picked up in seconds. I don't see what's so weird about that. -------------------- Enraged Slith's Blades of Avernum Website "Rain drops keep fallin' on my head, but that doesn't mean my eyes will soon be turnin' red. Crying's not for me, no, cuz' I'm never gonna stop the rain by complaining." Posts: 1233 \| Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00