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because the half too. It easy to forget most kids ... go see a move, go to a club and ect

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Originally written by Zeviz:

The problems with American school system are due to fundamental flaws in the system's structure, and can't be solved by just throwing more money at schools, even if in some cases more money is needed.

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One of the biggest problems is that American schools are run the same way as medieval universities, with each teacher the complete master of their classroom, protected by a tenure and only loosely guided by state education requirements. A system like that relies on each teacher being a brilliant educator, capable of developing a curriculum, making up good tests (a skill that takes years to master), keeping the students' attention, oh, and perhaps even teaching the material. Teachers like this do exist, but there will never be enough of them to fill every class in every school, no matter how much you pay.

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The solution that top education systems in the world have come up with is to have curriculum designed by professionals. You can't staff each classroom with a brilliant educator capable of making good lesson plans and fair tests that don't have to be graded on a curve, but you can find enough of them for a curriculum development commission. This is the approach taken by Russia and, I think, other countries with top school systems.

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As for the results of the two approaches: coming from an 8th grade in a good Russian school, my math level had matched at least 11th grade in a very good American school, and science level was also a couple grades ahead of my counterparts in an equally good American school. (It's harder to compare science level directly, because in Russia Chemistry, Physics, etc. are taught simultaneously, instead of teaching Physics in 9th grade, chemistry in 10th, etc.)

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PS As for original question of separating students by ability, it's hard to strike the right balance between every single student being forced to adhere to the same curriculum (Russian approach) and nobody being challenged to show any effort (American approach). The right answer is somewhere in between, but I don't know where.

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Originally written by Jumpin' Sarcasmon:

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One of the biggest problems is that American schools are run the same way as medieval universities, with each teacher the complete master of their classroom, protected by a tenure and only loosely guided by state education requirements. A system like that relies on each teacher being a brilliant educator, capable of developing a curriculum, making up good tests (a skill that takes years to master), keeping the students' attention, oh, and perhaps even teaching the material. Teachers like this do exist, but there will never be enough of them to fill every class in every school, no matter how much you pay.

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I have no idea what school system you are describing. It wasn't that way when I went to school, and isn't remotely like that in the school district where I currently reside.

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The solution that top education systems in the world have come up with is to have curriculum designed by professionals. You can't staff each classroom with a brilliant educator capable of making good lesson plans and fair tests that don't have to be graded on a curve, but you can find enough of them for a curriculum development commission. This is the approach taken by Russia and, I think, other countries with top school systems.

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This is the system that Oregon is leaning toward, with centrally developed curricula and testing schema. It sucks. It ignores that different students have different needs, and punishes students, teachers, and districts when they veer from the pre-set goals of the "head in the clouds" curricula developers.

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As for the results of the two approaches: coming from an 8th grade in a good Russian school, my math level had matched at least 11th grade in a very good American school, and science level was also a couple grades ahead of my counterparts in an equally good American school. (It's harder to compare science level directly, because in Russia Chemistry, Physics, etc. are taught simultaneously, instead of teaching Physics in 9th grade, chemistry in 10th, etc.)

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In 11th grade I was taking Pre-Calc, Trig, AP Physics and AP Biology, AP English, and History of the Ancient World. I find it incredible that Russian children are taught those subjects 3 years prior. My high school was public, and the only one I was eligible to attend.

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PS As for original question of separating students by ability, it's hard to strike the right balance between every single student being forced to adhere to the same curriculum (Russian approach) and nobody being challenged to show any effort (American approach). The right answer is somewhere in between, but I don't know where.

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I don't see that as the American approach. My teachers challenged me, and other students, every day. 20+ years later I see teachers still challenging students to bring forth their best. I find it disheartening that your view is so dismal, when I see hope, despite the many challenges faced by a publicly funded education system.

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Originally written by Zeviz:

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Originally written by Jumpin' Sarcasmon:

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One of the biggest problems is that American schools are run the same way as medieval universities, with each teacher the complete master of their classroom, protected by a tenure and only loosely guided by state education requirements. A system like that relies on each teacher being a brilliant educator, capable of developing a curriculum, making up good tests (a skill that takes years to master), keeping the students' attention, oh, and perhaps even teaching the material. Teachers like this do exist, but there will never be enough of them to fill every class in every school, no matter how much you pay.

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I have no idea what school system you are describing. It wasn't that way when I went to school, and isn't remotely like that in the school district where I currently reside.

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I was under the impression that all American teachers are expected to make their own tests and lesson plans. I also heard that the concept of "tenure", developed to allow university professors to criticize the government, is applied in America to protect math and science teach who don't care about their students or the subjects they teach. Please correct me if this isn't the case.

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The solution that top education systems in the world have come up with is to have curriculum designed by professionals. You can't staff each classroom with a brilliant educator capable of making good lesson plans and fair tests that don't have to be graded on a curve, but you can find enough of them for a curriculum development commission. This is the approach taken by Russia and, I think, other countries with top school systems.

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This is the system that Oregon is leaning toward, with centrally developed curricula and testing schema. It sucks. It ignores that different students have different needs, and punishes students, teachers, and districts when they veer from the pre-set goals of the "head in the clouds" curricula developers.

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In reality, there are very few teachers who can do better than the pre-designed curriculum. (And if that is the case, they should be helping design a better one.) However, if these teachers can prove that their curriculum works better, they should be allowed to use it.

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PS As for original question of separating students by ability, it's hard to strike the right balance between every single student being forced to adhere to the same curriculum (Russian approach) and nobody being challenged to show any effort (American approach). The right answer is somewhere in between, but I don't know where.

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I don't see that as the American approach. My teachers challenged me, and other students, every day. 20+ years later I see teachers still challenging students to bring forth their best. I find it disheartening that your view is so dismal, when I see hope, despite the many challenges faced by a publicly funded education system.

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Originally written by Student of Trinity:

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I'm curious how the Russian system works now, and how the Soviet system used to work.

The American system is a one-size-fits-all high school diploma. So the minimum requirements to obtain it are comparatively low. The maximum amount of education that one can obtain in an American high school is considerably higher.

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