Why You Suck: Ancient Greek Edition
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Lifecrafter
Member # 6388
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written Saturday, February 24 2007 01:18
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Aristotle, who was married three times, professed for his entire life that women had fewer teeth than men. The concept of failing to ruthlessly sodomize one's customary boy-ward at every opportunity was so revolutionary to the ancient Greeks that when it was formulated by Plato that they named it after him. Slavery was their deal. So was colonialism. Discuss. [ Saturday, February 24, 2007 01:19: Message edited by: Protocols of the Elders of Zion ] Posts: 794 | Registered: Tuesday, October 11 2005 07:00 |
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Master
Member # 5977
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written Saturday, February 24 2007 01:37
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Ah, I see. Um... when this topic will get locked, will there be a European edition too? -------------------- Play and rate my scenarios: Where the rivers meet View my upcoming scenario: The Nephil Search: Escape. Give us your drek! Posts: 3029 | Registered: Saturday, June 18 2005 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Saturday, February 24 2007 06:37
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To be fair, their ideas of "slavery" and "colonialism" were significantly different from the modern (and more repugnant) concepts, and they generally wanted man-boy love to be at least somewhat mutual. But the ancient Greek concepts of love and sexuality were, well, odd, to say the least. The Romans had a more familiar sense of things (though still different from our ideas in some ways). One of the things that I like about studying the Greeks and Romans is that they are so incredibly similar to us in many ways but so incredibly different in other ways that they can be continually surprising. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Saturday, February 24 2007 08:34
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I can confirm the second point. The 'Symposium' was pretty much a bunch of old men trying to justify why having a young male lover was the closest one could ever get to true love. Plato still believed the same thing, but he tried to change the subject by saying love was a divine concept. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 59
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written Saturday, February 24 2007 08:59
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In CE 2007, in the cultures deemed to be the pinnacle of civilization, women are still supposed to dress and act modestly, so that people don't think they are begging to be groped or raped. Regardless of clothing, men are mindless sex machines who enjoy being groped by any woman, of course. In the Land of the Free, Prison Rape is very common and merely a laughing matter. On the other hand, consenting adults need to ask the Supreme Court for permission to copulate. Being a "pimp" is something to be proud of. Posts: 950 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Saturday, February 24 2007 12:26
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Well, I take it to be a basic fact of history, that trying to constrain the male sex drives within some limits of justice is a big part of what civilization is all about. It's a core problem, not something to expect as a spin-off. And civilization has had maybe a couple of millennia to try to catch up to several hundred million years of evolution. It shouldn't really be a surprise that our progress since ancient Greece has in many respects been only modest. Not at all to say that we shouldn't aim higher. Only that we ought to recognize how difficult the problem is. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Saturday, February 24 2007 12:43
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I'm curious if it has been unearthed at all, where the Greek predilection toward man-boy love took root. It is fascinating to me how cultures take on entire attitudes, yet it seems likely they often originated with but one influential person or group early on. Who started it? Perhaps someone might have had such a negative experience with women, he developed a serious disdain for them, and a new ideal of love was fashioned out of a personal bias and it took cultural root. Peer pressure and socialization are powerful factors. Eventually, this culture gave us (maybe only by inference as I couldn't find the actual quote in a search) something of the wry joke that,"Hemlock is preferable to wedlock." I suspect misogyny taking place there, a reactive sexuality, not merely a natural preference for homosexuality. It's also suggestive that you can cultivate homosexuality in some fashion through societal values and preferences, rather than supporting a biological determinant. Or else there was something in the water that made them all gay, like the lead water pipes that made Roman elite insane. -S- -------------------- A4 Item Locations A4 Singleton G4 Items List G4 Forging List The Insidious Infiltrator Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 6388
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written Saturday, February 24 2007 15:06
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quote:Thoroughly and unreservedly concur, but am still not used to the year being 2007. Posts: 794 | Registered: Tuesday, October 11 2005 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Saturday, February 24 2007 16:02
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On a related note today's Wall Street Journal has a front page story on trying to dig up Sodom. The reason God destroyed it is believed to be homosexuality according to Christians and Moslems. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 7000
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written Saturday, February 24 2007 16:22
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quote:Not to mention the Jews, who came up with the idea. :P Also, my interpretation of that passage in the Bible is that the sin was not sodomy, but rape. -------------------- "It's sort of like Star Wars. Except Jeff didn't make Erika shoot first in Avernum 3, nor did he introduce annoying computer-animated aliens." —Arancaytar The Spiderweb Chat Room Shadow Vale - My site, home of the Spiderweb Chat Database, BoA Scenario Database, & the A1 Quest List, among other things. Posts: 178 | Registered: Thursday, April 6 2006 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Saturday, February 24 2007 16:43
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Here is what Isaiah has to say about the primary offense of Sodom in God's eyes: Isaiah 16:49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom: pride, fulness of bread, and prosperous ease was in her and in her daughters; neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. 50 And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good. The very last thing mentioned is abomination, which may or may not have been speaking of anything sexual. Would not pride and despising the poor and needy be abominable in the eyes of a God Who instructs neighbor to love neighbor? EDIT: This is very interesting too: a prophesied restoration of the obliterated city/people (and others) by Ezekiel. What shall we make of this? Ezekiel 16:55 As for your sisters, Sodom and her daughters shall return to their former estate, and Sama'ria and her daughters shall return to their former estate; and you and your daughters shall return to your former estate. Israel has of 1948 returned to its former estate of nationhood. Is Sodom to be restored in some fashion? If you believe in the promises of scriptures, then it seems this sort of promise also needs to be reconciled with the nature of God and judgements. Are they utterly permanent? -S- [ Saturday, February 24, 2007 16:50: Message edited by: Synergy ] -------------------- A4 Item Locations A4 Singleton G4 Items List G4 Forging List The Insidious Infiltrator Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Warrior
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written Saturday, February 24 2007 18:19
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I was referring to Genesis, where the sexual iniquity actually takes place. -------------------- "It's sort of like Star Wars. Except Jeff didn't make Erika shoot first in Avernum 3, nor did he introduce annoying computer-animated aliens." —Arancaytar The Spiderweb Chat Room Shadow Vale - My site, home of the Spiderweb Chat Database, BoA Scenario Database, & the A1 Quest List, among other things. Posts: 178 | Registered: Thursday, April 6 2006 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Saturday, February 24 2007 18:40
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At the time of Sodom's destruction the only Jews were Abraham and Sarah, so I doubt Jews started homosexuality. They did put proscriptions against it in the Bible that the Christian church uses against all but their own priests. Back to some earlier things. Slavery was what allowed the rise of Greek civilization. With the slaves doing the work, it was possible to free up time to develop the arts and sciences. It wasn't great for the slaves, but that gets glossed over in all but college level history classes. Colonialism is a polite term for conquered areas. The winner of the conflict now runs the territory with the conquered people either enslaved or beneath the new lords that run the country. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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Warrior
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written Saturday, February 24 2007 18:58
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I meant that Jews started the idea that Sodom was destroyed because of homosexuality, not that they started homosexuality. :P -------------------- "It's sort of like Star Wars. Except Jeff didn't make Erika shoot first in Avernum 3, nor did he introduce annoying computer-animated aliens." —Arancaytar The Spiderweb Chat Room Shadow Vale - My site, home of the Spiderweb Chat Database, BoA Scenario Database, & the A1 Quest List, among other things. Posts: 178 | Registered: Thursday, April 6 2006 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Saturday, February 24 2007 19:03
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Genesis is kind of vague on the actual sin so it could have been bestiality, incest, and a few other weird acts. What is clear was they wanted to something to the angels that were Lot's guests that wasn't considered normal hospitality. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Saturday, February 24 2007 19:48
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Another fun fact of the Genesis 19 Sodom story to note is that the angels (a word that simply means "messenger") are seen to be men by the people of Sodom. 4 ¶ But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both young and old, all the people from every quarter; 5 and they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men that came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them. But more than this, they are called men by the narrative itself: 10 But the men put forth their hand, and brought Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door. 12 And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son-in-law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whomsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of the place A careful poring through the scriptures shows no evidence for angels being a separate race of spiritual beings, as popular tradition holds unquestioningly. They are seen and experienced as men, even if men sent from a heavenly realm. Also, a witch successfully contacts the spirit of Samuel, the dead prophet. So, why do angels need to be seen as anything other than the spirits of men who are presently inhabiting the spiritual plane, rather than on the earthly? The separate race of angels notion is entirely extra-biblical. It's funny how many foundational beliefs aren't even supported by the actual texts. There's all kinds of trippy stuff in there I never heard from the pulpit or in class, when I was a kid sitting in church. -S- -------------------- A4 Item Locations A4 Singleton G4 Items List G4 Forging List The Insidious Infiltrator Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Saturday, February 24 2007 20:55
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Oh no, Kel is responding to Synergy! Must be another fight! I wonder if I'll be irrationally chastised for this, too! I have heard a few times that the moral of the story about Sodom is, "Don't gang-rape angels." If you must gang-rape something, make sure that it is not the blessed messengers of God. :P quote:I don't think that anyone knows exactly where it started, but it is definitely a Classical Attic thing, not spread through all of Greece at all periods. Classical Attic Greek culture became the overwhelmingly dominant culture in the time of Alexander the Great, but with some modifications, and I don't know in what manner the Hellenistic Age and the succeeding Eastern Roman Empire received this romantic heritage. Homer (or so I'm told — I'm only just now reading the entire Iliad closely) has a perfect opportunity to describe some sort of man-boy love in the context of Achilles and Patroclus, but he doesn't play the romantic aspect up at all, so we can conjecture that Greek Dark Age culture didn't really have this man-boy thing as strongly. We can see in comedy that other parts of Greece (Sparta, Corinth, etc.) had different stereotypical sexual tendencies. To keep this a family show, I won't go into details, but let me just say that Lysistrata (among others) gives some indication that Spartans were thought to enjoy doing their unnatural acts with women, which the Athenians found comical and perverse. In Roman culture in the west — and I've spent the past year reading Latin love poems — man-boy love was still considered pretty normal, but man-woman love was also considered extremely normal. quote:I'd be interested to know what instance you're thinking of when this actually happened. The only one that's coming to mind right now is the story of the origin of the Castilian lisp — namely, that one of the old kings of Spain, maybe King Charles V, had a lisp, and everyone imitated him to be fashionable — which is untrue. This leads me to doubt such stories. That's not to say that this never happens, though; what instance were you thinking of? quote:There is some indication of this, if I remember correctly, but this is clearly not the only factor involved. No one says, "We screw boys because the alternative is women, who are gross." If I'm not mistaken, some suggest that, since men are just the most perfect creations in the universe, men being with men is unifying the greatest with the greatest, and that's why they do it. This is somewhat beyond my ken, though, and I know there's a lot more to it than that. quote:This distantly reminds me of a quote from DB that is just at the tip of my tongue. :P I can't quite recall it. Perhaps someone else knows. [ Saturday, February 24, 2007 21:09: Message edited by: Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Saturday, February 24 2007 21:47
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quote:There will be fisticuffs, explosions, treachery, and dancing hamsters! I truly welcome any discourse with you at any point, Kel, really. You show yourself to be a peaceable and reasonable person, which I greatly appreciate, and you’re growing on me all the time. Shh, don’t tell anyone. I really wasn’t feeling angry at you in yesterday’s boxing matches, like I said. I was feeling passionate about defending some sense of my integrity in the public eye. I was feeling angry at someone else eventually, to my disappointment. If we want to discuss the nature of relationships further, I will welcome a wholly non-incindiary continuance of that topic somewhere if someone wants to start one up. Maybe it will naturally re-emerge at some point in the future. Meanwhile, I was expecting and hoping you might have something to contribute to this topic. Thanks for the useful and interesting historical info. quote:[/b] We could look at what that Jesus guy started, to name one. I don’t know of much in the way of historically-known examples, though. It’s just my sense of how things begin in the world: with one person, one small group, one new idea or discovery, one place, though I’m not suggesting these things happen in a vacuum. I think most early histories of nations and how they formed their attitudes and beliefs are so often shrouded in the mists of time, we may never know the quiet, humble beginnings of what become national identities and the markers of eras. On an admittedly inane contemporary level, we can see how one clown somewhere in America can come up with a new dumb joke, and a few years later, and even a generation later, it seems like every kid in America knows and reveres it. Yet we know that one mind first came up with it somewhere. But now it's virtually a universal part of American culture. I’m also aware, how on smaller scales one person in a position of authority or influence can dramatically set the tone for an entire environment or even a nation. I work in an environment right now which can readily be pretty wretched if there is someone humorless, rigid, or control-freaky at the top. Thanks to one woman who runs the operation and sets the tone, it is one of the most wonderful places I could hope to be working. One person can have such influence from the top down, and it is often infectious. Rome is said to have started with Romulus and Remus of the wolves...I wonder what the actual startings of such nations were like with the real persons involved? I think a lot of the flavors of nations and cultures may well trace back to some simple, early influences, which may have been one person of influence in an early tribe or whatnot. It’s just my theory, though. I can’t validate it. quote:The Greeks: the ultimate patriarchal narcissists? -S- -------------------- A4 Item Locations A4 Singleton G4 Items List G4 Forging List The Insidious Infiltrator Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
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written Saturday, February 24 2007 22:38
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Oh, one other thing: I think it's interesting to ask the reverse question, too, namely, why is our modern concept of same-sex relations so totally different from that of the Romans and Greeks? Evidently, the modern notions are descended from Jewish culture, passed through Christianity, which in a swoop in Late Antiquity wiped out large parts of the old culture with the old religion. Early Christianity disapproved of the man-boy thing, and that's why it died out. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Sunday, February 25 2007 01:01
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quote:Potpourri. Edit - Added quote for clarity. [ Sunday, February 25, 2007 01:03: Message edited by: Spent Salmon ] -------------------- quote: Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
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written Sunday, February 25 2007 08:07
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quote:Yes, that really clears it up. :rolleyes: -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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La Canaliste
Member # 5563
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written Sunday, February 25 2007 10:48
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quote:*is ashamed for taking this literally* -------------------- I am a mater of time and how . Deep down, you know you should have voted for Alcritas! Posts: 387 | Registered: Tuesday, March 1 2005 08:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Sunday, February 25 2007 13:32
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Hey, that's nothing compared to all the double entendres I scrupulously edited out. See how civilization has progressed? -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Sunday, February 25 2007 18:32
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I tried to imagine what TM would have done with Student of Trinity's post and started shuddering. Even that version was too easy. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |