Mitochondria and Cancer

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AuthorTopic: Mitochondria and Cancer
Guardian
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Just wanted to throw this out there; mostly because my high school understanding of this subject is woefully inadequate. There's also this:
quote:
However, as DCA is not patented, Michelakis is concerned that it may be difficult to find funding from private investors to test DCA in clinical trials.
Comments?

(Dichloroacetate.)

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Posts: 1509 | Registered: Tuesday, January 10 2006 08:00
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It's exactly what it sounds like. If a company can't patent it, they're not going to bother researching it because no matter how well it works there's no way to make a profit. If it does work that well I'd be surprised if there weren't studies either planned for the near future or already underway in research labs. In fact, since it's known, the latter sounds a lot more likely.

—Alorael, who would guess that clinical trials will wait until the mechanism is understood better, it's shown to be relatively harmless and very effective in vitro, or someone gets permission to have a clinical trial based on low potential for harm in patients who are already dying of cancer.
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
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Fascinating. What, exactly, are you confused about? Cancer or this little molecule?

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Posts: 794 | Registered: Thursday, July 27 2006 07:00
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quote:
I have been suspicious of the pharmaceutical industry for years, convinced that innocent lives were intentionally being forfeited in the name of profits. I believe this is finally going to be proven in the coming months. The big drug companies do not want cures, they want R/X patients to be dependent on them for life, ensuring their own futures through profits. If it is found they intentionally avoided cures by steering research dollars away from 'sensitive' areas, there should be criminal charges and prosecutions. I can't help but wonder how many of our deceased loved ones should still be alive today if it weren't for the greed of the big pharms. Lastly, with the huge cost for cancer treatments, Health Canada should be mandating the follow-up and procurement of these DCA treatments. I recognize the economy of the country could be threatened by the collapse of the cancer 'industry' but how can human sacrifice be justified?
This commenter is an idiot, and a borderline conspiracy theorist to boot. If it weren't for the greed of Big Pharma, they wouldn't bother making and selling drugs at all and there'd be a lot more people dead than there are. What he actually seems to want is for somebody to throw millions of dollars into medical research when they can't reasonably expect to make enough money to recoup their costs. Which is a fine thing to do, but a lousy basis to build an industry on. Corporations are like wild animals; the ones that survive are the ones that do what's necessary to survive. They can be tamed somewhat by governments and the public, but expecting them to exercise social responsibility on their own betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of why they exist.

Now, I don't know that this drug works and I don't know that it doesn't work. All I know is that research into it is being taken seriously, is already receiving funding, and now that it's made it into the news is very likely to continue to receive funding. Which is all we can expect, really.

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Agent
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While funding research into a hopelessly unprofitable drug is not good business sense, it would still be an unforgivable travesty. I do not think that the pharmaceutical industry intends to make their money by intentionally keeping people sick, but I know that letting a potential opportunity like this fade away into obscurity would be downright sinful.

I tend not to raise up my hopes the first time I hear news of a possible, cheap miracle drug. Nevertheless, new findings into the sinister inner workings of a cancer cell will benefit us all.

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Posts: 1415 | Registered: Thursday, March 27 2003 08:00
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quote:
Originally written by Garrison:

I do not think that the pharmaceutical industry intends to make their money by intentionally keeping people sick...
...although Microsoft maintains high profits by deliberately ignoring bugs in each updated version of their programs, leaving people unsatisfied, and, therefore, more likely to buy more upgrades.

Poo to them.

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[ Thursday, January 25, 2007 18:42: Message edited by: Robinator is a Beefcake ]

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Shaper
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We've had this discussion before.

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If I were a giant, self-centered pharmaceutical company, I would be dashing to sponsor research trials for a promising cancer treatment with little potential for profit. If it actually panned out, the payout in good publicity would be unimaginable, and priceless.

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You always have government funding for research that isn't profitable for companies, but might have real potential.

Microsoft writes buggy software because they steal code from other companies and don't spend time of writing good code. Only recently was their a penalty for writing bad code and it still only made a slight improvement.

I think back for Windows 2000, the Wall Street Journal wrote a story about a typical day for Microsoft programmers. They start the morning getting the overnight bug report from the beta testers. They spend the morning fixing yesterday's work. After lunch they write new code if they finished fixed their old mistakes. Then they go home and the beta testers get to find out how many new bugs made it into the program. Eventually the product is sold with whatever bugs leftover for the next upgrade.
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Despite several recent advertising blitzes by pharmaceutical companies, I don't really understand what good public opinion does for pharma. The public doesn't get to choose to be consumers. That decision largely rests in the hands of doctors, and those doctors are making medical, not moral, decisions when they determine which therapies are most likely to be successful.

While R&D is a big part of the cost of producing new drugs, the testing and clinical trials are also long, expensive, and especially heavy on administrative overhead. Even treating patients with sugar pills is expensive. Drug companies have no interest in assuming that cost. Fortunately, that's what public research is for: the government is happy to fund and even carry out the research for potentially useful and potentially cheap medicine.

—Alorael, who is more worried about the fates of drugs that are developed and approved but then not manufactured because the demand is so low that the company can't expect to profit. What should be done? Is the government obligated to purchase the patent, make the drug, and take the loss from taxpayers for the benefit of a few victims of rare diseases?
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
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quote:
Originally written by Semitanic:

Despite several recent advertising blitzes by pharmaceutical companies, I don't really understand what good public opinion does for pharma. The public doesn't get to choose to be consumers. That decision largely rests in the hands of doctors, and those doctors are making medical, not moral, decisions when they determine which therapies are most likely to be successful.
As a particularly illustrative example, some of the major pharmaceutical companies have entirely ceased research into new antibiotics for treating antibiotic-resistant bacterial infections, because there isn't enough potential for profit in them. Pharmaceutical companies provide a valuable service (and charge accordingly whenever they can get away with doing so), but history shows you can't expect them to do much good beyond what they'll be paid for.

quote:
—Alorael, who is more worried about the fates of drugs that are developed and approved but then not manufactured because the demand is so low that the company can't expect to profit. What should be done? Is the government obligated to purchase the patent, make the drug, and take the loss from taxpayers for the benefit of a few victims of rare diseases?
These are called orphan drugs, and both the US and EU provide various subsidies to companies that make them. Even with these subsidies, though, drugs for diseases that affect fewer than about 6000 people tend not to be profitable to manufacture -- and that's in developed countries. Malaria may affect a lot of people, but since most of them don't have a whole lot of money to pay for treatment, research into new antimalarials is on the backburner. Manufacturers of quinine make more money selling it to tonic water bottlers than selling it to malaria patients.

Eflornithine, a drug used to treat African sleeping sickness, is another example of a drug that it doesn't make much economic sense to manufacture. It has a single manufacturer which donates about $5 million worth of the drug to the World Health Organisation every year. There just isn't much of a market for a drug to treat a rare disease that mostly affects poor people. However, the manufacturer has been stepping up production and selling it in developed countries... because it also turns out to be an effective hair removal agent. :/

What all this boils down to is that if you're living in poverty and suffering from some horrible disease, you'd better hope that the best drug for treating it also helps make rich people pretty.

[ Thursday, January 25, 2007 23:46: Message edited by: Cryptozoology ]

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Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
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I'm aware of the fate of medicines that draw no money, but I'm interested in hearing the opinions of Spiderweb's learned. It's a very heavily capitalist system, and it works, but I don't think I've ever heard of anyone liking it. I'd like to know who has a plan for doing it better.

—Alorael, who overlooked an even bigger mystery of advertising. Drug companies talking about how they help sick people get better are improving their images for unclear reasons. But what about the companies advertising specific prescription drugs? How many people successfully march into the doctor's office and demand X? Obviously enough to make advertising lucrative, but what does that say about doctors and ad viewers?
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
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quote:
Originally written by Semitanic:

—Alorael, who overlooked an even bigger mystery of advertising. Drug companies talking about how they help sick people get better are improving their images for unclear reasons. But what about the companies advertising specific prescription drugs? How many people successfully march into the doctor's office and demand X? Obviously enough to make advertising lucrative, but what does that say about doctors and ad viewers?
Funny you should mention that -- drug companies aren't allowed to advertise prescription medications by name in Australia. All they can do is make very vague ads along the lines of "Bladder dysfunction? There is a treatment for you. Talk to your doctor." And yes, that is a haiku.

(Of course, it's perfectly legal for drug companies to advertise specific prescription medications to doctors...)

[ Thursday, January 25, 2007 23:50: Message edited by: Cryptozoology ]

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Drug makers spend lots of money sending representatives to visit doctors and convince them to prescribe their drugs. The side effects and the fact that their drug maybe no better than a placebo (sugar pill) are usually minimized.

They also like to push off label usage where they claim that it will help for other diseases that haven't been approved by the FDA. Sometimes these case are pure fraud and only harm patients. An example is antidepressants to elderly for dementia where it doesn't help and can increase the chance of bone fractures.
Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00
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quote:
Originally written by Randomizer:

Drug makers spend lots of money sending representatives to visit doctors and convince them to prescribe their drugs. The side effects and the fact that their drug maybe no better than a placebo (sugar pill) are usually minimized.
Just to be clear, if the drug has side effects that are more severe than its demonstrated benefits, it doesn't get FDA approval, so what you're saying is exaggerated.

quote:
They also like to push off label usage where they claim that it will help for other diseases that haven't been approved by the FDA. Sometimes these case are pure fraud and only harm patients. An example is antidepressants to elderly for dementia where it doesn't help and can increase the chance of bone fractures.
As a percentage of all medicines pushed by drug companies, the fraudulent ones are fairly small. I'm not denying that this happens -- obviously it does -- but not often. (Not due to any moral reason, just that fraud usually isn't profitable in the long run.)

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Semantics are suggestive, and perhaps carefully chosen. Side effects are effects just as much as the intended "primary" effect(s).

-S-

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quote:
Originally written by Deprecaticon:

If I were a giant, self-centered pharmaceutical company, I would be dashing to sponsor research trials for a promising cancer treatment with little potential for profit. If it actually panned out, the payout in good publicity would be unimaginable, and priceless.
Knowing somebody who works in that industry, I can say that there's a lot more to funding and organizing research trials than it looks like.

Developing and testing a new drug takes billions in advance investment and the better part of a decade before it can be marketed - some companies are bankrupted by a single spectacular failure.

So while good publicity is worth a lot, most pharma companies won't risk such a flop without being pretty sure they'll succeed.

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Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00
Guardian
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By Sarasaphilia:
quote:
Fascinating. What, exactly, are you confused about? Cancer or this little molecule?
I was more interested in the whole 'Bad mitochondrial function may not just be a result of cancer', and was wondering if anyone here did any cellular research (not overly likely) or just knew more about cell function than me (very likely). But the Big Pharma discussion is enlightening too.

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quote:
Originally written by 7Synergy7:

Semantics are suggestive, and perhaps carefully chosen. Side effects are effects just as much as the intended "primary" effect(s).
They're not meaningless semantics. You're not given chemotherapy so that your hair false out and you feel terrible, although those happen. You're given chemotherapy so that you can recover from cancer. There is an intended effect and there are other effects, often toxic, that are documented and acknowledged.

—Alorael, who actually was completely unaware of any link between cancer and mitochondrial dysfunction. Classifying cancer as a metabolic disease would be a big paradigm shift.
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I read something interesting about there only being 17 basic gene sequences of mitochondria throughout humanity. It was in a National Geographic that I can't find. Just try to imagine how profound it was, or ask Cryptozoology.

[ Friday, January 26, 2007 20:03: Message edited by: Robinator is a Beefcake ]

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quote:
Originally written by Semitanic:

—Alorael, who actually was completely unaware of any link between cancer and mitochondrial dysfunction. Classifying cancer as a metabolic disease would be a big paradigm shift.
Not so much as you might think. We've known for a while that if you put a single cancer cell in culture with a lot of normal cells around it, sometimes it will revert to a normal phenotype -- not always, but often enough to be very interesting. It's clear that in addition to a cell's genetics, its local environment plays a significant part in whether or not it becomes cancerous.

quote:
Originally posted by Robinator:
However, if the cause really does lie in the mitochondria, this is especially interesting since the organelles have their own DNA, unrelated to the genetic DNA of their owner. Hmmm...
Fun fact: some things can have multiple contributing causes. Also, quite a lot of mitochondrial proteins are coded for by nuclear DNA.

quote:
Oh, and a quick fact: since mitochondrial DNA isn't affected by reproduction like genetic DNA, there are only about 17 different sequences of mitochondrial DNA in all of humanity.
This is just BS and I don't know where you got it from. Mitochondrial DNA doesn't undergo recombination like nuclear DNA does, but it still varies from person to person due to mutations.

[ Friday, January 26, 2007 15:26: Message edited by: Cryptozoology ]

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quote:
Originally written by Keladon:

Just to be clear, if the drug has side effects that are more severe than its demonstrated benefits, it doesn't get FDA approval, so what you're saying is exaggerated.

Actually you'd be amazed at how many make it through because the original clincial trials for approval are 6 weeks, but the patients after approval are given it for years. That's why Merck got in so much trouble with Vioxx over the cutoff date on their trials.

The second trick is to divide adverse effects into so many subcategories as to make the chance of an adverse effect seem to be less than 1%. Flip through the Physician's Desk Reference and see how many ways digestive bleeding can be listed by site.

Unless you get fatalities you can usually continue to sell drugs with major problems. Thalidomide is making a comeback as long as it doesn't go to pregnant women. Most anti-ulcer drugs that are now over the counter, Tagamet, Zantac, and Pepcid, are now known to cause memory loss and other brain damage. Some antidepressants can cause mood changes making the users violent to the point of murder.
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On second thought...

quote:
Unlike nuclear DNA in which the genes are rearranged by ~50% each generation (due to the process called recombination), there is usually no change in mtDNA from parent to offspring by this mechanism. Because of this and the fact that its mutation rate is higher than nuclear DNA and easily measured, mtDNA is a powerful tool for tracking matrilineage, and has been used in this role for tracking many species back hundreds of generations.
—Wikipedia

Although if you don't trust Wikipedia...

quote:
The human genetic code, or genome, is 99.9 percent identical throughout the world. What's left is the DNA responsible for our individual differences—in eye color or disease risk, for example—as well as some that serves no apparent function at all. Once in an evolutionary blue moon, a random, harmless mutation can occur in one of these functionless stretches, which is then passed down to all of that person's descendants. Generations later, finding that same mutation, or marker, in two people's DNA indicates that they share the same ancestor. By comparing markers in many different populations, scientists can trace their ancestral connections.

In most of the genome, these minute changes are obscured by the genetic reshuffling that takes place each time a mother and father's DNA combine to make a child. Luckily a couple of regions preserve the telltale variations. One, called mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA), is passed down intact from mother to child. Similarly, most of the Y chromosome, which determines maleness, travels intact from father to son.

National Geographic

I'm working on the thing about base sequences.

[ Friday, January 26, 2007 20:14: Message edited by: Robinator is a Beefcake ]

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Please point out what part of what you just posted disagrees with anything that I posted.

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quote:
Originally written by Robinator is a Beefcake:

On second thought...

quote:
Unlike nuclear DNA in which the genes are rearranged by ~50% each generation (due to the process called recombination), there is usually no change in mtDNA from parent to offspring by this mechanism. Because of this and the fact that its mutation rate is higher than nuclear DNA and easily measured, mtDNA is a powerful tool for tracking matrilineage, and has been used in this role for tracking many species back hundreds of generations.
—Wikipedia

Yes, this is exactly what Thuryl was saying. See my italics above.

EDIT: Or you could just snipe me.

[ Friday, January 26, 2007 21:07: Message edited by: Deprecaticon ]

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