Yarrr... Linux!
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Warrior
Member # 6689
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written Saturday, January 14 2006 18:44
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Let me start by saying this: I'm a communist. I hate money, I think it is a horrible thing and ruins many, capitalist or not. So naturally I hate corporations, who exist solely to attain money for their top employees (CEOs, etc). Microsoft is one of the very largest corporations in the world. It's product "Winblows haXP" is a very poor operating system which is easily penetrated by your favorite flavor of malware. So I use Linux. I know many more of you out there dual boot Linux and Windows (and maybe Mac OS too!) just to play your favorite Spiderweb game. I certainly do, I play Avernum 3! But wouldn't it be great if Jeff (or anyone else) could port the games to Linux? The only Spiderweb game ever ported to Linux is Exile 3, and at this point the game is primitive and outdated by a long shot. I'd love to see our favorite games in Linux flavors. Linux is much more similar to Mac OS than Windows, IIRC, so perhaps it would not be too much trouble. Or is this just wishful thinking? I do a lot of that, hehe. More wishful yet, if Jeff's games were open source. Or perhaps if Blades games were. The community would be vastly larger and more productive! But seriously! I'd love a Linux port! Then I don't have to singe my retinas looking at this Start button all day... -------------------- --Dachnaz Posts: 50 | Registered: Saturday, January 14 2006 08:00 |
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Master
Member # 4614
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written Saturday, January 14 2006 19:23
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My Start button, though it is a nicely green, shadowed button with the quad-color logo, I seem to be able to keep my attention off of it. When playing all the Spiderweb games that work on Windows and not Linux. I really doubt many people actually play Spiderweb games (or anything) on Linux, so it would not be that advantageous to spend a bunch of time porting all the games to Linux so they can be played by *cough* you *cough* when there's other viable options out there waiting for you. Maybe the software you'll be able to use should have ranked higher up on your OS choice than the sheer number of over-worried about worms and viruses. But anyway. Good for you. We all respect your choice of using Linux. Reap its benfits that we don't get. Welcome to Spiderweb, leave the rest of your sanity at the door. [ Saturday, January 14, 2006 19:24: Message edited by: ben12C8 ] -------------------- -ben4808 Posts: 3360 | Registered: Friday, June 25 2004 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 1468
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written Saturday, January 14 2006 19:34
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quote:Very wishful indeed. If the games were open-source, it would be fairly easy to |-|@><><0|2 them. quote:Communism has it's heart in the right place, but it's executed poorly. It fails to take human nature into account. Instead of everyone becoming equally rich, everyone becomes equally poor. Besides, it's a terrible restriction on freedom, which is wrong. Anyways... quote:How humorous. I've heard it called other things that are less appropriate, so I won't go into that. It's not that it's easily penetrated by malware (which may or may not be true, I don't know), it's that almost everybody who writes malware writes it for Windows. If Linux was the most popular, then most malware would be written for it. Actually, since Linux is open-source, it would probably be easier to write malware for it, since you would be able to see all the security flaws, and because the average user wouldn't be improving their security code. quote:Even though I don't use Linux, I'll have to agree with you there. More options = good. Plus, if he ported all his games to Linux, he would be able to cater to more people, bring in more cash, and (possibly) have a better community (due to there being more people). quote:Or keep it in an unbreakable, password protected sanity jar keyed to your DNA. -------------------- "We can learn a lot from crayons. Some are short, some are dull, some are sharp, some are tall. Some have funny names and they are all different colors, but they all learn to live in the same box." "Happy is the man that has wisdom and gets discernment. For having wisdom as gain is better than having silver as gain and having wisdom as produce is better than gold itself" Proverbs 3:14-3:15 The horrible part about life is, you'll never get out of it alive. Currently boycotting: AngelFire, GameFAQ's, Macintosh PC's Posts: 818 | Registered: Tuesday, July 9 2002 07:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Saturday, January 14 2006 20:12
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Dikiyoba has been welcomed but nobody's told Dikiyoba to leave Dikiyoba's sanity at the door. Then again, *i once said that Dikiyoba may be from a mental insitution, so... Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 6689
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written Saturday, January 14 2006 20:34
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quote:Oh, I usually use Linux for gaming! I play UT2004 (mainly Red Orchestra, my mod of choice), Doom 3, Neverwinter Nights, various Super Nintendo games, all sorts of Flash/Java intarwebz games, Planeshift, and some other MMORPGs you've probably never heard of on my GNU/Linux (Gentoo distro) operating system. I use GRUB as my bootloader, so I may pick between various kernel compilations of Gentoo and Windows XP when my computer turns on. I use Windows for things that require Flash 8 (a few Weebl and Bob toons on the web) and the occasional foray into Covenant defenses (Halo, quick violent fun) and of course Avernum 3, Nethergate, etc. I use Windows maybe 10% of the time since it is not fully functional for me (it seems so very easy to pick up malware!); my printer cannot tolerate its Windows drivers. Not to mention, Windows' twinview nVidia drivers are not anywhere near as good as Linux's. As a result, when in Windows I use only one monitor. quote:This will always be a problem for MMOs. But who cares about single-player games? Woo, scary, he haxxed himself extra hitpoints! Heh, the Character Editor can already do that! Many single-player games I know of that are Linux-native are open-source. I'd be a bit scrapped to name some that are not! Of course, if Avernum were a multiplayer game I could understand completely why one would want to keep it closed-source. But if, for instance, Blades of Avernum were open-source, then one could make all kinds of pretty darned sweet mods for it! The point of open source is so that people CAN haxxor it to make mods that let people have more fun. Blades of Avernum is more than halfway there with scenario/campaign editing. It's a really sweet idea already! quote:Never say this to a communist. If I had my way, there would be no money at all, no poor or rich. I realize that unfortunately living organisms are insanely greedy by nature. It's the way that they survive. Imagine if humans were one blissful collective community living in peace with everything everyone wants. In this society you can have as much fun as you want to the extent that you must keep in mind your work. Imagine everyone in the world being employed with equal hours as everyone else. Nobody would be hungry because people would eat equally (according to their physical needs). Clearly no country has anywhere near the organizational capacity to institute such a ... "utopian" system. But it's something to dream about. quote:True! quote:Probably untrue! You may be able to see all security flaws in theoretical systems, but bear in mind that open source stuff is compiled on a case-by-case basis and may be altered (drastically) from system to system. Usually it is not, but this will always be a major roadblock to hax0rs. There are enough different and arcane distributions of Linux that the average user might not have such problems, while the average hax0r would have to research enough about so many different distros that he would just quit his malwork. And keep in mind that it takes a password that is (hopefully!) rather complex to have privelages enough to run malware. The innate security of having a root user would render your theoretically Linux-ported Windows-esque malware ineffective. Having thrown in my two cents for my creed(s), I must get back to the actual topic! Hippies like myself need games! I know the Linux community (check out http://www.linuxforums.org - my fave stop for Linuxy type folks) would be excited for such great games as the Avernum and Geneforge series to be Linux-native. I can always keep dirtying my hands with capitalist operating systems to play Avernum 3, but it would be lovely to not have to. But really, it would be great to have more flexibility with the games! -------------------- --Dachnaz Posts: 50 | Registered: Saturday, January 14 2006 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6489
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written Saturday, January 14 2006 20:34
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If Spiderweb games were ported to Linux, you can pretty much guarantee that I will play them. -------------------- "You're drinking liquor because you're thirsty? How nasty is your freaking water?" —Lazarus Spiderweb Chat Room Avernum RP • Summaries • OoC • Roster Shadow Vale - My site, home of the Spiderweb Chat Database, BoA Scenario Database, & the A1 Quest List, among other things. Posts: 1556 | Registered: Sunday, November 20 2005 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Saturday, January 14 2006 20:48
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quote:I think the main issue is that if SW games were open source, it'd be trivial to turn an unregistered copy of a game into a registered one. quote:As long as there are things that need to be done and people would rather not do them, I don't think it's really possible for a large society of humans to live like this. Which is all the more reason to develop artificial intelligence quickly so that the human species can go extinct, secure in the knowledge that we'll be replaced by something better than ourselves. [ Saturday, January 14, 2006 20:53: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Saturday, January 14 2006 21:19
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I've been told that Spiderweb's games run absolutely fine on emulators available to Linux users. Would there be any point at all in making them Linux-native, especially since Exile 3 reputedly runs better on an emulator in Linux than Linux-native? -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 1468
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written Saturday, January 14 2006 21:42
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quote:When I say |-|@><><0|2 them, I mean to illegally register them. When I'm referring to cheating, I use the term "nefariousness." quote:That's what I was trying to say with the whole "|-|@><><0|2" comment. quote:Exactly. Humans are, by nature, lazy, greedy, and celf-centered. That's why Communism will never work. If you give someone the same pay for lower-quality work, then they are naturally going to give you lower-quality work. quote:That wmight be nice, but it would never happen. See the "human nature" comment above. Regardless of how good it would be for society, people in general, or the planet, Communism still has increased restrictions on freedom when compared to Democracy and Capitalism, and restricting freedom is something I would never stand for. Nobody has the right to run another person's life in any way, with the exception of the "imminent danger" rule. If someone decides they want to trade products or services for some sort of currency unit, that's their right. That kinda goes hand-in-hand with the whole "free will" thing. IMHO, a utopian society would be run by a Direct Democracy/Capitalist Government, with maximum freedoms. Actually, it wouldn't be entirely utopian, because if everything in life is guaranteed perfect, life gets boring. The ups and downs of life make it interesting. -------------------- "We can learn a lot from crayons. Some are short, some are dull, some are sharp, some are tall. Some have funny names and they are all different colors, but they all learn to live in the same box." "Happy is the man that has wisdom and gets discernment. For having wisdom as gain is better than having silver as gain and having wisdom as produce is better than gold itself" Proverbs 3:14-3:15 The horrible part about life is, you'll never get out of it alive. Currently boycotting: AngelFire, GameFAQ's, Macintosh PC's Posts: 818 | Registered: Tuesday, July 9 2002 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Saturday, January 14 2006 21:49
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The number of people who use only Linux is very small. The number of people who use only Linux and can't play Spiderweb games because of it is zero. Jeff has no incentive to spend time and money porting to another platform when he could be working on something new. The Blades of Avernum editor is open source already. Making the program that runs scenarios open source would make Jeffs fears of each scenario requiring a different version well-founded, and he wouldn't make money because everyone could edit it to be registered. If Linux distributions are so different that a virus written for one can't run on another, doesn't that mean there are also cross-distribution issues for programs? Besides, I think the real protection is the one cited by Firefox and Wikipedia: while crackers can find holes to exploit, the number of people interested in maintaining security and protecting other users is larger. Problems are likely to be fixed before or very quickly after they are discovered by the unsavory folks. —Alorael, who can see no hope for communism. It has failed spectacularly several times in different situations and it's fairly clear that human nature does not get along with it. The proper ratio of capitalism to socialism for a functional utopian has yet to be determined (which has a whole mess of problems of its own), but eliminating all elements of capitalism is bound to cause large problems. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Saturday, January 14 2006 22:30
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And in any discussion of communism, it's worth pointing out that small-scale efforts do work (i.e. a kibbutz). It's just the large-scale Leninist-Stalinist-Maoist ones that fail spectacularly. I have heard that smaller, lesser-known communist countries (Yugoslavia) offered interesting different perspectives on the possible success and failure of the form of government. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Sunday, January 15 2006 00:02
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quote:While I don't have any personal experience with Linux, I can say fairly confidently from a casual reading of various Linux tech support forums that the answer to this question is "yes". -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Sunday, January 15 2006 00:51
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So wouldn't that make porting Spiderweb games to Linux an endless or inherently very imperfect task? —Alorael, who humbly suggests that the Linux port of E3 runs flawlessly. You just need to find the right distro for it. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 4557
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written Sunday, January 15 2006 00:57
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There shouldn't be an overly large number of compatibility issues with accordance to software. Developers who develop for Linux are essentially forced to use more standard methods, so the resultant code should be pretty versatile. However, compatibility issues arise with hardware almost ubiquitously, which, more often than not, translate into software issues. This Gentoo Linux of Semodius' seems geared to fix this, though I have no idea if it actually does. Posts: 264 | Registered: Wednesday, June 16 2004 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 6689
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written Sunday, January 15 2006 05:22
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There are only compatibility issues for people trying to install software for which they do not have all of the required dependencies. Gentoo (http://www.gentoo.org for reference) uses a system called Portage which is a package manager of sorts. Its tree is very complex and when installing something with it (for instance, '# emerge firefox' would download and compile Firefox) it first calculates all the dependencies and installs those before moving on to the requested application. I've had no trouble with Portage-installed stuff at all. Newer versions of software that have not been labeled officially stable by Gentoo yet can be unmasked and just as ready to install as anything else with a simple bash command I call 'unmask.' ------------------------------------------------ OFF TOPIC: A quick leap off-topic into communism... Stalin's communist system worked... for a while. At the start of his period in power he was not given much to work with - Lenin left him with a still crippled economy that was not nearly industrialized yet. He began collectivizing and rapidly industrializing with his five-year plans which often took more than five years and cost millions of lives. But with his 'communism' Russia managed to avoid the depression almost entirely. Unfortunately, communism does take into account human nature but tries to force it. That is, at least, the least intellectual way to make a communist state. Kill people and use fear like Stalin. You could alternatively use computers or brainwash people. I have no idea though. And of course communism is restrictive on 'freedom' compared to capitalism. It's an economic state that is entirely controlled by the government (the people!). That's the whole point! But you could have a democratic communism in a small community where people WANT communism. The point of communism is to control and limit peoples' greed (which is very revealing in capitalism). I believe in extreme limitation of peoples' 'freedom' to greed and 100% social liberty. You ought to be free to do what you like, except screw over the poor people and amass wealth for yourself and family. ------------------------------------------------ And back to Avernum! ^___^ The number of Linux users is small compared to Windows. I believe I read a report that listed Windows (3.1-XP) as 93% of the market. Mac OS users were 3%, and Linux were 3%. If I can find my way across the intarwebz again to this page I will link it. What emulator would you recommend for playing Avernum games on Linux? Is Wine okay? I don't like proprietary crap like Cedega! =P (edit: added lines to represent off-topic piece of conversation) [ Sunday, January 15, 2006 05:26: Message edited by: Semodius ] -------------------- --Dachnaz Posts: 50 | Registered: Saturday, January 14 2006 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 6654
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written Sunday, January 15 2006 06:04
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quote:This is certainly true at the very low level, but at the level games are coded at they become quite different. Mac and Linux API's are not the same. Porting from Mac to Linux would be at least as difficult as porting from Mac to Windows, unless Jeff is using some cross platform API (like SDL). That said, I think more Linux users would buy Spiderweb games than most of you think. Remember that despite the Mac's extremely small market share they are very disproportionally represented in Spiderweb's sales. Linux user's could turn out to be a lot like Mac users; desperate for more games on their platform and not picky about graphics. As for open source... I love open source. It's a fantastic concept, and has produced some great stuff. But, unfortunately, we do live in a capitalist society and people need to eat. Except in some very rare cases, open source doesn't put beans on the table. ------- Blarg! Posts: 11 | Registered: Sunday, January 8 2006 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 154
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written Sunday, January 15 2006 06:07
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quote:No, it isn't. People are just determined to hate Microsoft. quote:I've never had any viruses on my XP and 98 systems (I only recently installed anti-virus as an 'oh, what the heck') and no spyware since I secured them several years ago, which didn't even involve switching from IE. I only switched browsers relatively recently, I must have been using IE for 2 years at least after securing it without getting anything nasty from it. As for ports, I believe someone once said that the Windows version of Exile III under WINE runs better than the Linux port of Exile III itself runs. Does WINE not work on the Avernum series or something? Like Edlibs says, Windows is only a victim of it's success. quote:A common point, but that's also the reason it's secure, too. Sure, it's perhaps easier for exploiters to find vulnerabilities, but so is it for kernel developers and whatnot. And I'd imagine kernel developers know the source better than someone looking to just exploit it, it strikes me that they're more likely to pick up on vulnerabilies first. And like has already been said, it seems there are more kernel developers than people trying to exploit it. quote:Yes, but it shouldn't. Any protocol which can be hacked simply by having information on it is not fit to be on the internet, or for that matter, almost any network. It's like MMOs are excused from being secure and are allowed to push it all under the 'security by obscurity' rug. It's not like common protocols like POP3 and so forth are comparatively insecure; if MMOs can get hacked simply by people knowing their protocols, it's their own fault. But yes, I think he was referring to the fact that it would be easier to crack registration. quote:Assuming you're talking about WINE, WINE isn't an emulator, it's a compatibility layer. [ Sunday, January 15, 2006 06:10: Message edited by: Polyester ] -------------------- Apparently still annoying. Posts: 612 | Registered: Saturday, October 13 2001 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 6689
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written Sunday, January 15 2006 07:12
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Well pointed-out. I'm sure there's another way to do registration without making a seperate, cut down build for the demo. Hmmmmm... -------------------- --Dachnaz Posts: 50 | Registered: Saturday, January 14 2006 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 1468
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written Sunday, January 15 2006 09:56
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quote:I can understand the "not screwing over people" part, but what problem do you have with ammassing wealth? There is nothing inherently wrong with running an honest business to make sure you and your family (and your worker's families) have enough money to live off of. -------------------- "We can learn a lot from crayons. Some are short, some are dull, some are sharp, some are tall. Some have funny names and they are all different colors, but they all learn to live in the same box." "Happy is the man that has wisdom and gets discernment. For having wisdom as gain is better than having silver as gain and having wisdom as produce is better than gold itself" Proverbs 3:14-3:15 The horrible part about life is, you'll never get out of it alive. Currently boycotting: AngelFire, GameFAQ's, Macintosh PC's Posts: 818 | Registered: Tuesday, July 9 2002 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 6388
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written Sunday, January 15 2006 10:08
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Family wealth is a moral challenge for two reasons. First and foremost, the moral challenge of wealth, period; there is something inherently wrong with having a great amount of wealth while people are dying for want of basic resources. Lots and lots of people, by no fault of their own. And second, there's the moral challenge of inheritance. No matter how much you deserve your money (even in light of the fact the average Malien would sell their legs for half of it), what have your children done to deserve it? Nobody has the right to get born rich. I think communism is a critically flawed idea which makes horribly broad assumptions about history and mankind, but I still find something immoral and horrible about living fat while millions starve. We live in a wicked society. Posts: 794 | Registered: Tuesday, October 11 2005 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 4239
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written Sunday, January 15 2006 10:23
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quote:FIrst of all, democracy!=capitalism. Second, capitalism inherently restricts freedoms. Those with money and influence dictate to those without such resources. If those without refuse to be dictated to, they starve. The difference in ideal communism is that everybody is dictated to but nobody starves and people get put into jobs that suit their skills rather than the jobs they can reach with their socioeconomic background. In practice it can be different, but you still shouldn't assume that communism inherently has less total freedom than capitalism. -------------------- There are two kinds of game players...those who are newbies, and those who were. Posts: 322 | Registered: Monday, April 12 2004 07:00 |
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The Establishment
Member # 6
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written Sunday, January 15 2006 10:56
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A pure democracy is equally as bad a form of government because it inherently puts power in the hands of people who do not who do not understand it. Making coherent policies takes a lot of knowledge, research, and time. Expecting everyone to be knowledgeable enough to make informed decisions on every issue is perhaps even more utopian than communism. Ultimately, you end up with rhetoric and showmanship winning the day more than sound policy. More democracy does not mean better necessarily, despite a populist myth of equating democracy and good. Ultimately you need people with the most knowledge of their area making decisions. A benevolent and wise transparent oligarcy is probably the best form of government, but difficult to create in the real world. -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Sunday, January 15 2006 11:24
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Unfortunately, the people who would make the best decisions are often not the sort of people who want power and the people who want power are often not the ones who will make the best decisions. The types of people I absolutely hate are the ones who see the world in black and white. The world's too complex even for shades of gray. People have cones as well as rods in their eyes for a reason: to see in color. There is no simple yes/no or right/wrong (or left/right) answer to any complex issue. I find a lot of the people who talk in black and white are trying to make an individual decision into a societal one. But there is no way to get a large number of people to all behave in a rational, moral way. Even if you could, the world throws too many other obstacles into people's lives. That's why society has to provide backups for them. Dikiyoba. Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 1468
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written Sunday, January 15 2006 11:53
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quote:If those without starve to death, then so will those have have plenty. The wealthy need the poor to work for them to keep food on their tables. If the poor all starve, nobody is there to run the factories, clean the toilets, flip the burgers, etc. Also, nobody is there to buy the burgers, use the toilets, or whatever. In short, businesses would fail, the rich would become poor, and then they would starve, having been catered to all their lives. quote:True, but they do tend to go very well together. quote:That's why I like a Direct Democracy. You still have representatives, but they are all chosen by the people. None of this "electoral college" crap. That way, your vote really does count. quote:Absolutely true. However, sometimes it's very difficult to handle something on a case-by-case basis. Sometimes, you have to pick what will do the most good, and go with it. quote:So what you're saying is we should go empty our bank accounts, and sell anything we don't absolutely need to live, and then hand out money to random homeless people on the street? I don't know if it's because I'm an American, or because I'm human, but if my family is hungry, or in need of anything, they come first. If my father, brothers, or whatever are going hungry, I don't really care about anyone else. Sure, it's not other people's fault that they're going hungry, but I've got other things to worry about. Namely, the survival of my family tree first and foremost. quote:Trust me, if I ever get rich and have kids, they're going to earn their inheritance. None of this "free ride because Daddy's rich" crap. -------------------- "We can learn a lot from crayons. Some are short, some are dull, some are sharp, some are tall. Some have funny names and they are all different colors, but they all learn to live in the same box." "Happy is the man that has wisdom and gets discernment. For having wisdom as gain is better than having silver as gain and having wisdom as produce is better than gold itself" Proverbs 3:14-3:15 The horrible part about life is, you'll never get out of it alive. Currently boycotting: AngelFire, GameFAQ's, Macintosh PC's Posts: 818 | Registered: Tuesday, July 9 2002 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Sunday, January 15 2006 12:27
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I think the causality of Jeff's Mac audience has been reversed. He has a large Mac audience because his games start out for Mac. He'd have to generate a Linux audience from scratch. Linux users who can already play his games would be happy to have them ported to Linux, but they're not actually a new market representing more income. Communism (or socialism) is an economic system, not a political system. It just so happens that the only way to make humans behave under a communist system is by exerting a great deal of force from the top. Communism is "inherently" less free than capitalism because it requires the government to enforce communist policies. Pure apitalism does not require enforcement. In fact, it requires a lack of enforcement. The problems with capitalism have nothing to do with lack of freedom. Power of wealth an inertia would be better terms for the rich-poor divide and other phenomena of capitalism. Eldibs, what you described is indirect democracy. Direct democracy is everyone voting on all legislation, which as Stareye says has problems. It would also be a logistical mess and require way too much time and knowledge even from those interested and capable. —Alorael, who now sees too many debates going on in this thread to keep them all straight. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |