Do you like school?

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AuthorTopic: Do you like school?
By Committee
Member # 4233
Profile #75
Dude, I'm not putting forward my suggestions as hypotheticals - I'm stating the reality that I and all of my friends have encountered in the working world: people who can communicate well, on average, get paid a lot more.

There are a lot of crummy supervisors out there, but the good, competent ones who are able to effect positive change in their organizations are skilled communicators. Assuming you desire to be a good, competent worker and be rewarded for your work and aspire to a higher than entry-level position (maybe I go too far in this assumption), it would behoove you to take your writing studies seriously. The market is flooded with programmers. What employers are looking for is programmers that can also communicate, i.e., write reports in lay terms for clients, as well as give effective oral presentations.

What you get from high school writing classes that you don't from primary school classes is practice in coherently and cogently discussing abstract, complex concepts in writing. This capability is what is of immense value in university as well as the working world.

[ Monday, August 29, 2005 05:15: Message edited by: Drew ]
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Lifecrafter
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And I agree with that, but my point is four (required) classes on English is a little bit overkill. Three at most should be all you need.
High school is supposed to prepare you for college or a more simple career, not to get you ready to be an English Professor at Harvard.

[ Monday, August 29, 2005 05:42: Message edited by: Eldibs ]

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"We can learn a lot from crayons. Some are short, some are dull, some are sharp, some are tall. Some have funny names and they are all different colors, but they all learn to live in the same box."

"Happy is the man that has wisdom and gets discernment. For having wisdom as gain is better than having silver as gain and having wisdom as produce is better than gold itself" Proverbs 3:14-3:15

The horrible part about life is, you'll never get out of it alive.

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Posts: 818 | Registered: Tuesday, July 9 2002 07:00
Shock Trooper
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quote:
Originally written by Eldibs:

How does writing have anything to do with programming? The only thing I could see a programmer writing (on paper) is something in pseudocode or a flow chart. And the only thing that they should be typing is code for programs.

Although, as far as I know, most people do not think of programming this way, writing and programming are very similar. Most of the basic skills involved in writing are neccessary in a good programmer. While this was not true in the days of procedural programming and even a bit of object oriented programming, it is becoming more and more evident as C++ becomes more and more a language on par with the spoken word.

That being said, writing and programming are not exactly alike. A writer describes, while a programmer defines.

(Just to be clear, I am not saying writing is harder/better than programming or vice versa.)
Posts: 264 | Registered: Wednesday, June 16 2004 07:00
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I would put programming closer to construction engineering. Your job is to put something together, you have to figure out a way to make it work, then you put it together.

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"We can learn a lot from crayons. Some are short, some are dull, some are sharp, some are tall. Some have funny names and they are all different colors, but they all learn to live in the same box."

"Happy is the man that has wisdom and gets discernment. For having wisdom as gain is better than having silver as gain and having wisdom as produce is better than gold itself" Proverbs 3:14-3:15

The horrible part about life is, you'll never get out of it alive.

Currently boycotting: AngelFire, GameFAQ's
Everybody should go to this site at least once.
Posts: 818 | Registered: Tuesday, July 9 2002 07:00
Shock Trooper
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Not quite, but close. A programmer creates concepts and defines them, using the tools at his/her disposal. In a modern C++ sense, this would be essentially describing types such as objects/ideas/concepts and defining how they are to interact with each other in a theoretical playing field. Before putting things together, a programmer must first conceptualize/create the "things".

This should be kind of hard to grasp for programmer and nonprogrammer alike as it is rather complicated to explain, unless you've actually programmed like this.

On Topic:
What English courses are you taking? Any AP/IB or something of the same stature? Those tend to be more college oriented than the more than ridiculous Honors/Regular English courses.
Posts: 264 | Registered: Wednesday, June 16 2004 07:00
Lifecrafter
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Right now I'm taking English Composition, because the Math class I'm supposed to be in was full.

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"We can learn a lot from crayons. Some are short, some are dull, some are sharp, some are tall. Some have funny names and they are all different colors, but they all learn to live in the same box."

"Happy is the man that has wisdom and gets discernment. For having wisdom as gain is better than having silver as gain and having wisdom as produce is better than gold itself" Proverbs 3:14-3:15

The horrible part about life is, you'll never get out of it alive.

Currently boycotting: AngelFire, GameFAQ's
Everybody should go to this site at least once.
Posts: 818 | Registered: Tuesday, July 9 2002 07:00
Master
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Profile Homepage #81
And math is so much better than English.

Anyway, English is a skill you will need in life, Harvard professer or not. The more English, you have, the better your communication skills, reading speed and comprehension, composition skills, and basically the better you are with interacting with other people and sharing your ideas in an effective manner.

Without English, it's hard to succeed in anything else. (I guess the same goes for math, too, and I'm surprised most school don't require four credits of that as well.)

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-ben4808

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Posts: 3360 | Registered: Friday, June 25 2004 07:00
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However, a lot of the garbage that I had to do in English class didn't have anything to do with effective communication. "Read this work. Write an essay analyzing literary devices. Rinse. Repeat."

I never wrote a real argument essay or more than a couple creative pieces for a class in all of high school, and I think those two genres have as much to do with real-life writing as any other. Literary analysis has its place, but it sometimes gets exalted as not merely the most important thing to teach in an English class, but in fact the only thing to teach, and I think that's a mistake.

Learning to communicate effectively is important, but I'm not sure that high school English classes put that as their foremost priority.

At times I wish the literature and communication parts of English could be separated: reading lots of canonical great works of the English language is not necessarily directly related to learning how to get one's ideas across. The University of California (like many high schools) has a terrible problem recognizing this right now.

[ Monday, August 29, 2005 17:42: Message edited by: Kelandon ]

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Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
...b10010b...
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Eww, creative writing. I can't remember the last time I wrote anything I'd want a teacher to read. :P

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Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
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quote:
Eww, creative writing. I can't remember the last time I wrote anything I'd want a teacher to read.
Hmm... Today I wrote a paragraph entirely on cheesecake, so maybe it's not all bad.

quote:
The more English, you have, the better your communication skills, reading speed and comprehension, composition skills, and basically the better you are with interacting with other people and sharing your ideas in an effective manner.
Reading speed and comprehension were never any problem for me. It's the writing part that I hate. Well, hate probably isn't a strong enough word. It's more like absolutely loathe with every fiber of my being and all my heart and soul.

But anyways, I've said it before and I'll say it again...
Man, I'm gald I'm in a Technical College. I only have to take English and Math Classes related to my major.
And I think it should be 3 credits in all the core subjects in high school: Science, English, History, and Lunch... erm, I mean Math.

[ Monday, August 29, 2005 18:02: Message edited by: Eldibs ]

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"We can learn a lot from crayons. Some are short, some are dull, some are sharp, some are tall. Some have funny names and they are all different colors, but they all learn to live in the same box."

"Happy is the man that has wisdom and gets discernment. For having wisdom as gain is better than having silver as gain and having wisdom as produce is better than gold itself" Proverbs 3:14-3:15

The horrible part about life is, you'll never get out of it alive.

Currently boycotting: AngelFire, GameFAQ's
Everybody should go to this site at least once.
Posts: 818 | Registered: Tuesday, July 9 2002 07:00
...b10010b...
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quote:
Originally written by Eldibs:

History
*mutters incoherently*

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Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
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Based on past experience...

English: Eww, anglais. "Read passage. Write essay." "Analyse logical fallacies on this article." "Do research on this or that and write an essay on it." "You're a noob for taking this course of torture." I think I did okay on this, but since I took English (aka "Effective Writing") in the summer, I'm still in trauma.

History: Fun on paper, fun reading, lecture = zzzz. I dropped this course early on.

Economics: Easy stuff, could be marginally useful for me. Too bad I never had time to spend on it. That and the lectures/profs were boring.

Physics: I remember how easy this course was early on. I mean, I aced all of that Newtonian physics stuff. Then the Spring term came, and they started teaching all that multivariable calculus-related/quantum physics stuff that made me go WTF IS GOING ON SIRS. I ended up barely passing. It was an optional course and taking it was a bad idea.

Calculus: Starts easy, gets hard real quick, gets easy again with differentiation, then gets hard at the end with integration and Taylor series (but not ZOMFG IMPOSSIBLE). The course coordinator never gave us a 'for marks' problem set on the Taylor series and stuff at the end so I never mastered that. IIRC, I ended up with an 80 in Calculus, but that's because I got lots of oppurtunity to practice. And I'm better at math than the average Comp Sci student.

Programming/Logic: I'll be doing this all the time once I graduate anyway, so meh.

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Posts: 3323 | Registered: Thursday, April 25 2002 07:00
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I currently have only two kinds of lessons : finnish and professional education. And I have only four hours of finnish lessons in a week. Of 32 hours.

*Collapses on the floor, laughing*

[ Tuesday, August 30, 2005 04:12: Message edited by: Frozen Feet ]

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Somebody PLEASE turn the heat on.
Posts: 617 | Registered: Tuesday, April 13 2004 07:00
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Except for English Comp, all my classes are computer based. And I only have to take English 3 times a week.

--------------------
"We can learn a lot from crayons. Some are short, some are dull, some are sharp, some are tall. Some have funny names and they are all different colors, but they all learn to live in the same box."

"Happy is the man that has wisdom and gets discernment. For having wisdom as gain is better than having silver as gain and having wisdom as produce is better than gold itself" Proverbs 3:14-3:15

The horrible part about life is, you'll never get out of it alive.

Currently boycotting: AngelFire, GameFAQ's
Everybody should go to this site at least once.
Posts: 818 | Registered: Tuesday, July 9 2002 07:00
Master
Member # 4614
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Class descriptions? Fun.

1. Band
Usually pretty fun. Well, last year anyway. This year we have a new director, less than half the kids, and no drummer that can do anything besides basic beats. :/

2. Sophmore Comp
Lots of writing, but interesting so far. I have yet to see what's to come.

3. CISCO 1
Interesting, only we take a ton of notes, an underexperienced teacher, and have spent the last two days trying to get a grasp on the binary and hexadecimal number systems, which was not much new for me.

4. PE
Finally a chance to mess around and have a bunch of fun. As long as we behave.

5. Biology
Fun teacher, lots of notes, and too much emphasis on evolution. (Eh, whatever, I don't totally discredit it but don't believe in it fully.)

6. Algebra 2
Five days into the school year, it's still extremely easy.

7x + 2 = 16

I wonder. And I have to show every step. :mad:

7. Physics
Pretty cool so far. We just did some talk on basic motion, free fall, etc., and today we got to propel straws across a taut string with a balloon. That was fun, though our average speed was only 4.21 mph.

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-ben4808

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Posts: 3360 | Registered: Friday, June 25 2004 07:00
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Jumping on the "Effective communication is a tremendously important life skill, but English sucks at teaching it" bandwagon.

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Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00
Shaper
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English classes however will help people in communicating through writing.

Oh and I iz back :)

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Posts: 2395 | Registered: Friday, November 2 2001 08:00
Shaper
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Welcome back, VCH! How was whatever you were doing that made you absent?

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Polaris
Posts: 2396 | Registered: Saturday, January 29 2005 08:00
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My classes:
Operating Platforms- So far, we've just been working with DOS and WinXP, but we're supposed to work with Linux and the AS/400 sometime

Intro to computer programming- we learn the basic logic of programming, like loops, if-then's, etc.

English comp- we write about stuff

Internet programming- we work with html. Sometime we're supposed to work with javascript.

Intro to microcomputer usage- We basically learn how to use microsoft word, access, and excel

[ Wednesday, August 31, 2005 04:42: Message edited by: Eldibs ]

--------------------
"We can learn a lot from crayons. Some are short, some are dull, some are sharp, some are tall. Some have funny names and they are all different colors, but they all learn to live in the same box."

"Happy is the man that has wisdom and gets discernment. For having wisdom as gain is better than having silver as gain and having wisdom as produce is better than gold itself" Proverbs 3:14-3:15

The horrible part about life is, you'll never get out of it alive.

Currently boycotting: AngelFire, GameFAQ's
Everybody should go to this site at least once.
Posts: 818 | Registered: Tuesday, July 9 2002 07:00
Master
Member # 4614
Profile Homepage #94
Ooh, interesting. I'm quite fond of programming as well as HTML. There's a web design class at my school, but there's not much there to learn for me. (:/) Programming, no.

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-ben4808

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Posts: 3360 | Registered: Friday, June 25 2004 07:00
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I hate html, but I have to take it. It's required.

--------------------
"We can learn a lot from crayons. Some are short, some are dull, some are sharp, some are tall. Some have funny names and they are all different colors, but they all learn to live in the same box."

"Happy is the man that has wisdom and gets discernment. For having wisdom as gain is better than having silver as gain and having wisdom as produce is better than gold itself" Proverbs 3:14-3:15

The horrible part about life is, you'll never get out of it alive.

Currently boycotting: AngelFire, GameFAQ's
Everybody should go to this site at least once.
Posts: 818 | Registered: Tuesday, July 9 2002 07:00

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