Quote on charisma.
| Author | Topic: Quote on charisma. |
|---|---|
|
Agent
Member # 2210
|
written Tuesday, May 24 2005 04:09
Profile
Hello all, I find this quote from Peter Drucker to be worth pondering. I've always wondered about his hatred of charismatic leadership styles. "Charisma becomes the undoing of leaders. It makes them inflexible, convinced of their own infallibility, unable to change." -- Peter F. Drucker. -------------------- Wasting your time and mine looking for a good laugh. Star Bright, Star Light, Oh I Wish I May, I Wish Might, Wish For One Star Tonight. Posts: 1084 | Registered: Thursday, November 7 2002 08:00 |
|
...b10010b...
Member # 869
|
written Tuesday, May 24 2005 04:50
Profile
Homepage
The one insurmountable problem of relying on charismatic leadership to keep an organisation together is that leaders eventually die. -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
|
By Committee
Member # 4233
|
written Tuesday, May 24 2005 04:51
Profile
I think that's a poor sentiment. Charisma is an enabler, but it's what's at the core of a person that determines how the tool is used. Emperor Augustus was an incredible leader, for example. Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |
|
Shock Trooper
Member # 4214
|
written Tuesday, May 24 2005 06:00
Profile
quote:True, but he was certainly not flexible. "You will obey me!" he shouted when the senators argued about his decision to banish his daughter. Posts: 356 | Registered: Tuesday, April 6 2004 07:00 |
|
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
|
written Tuesday, May 24 2005 07:59
Profile
Homepage
He was pretty darn successful, though, so I don't think his charisma was his undoing. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
|
Shock Trooper
Member # 4214
|
written Tuesday, May 24 2005 09:05
Profile
I agree. I was merely pointing out that Octavianus was, indeed, inflexible. Posts: 356 | Registered: Tuesday, April 6 2004 07:00 |
|
Warrior
Member # 5822
|
written Tuesday, May 24 2005 11:00
Profile
Hitler was very charismatic... he could talk the devil into lighting himself on fire P.S. being charismatic is no excuse for stupidity or all the "unclean" people he killed [ Tuesday, May 24, 2005 11:01: Message edited by: shadow, the ] -------------------- who knows what darkness lurks in the hearts of men? the shadow knows ninjas are so better than pirates homerun Posts: 85 | Registered: Tuesday, May 17 2005 07:00 |
|
Law Bringer
Member # 335
|
written Tuesday, May 24 2005 13:25
Profile
Homepage
Shadow, that was almost entirely besides the point. I suppose Godwin's Law was inevitable here, though. Charisma is not at all the undoing of leaders, but it's unfortunate that charisma has so much to do with how we select our leaders. While genuine ability should be the criterion, those who are capable but not likeable generally languish while the loveable incompetents or evils rise to the top. —Alorael, who doesn't see what charisma has to do with flexibility at all. An inflexible leader can get his or her way more easily if he or she is charismatic, but a charismatic person is no more likely to be inflexible than a boor. In fact, charisma can in large part rest on the ability to make others believe that their leader is flexible and willing to compromise. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
|
Law Bringer
Member # 2984
|
written Tuesday, May 24 2005 19:48
Profile
Homepage
quote:And some hold that one of the key reasons his dictatorship was doomed from the start was that it was held together only by his charisma, and after he died naturally it would have crumbled anyhow. This can't be verified, of course, because he was defeated long before that. Alo, since there isn't any real disagreement, I wonder if Godwin's can be applied here. Normally, it implies a sort of hostile context, which we don't have here yet. -------------------- The Encyclopaedia Ermariana <-- Now a Wiki! "Polaris leers down from the black vault, winking hideously like an insane watching eye which strives to convey some strange message, yet recalls nothing save that it once had a message to convey." --- HP Lovecraft. "I single Aran out due to his nasty temperament, and his superior intellect." --- SupaNik Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
|
Law Bringer
Member # 335
|
written Tuesday, May 24 2005 21:39
Profile
Homepage
Invoking Hitler is always good for creating hostility. I'll agree, though. This may be the first time I've seen anything Nazi-related come up in a civil discussion in a civil post. Perhaps not the most literate post, but civil. I think. —Alorael, who may have to put this under the clause that says Godwin's Law doesn't apply if the Nazis actually have a place in the discussion. Hitler was something of an inevitability in a discussion of leaders and charisma, wasn't he? Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
|
Law Bringer
Member # 2984
|
written Tuesday, May 24 2005 23:18
Profile
Homepage
Good corollary. I expect you couldn't lead a discussion on National Socialism without mentioning Hitler either... though as soon as you discuss politics and tempers flare, you get close to a genuine invokation. -------------------- The Encyclopaedia Ermariana <-- Now a Wiki! "Polaris leers down from the black vault, winking hideously like an insane watching eye which strives to convey some strange message, yet recalls nothing save that it once had a message to convey." --- HP Lovecraft. "I single Aran out due to his nasty temperament, and his superior intellect." --- SupaNik Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
|
La Canaliste
Member # 5563
|
written Tuesday, May 24 2005 23:58
Profile
Thuryl's comment is also very apt. There is a supplementary problem with charismatic leaders: if they see other charismatic people as challengers, and remove them from the organisation, when the charismatic leader has to step down there is no successor. -------------------- I am a pale shadow of the previous self. quote: Deep down, you know you should have voted for Alcritas! Posts: 387 | Registered: Tuesday, March 1 2005 08:00 |
|
Agent
Member # 2210
|
written Wednesday, May 25 2005 00:37
Profile
Drucker was referring to four leaders in specific-- Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and Mussolini-- who he considers to have been the most charismatic leaders of the 20th century. -------------------- Wasting your time and mine looking for a good laugh. Star Bright, Star Light, Oh I Wish I May, I Wish Might, Wish For One Star Tonight. Posts: 1084 | Registered: Thursday, November 7 2002 08:00 |
|
Warrior
Member # 5822
|
written Wednesday, May 25 2005 11:21
Profile
vladmere tepe (dracula) was a good none 20th century leader, in fact one of the best -------------------- who knows what darkness lurks in the hearts of men? the shadow knows ninjas are so better than pirates homerun Posts: 85 | Registered: Tuesday, May 17 2005 07:00 |
|
Law Bringer
Member # 335
|
written Wednesday, May 25 2005 11:38
Profile
Homepage
Uh, arguably. Other people would just call him a mass-murderer. Either way, I don't think he was known for his charisma. Draconian laws and unpredictable temper, yes. Likeable personality, no. —Alorael, who believes the man's name was Vlad Tepes. Or Vlad the Impaler, depending on who you ask. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
|
By Committee
Member # 4233
|
written Wednesday, May 25 2005 11:42
Profile
MLK Jr. also was quite charismatic. Other great non-20th century examples are Pericles and Alcibiades, for different reasons, and with different results. EDIT: I wonder when the next great orator will arrive? Maybe it isn't possible anymore in this world of soundbites. [ Wednesday, May 25, 2005 11:43: Message edited by: Andrew Miller ] Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |
|
Law Bringer
Member # 2984
|
written Friday, May 27 2005 06:59
Profile
Homepage
quote:To make a successful leader, you don't need an orator these days. You need someone who sounds sufficiently stupid to appeal to enough people as "one of us". I don't think I need to expand further. :P -------------------- The Encyclopaedia Ermariana <-- Now a Wiki! "Polaris leers down from the black vault, winking hideously like an insane watching eye which strives to convey some strange message, yet recalls nothing save that it once had a message to convey." --- HP Lovecraft. "I single Aran out due to his nasty temperament, and his superior intellect." --- SupaNik Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
|
By Committee
Member # 4233
|
written Friday, May 27 2005 07:08
Profile
Successful != great. "Successful" is a necessary but not sufficient qualifier for a leader to be "great." Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |
|
Warrior
Member # 5822
|
written Friday, May 27 2005 12:27
Profile
quote:hey Hey ! he was only defending his country and setting an example to strick fear in his enemys (guess what, it worked [ Friday, May 27, 2005 12:28: Message edited by: shadow, the ] -------------------- who knows what darkness lurks in the hearts of men? the shadow knows ninjas are so better than pirates homerun Posts: 85 | Registered: Tuesday, May 17 2005 07:00 |
|
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
|
written Friday, May 27 2005 12:47
Profile
Homepage
Yeah, and Putidus really loved Lucretia. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
|
Warrior
Member # 4590
|
written Friday, May 27 2005 14:48
Profile
Hitler was definately charismatic. At least, as much so as you can get while speaking German, where everything you say sounds like you're commanding someone to kill all of the kittens in the country. Though he was really helped out by the really bad situation in the country at the time. But there have been plenty of perfectly good people who were very charismatic, too, as well as plenty of good and bad people who weren't. But we do need to be careful whith leaders who are charismatic, because we are more likley to let them do things we would not otherwise have let them do. -------------------- I often quote myself. It adds spice to my conversation. - George Bernard Shaw Posts: 103 | Registered: Sunday, June 20 2004 07:00 |