Authority of the Bible
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By Committee
Member # 4233
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written Tuesday, July 13 2004 12:37
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What do you think? In light of the discussion in Kel's thread, I thought it would be interesting to know how people here feel about the Bible and its role in their lives. I don't intend for this to be incendiary. Let me know if there are categories I missed! This poll has been moved to another forum. Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |
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Babelicious
Member # 3149
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written Tuesday, July 13 2004 13:30
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I ascribe little inspired quality to the Abrahamic Bible. More meaningful to me are the great texts Tao te Ching and Chuang-tse, in addition to the eternal Principia Discordia. -------------------- I've got a pyg in a poke. Posts: 999 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 1451
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written Tuesday, July 13 2004 13:35
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The Bible was written by people. I don't care what a 2000+ year old text wants me to believe or do. These people had no idea of the modern world so it's best to ignore them. :P EDIT: Typo. [ Tuesday, July 13, 2004 13:36: Message edited by: Abu Dhabi ] -------------------- I am pleased to make contact with your entities. Posts: 123 | Registered: Sunday, July 7 2002 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Tuesday, July 13 2004 14:24
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If by Bible you mean Christian Bible, how can the Torah be under a different category? The Torah is in the Bible too. Okay, that's enough nitpicking. I'm another in the camp of heathens. I believe there are valuable messages in many different scriptures. However, the fact that they've passed through human hands, human pens, and human minds over hundreds and thousands of years renders them completely suspect. Even if God did write the originals, what we have now is derivative, edited, censored, and repackaged. —Alorael, who takes his moral judgements from himself and necessarily from his environment and upbringing. One can use the Bible to justify many good things, but one can also use it to justify atrocities. For that reason, if no other, it should be carefully considered piece by piece, not swallowed whole as the Word of God. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 4631
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written Tuesday, July 13 2004 15:19
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Count off another heathen on your little piggies. Even if I did believe in God, Allah, Shiva, or Justin Timberlake, there are so many different accounts and variations on the words for me to take any of it as gospel truth. I'd probably be a lot more receptive to religion in general if the one I've been exposed to most (Christianity) wasn't so relentless in its exclusion of other faiths. -------------------- "'I saw the duckling hatch and disappear. Sadly I ask who may have taken it.'" Posts: 67 | Registered: Monday, June 28 2004 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Wednesday, July 14 2004 00:22
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All religious works were written by humans, but there may be more to that. I think that after thousands of years of passing through human hands, minds, languages and cultures, the Bible and other holy works have become special texts. They carry thoughts and ideas that seemed good to people at the time when they were writing, translating and interpreting it. These ideas have been subject to scrutiny, retranslation and reinterpretation. Some good things have stayed, some parts have degenerated, others have been improved, and many bad parts of the original have remained. It is unlike other historical documents (such as cave paintings from the Stone Age, or speeches by Cicero, etc.), in that it is not 'permanent', unchanging. It has followed humanity more than any other documents in being constantly adapted to the languages and minds of the present. We might see it as the only piece of literature undergoing a form of Evolution (and wouldn't that be ironic?). Of course, in biological Evolution, transition and adaption is not instantaneous, nor perfect. Things take a long time to adapt, and many 'rudimentary' parts remain the same (for reasons unknown). Keep in mind that in the last 50 years we have developed more than in the last 500, in the last 200 years more than in the entire two thousand that have passed since the Bible is believed to have been written. How should a written text adapt as quickly as our minds, and our spoken culture does? Paper lasts longer than humans... It is important not to forget what people then felt was right and just, but we must not let it rule our lives. We cannot forget our roots (or we would be living from hand to mouth, without civilization), but we must not attempt to live in the past. The Bible contains some good ideas, but not even half of it should be taken seriously at all, and less than a tenth, if anything at all, should be taken literally. The world has moved on, and trying to stop or reverse cultural progress is like trying to stop a train by standing in front of it. And just as sensible. :) [ Wednesday, July 14, 2004 00:29: Message edited by: Arancaytar ] -------------------- The Encyclopaedia Ermariana <-- Now a Wiki! "Polaris leers down from the black vault, winking hideously like an insane watching eye which strives to convey some strange message, yet recalls nothing save that it once had a message to convey." --- HP Lovecraft. "I single Aran out due to his nasty temperament, and his superior intellect." --- SupaNik Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 618
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written Wednesday, July 14 2004 02:01
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Yes, you did miss out one: amusing piece of fiction. Aran, you raise some good points. Sure the Bible, when it was written (more likely to have been written just over a millenia and a half ago) was meant to "help" you live a better life, but that was then, this is now. -------------------- Aut Tace Aut Loquere Meliora Silencio Posts: 1487 | Registered: Sunday, February 10 2002 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Wednesday, July 14 2004 04:20
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Ahem. I said in my post that *in spite* of being written that long ago, part of it has *developed* through retranslation. The development is slow and imperfect, but it gives a good cross view through what people thought *throughout* the last thousand years, not just thousand years *ago*. My argument is, as you stated, exactly that because of its slow development, we cannot use any of it in any literal sense, but a few of the ideas contained in it may - once interpreted and applied to modern times - transform to make a marginal amount of sense. You cannot treat it as a homogenous work, because it never was one. Parts of it are dated 2000 years ago, some more, some less than 500 years. You wouldn't say that because it is wrong in not tolerating other religions beside it, or having weird ideas on parental authority, it is also wrong in forbidding murder, would you? :P -------------------- The Encyclopaedia Ermariana <-- Now a Wiki! "Polaris leers down from the black vault, winking hideously like an insane watching eye which strives to convey some strange message, yet recalls nothing save that it once had a message to convey." --- HP Lovecraft. "I single Aran out due to his nasty temperament, and his superior intellect." --- SupaNik Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 4248
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written Wednesday, July 14 2004 07:01
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Bible was written AFTER things described in it happened. Texts in it are not accurate, heck, they weren't even written by the aposthols! Besides, churches have taken off some parts that didn't fit with the main view, and kept some that gave them more power over normal people. And there were twelwe aposthols, remember? I believe firmly, that this kind of development touches other religions too. All religious texts are written by humans, and more importantly, by humans who wish to use those texts to gain and hold power over others. -------------------- Somebody PLEASE turn the heat on. Posts: 617 | Registered: Tuesday, April 13 2004 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 1768
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written Wednesday, July 14 2004 07:19
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AFTER: The hell with that, a good chunk of it is prophecy, take another look. ARE NOT: Bull, it's quite a good history source, and probably the only one we have regarding MidEast history. Just look at the Hittite thingy. "APOSTHOLS": Can you prove that? We take works by Plato, Aristotle, and whoever else, and say that without a doubt, this was by Plato, even when there's only like four original copies, from that time period. Most biblical scriptures have far more copies, yet are still debated as "who wrote this when." And as for accuracy, take the test of putting two manuscripts side by side, from 1000 years apart, (same passage in the bible) and compare them. They were found to be like 99-95 percent accurate. What I'm trying to say is, the monks and such who devoted their lives to copying the bible didn't cut corners, they did it as perfect as their human hands could. -------------------- "Oh, North Wind, why frighten others? In Nature's family all are brothers. Puff and blow and wheeze and hiss; You can't frighten Shingebiss. Bring your frost and ice and snow; I'm still free to come and go. You can never frighten me, One who never fears is FREE!" -Shingebiss, the mighty duck Posts: 830 | Registered: Tuesday, August 20 2002 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 4248
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written Wednesday, July 14 2004 07:51
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Note: I was talkin about the new testament not the old one. Actually, christian bible doesn't even need the old testament, it's just there as a reminder of the past. Most of the prophetizing belongs to the old testament. And, perhaps monks devoted their lives to keep the bible intact, but they too have superiors, and I'm not talking about God here. By the way, I also believe that hell doesn't belng to the bible either, as christianity is about unending mercy and love. All of our sins have been forgiven, remember? -------------------- Somebody PLEASE turn the heat on. Posts: 617 | Registered: Tuesday, April 13 2004 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Wednesday, July 14 2004 08:39
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Please, cease this shouting. I know that on the web, shouting is represented by caps, but I can feel the flames all throughout your post, from the bold lettering to the bad grammar. I fear that any potential sense this discussion may have had shall soon be lost, if it has not already. For the record: We were having a discussion on whether or not parts of the bible may still be of use today, not whether or not the spiritual background holds any water (which it doesn't, not even a drop, imho). From the enraged mood in your post, you were obviously trying to argue against such a claim, so I just felt I had to point out that no such claim has been made. ;) -------------------- The Encyclopaedia Ermariana <-- Now a Wiki! "Polaris leers down from the black vault, winking hideously like an insane watching eye which strives to convey some strange message, yet recalls nothing save that it once had a message to convey." --- HP Lovecraft. "I single Aran out due to his nasty temperament, and his superior intellect." --- SupaNik Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Wednesday, July 14 2004 09:49
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I think that wisdom and good ways to live one's life can be found in the Bible. I think they can also be found in the works of Shakespeare or countless others. They're both equally as divinely inspired -- but then, I have a different definition of divinity than most people. Er, a goodly number of manuscripts have questionable authorship (Beowulf, the Iliad, even Shakespeare's plays to some extent, etc). It's just that in the case of most of them, it doesn't really matter. They're literary, and it's a question of credit. It kind of matters who wrote parts of the Bible, especially if we take them to be historical documents, because it becomes a question of credibility. And DP: while the Bible may have been preserved pretty decently between 300 and now, the question of what happened to it between its writing and 300 is still open. Textual criticism of the Bible has been generously described as being in a state of "flux." -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
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written Wednesday, July 14 2004 11:35
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The problem is that, in the time around 300, it wasn't exactly safe to ask questions or to criticize. Also, the skill of writing wasn't very widely spread. That's why we don't know much about it. It's like waking up - with memory loss - from a long, long sleep and finding, beside your bed-side table, a book that you can barely decipher, a lot of which doesn't make sense. You don't know how the book got there or who wrote it. You suppose somebody wrote it while you were asleep, or before, but you can't remember anything. Are you prepared to read through it, take every single word you read at face value, and trust an author (or hordes of authors, editors, lectors and translators) that you have never seen, to know what is right for you? Only if you're pretty gullible. Are you going to refuse to touch it, or consider the possibility that in all that, there must be at least some stuff written by someone who knew what they were doing? Only if you're extremely close-minded. There's a middle way, you know. ;) -------------------- The Encyclopaedia Ermariana <-- Now a Wiki! "Polaris leers down from the black vault, winking hideously like an insane watching eye which strives to convey some strange message, yet recalls nothing save that it once had a message to convey." --- HP Lovecraft. "I single Aran out due to his nasty temperament, and his superior intellect." --- SupaNik Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 1768
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written Wednesday, July 14 2004 11:39
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Quite true. I would guess that the old testement/older stuff was kept sacred and memorized and such (much like the bible is today) and written down w/a million copies (Torah). The new testement actually has copies (don't want to research now) from around before 300, but it doesn't matter. In any case, I find that the bible (esp. Proverbs, Ecclezeastees, and Song of Songs) has quite useful advice for pretty much everyone, as well as some amazing love poetry. And yes, it really is all about love and sex between a man and his wife. :P -------------------- "Oh, North Wind, why frighten others? In Nature's family all are brothers. Puff and blow and wheeze and hiss; You can't frighten Shingebiss. Bring your frost and ice and snow; I'm still free to come and go. You can never frighten me, One who never fears is FREE!" -Shingebiss, the mighty duck Posts: 830 | Registered: Tuesday, August 20 2002 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2210
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written Wednesday, July 14 2004 11:57
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The bible is an allegorical story. It creates a set of stories based on how we should act. Whether it is "true" in the sense of hard facts makes very little difference. It is a very long complex morality tale designed with pieces to analyze on how to best act and behave in different human situations. There is a lot to think on in the stories which it tells that can reflect on how to handle life. People have not changed in the biological sense since it was written. Many pieces of it still hold true. Because it is largely allegorical and can be interpreted in different ways, when people become rigid about what they think its message is they start acting a little bit crazy. I think of the bible as an article of faith not pure reason. However, science and rationality are not divorced from biblical thought at all. Newton and Einstein both were fervent believers and drew quite a bit of their "inspiration" from biblical thought. Theism led to the ideas of deism or a clockwork universe-- a rationally ordered universe with a set of laws governed by a supreme being. Scientists who are religious can argue that is statistically impossible to have a set of rational rules-- physics underlying everything without the presence of a supreme order or being. -------------------- Wasting your time and mine looking for a good laugh. Star Bright, Star Light, Oh I Wish I May, I Wish Might, Wish For One Star Tonight. Posts: 1084 | Registered: Thursday, November 7 2002 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 1768
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written Wednesday, July 14 2004 16:40
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It's more than just "a story." It chronicles much of what happened in the MidEast before Mohommed came along. Countless archeological digs have backed up what it says. All the -ites really did exist, Isreal really did take the land away from the natives, there was a civil war, it was conquered by Babylon, Persia, and then Alexander t G. Many parts of the old testement are written as a record (hint: CHRONICLES, not stories) and the writers sure thought that's what happened. -------------------- "Oh, North Wind, why frighten others? In Nature's family all are brothers. Puff and blow and wheeze and hiss; You can't frighten Shingebiss. Bring your frost and ice and snow; I'm still free to come and go. You can never frighten me, One who never fears is FREE!" -Shingebiss, the mighty duck Posts: 830 | Registered: Tuesday, August 20 2002 07:00 |
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Bob's Big Date
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written Wednesday, July 14 2004 21:55
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The Old Testament is one example of many of a sort of history that existed before the idea of formalized history. Others include the Greek and Chinese heroic myths. The idea was to tell an interesting story as well as preserving the past, and push some kind of moral. American history written the same way would involve God smiting Robert Lee and Thomas Jackson for slavery, and Roosevelt, Stalin, and Churchill tag-teaming Hitler, mind, so it's good to view the Good Book with a bit of historical skepticism. -------------------- The biggest, the baddest, and the fattest. Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 4248
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written Thursday, July 15 2004 06:43
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Okay, I won't "shout" in this topic again. All what only conserns Israelian history is useless, if you ask me. Allegories are still usable, but some of them need quite a lot of pondering before they open to a modern human. With "modern human" I mean my classmates, who propably have average IQ of WAY below 100. [ Thursday, July 15, 2004 07:34: Message edited by: Frozen feet ] -------------------- Somebody PLEASE turn the heat on. Posts: 617 | Registered: Tuesday, April 13 2004 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 1768
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written Thursday, July 15 2004 07:07
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Many of those "stories" are proved to have been true through archeology, but that doesn't matter much. Beyond the history books, stuff like Proverbs and the books around there are still relevent today, and we still see consequences that it warns of. Even if it is just too general to not be true. And the Socialism of the early church can't hurt anything either :D . -------------------- "Oh, North Wind, why frighten others? In Nature's family all are brothers. Puff and blow and wheeze and hiss; You can't frighten Shingebiss. Bring your frost and ice and snow; I'm still free to come and go. You can never frighten me, One who never fears is FREE!" -Shingebiss, the mighty duck Posts: 830 | Registered: Tuesday, August 20 2002 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2210
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written Saturday, July 17 2004 04:18
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History is a story written by the winners or the most prominent. Rarely is it ever true in any sense of the word. History is not factual at most we can hypothesize exactly what happened in some cases we can be close to theoretically certain what happened. You cannot call history hard cold facts. The opinions we accept about history are generally what we think is morally correct. The Bible may serve as a historical document for some people, but for most people it is a more of a moral or allegorical document. :P -------------------- Wasting your time and mine looking for a good laugh. Star Bright, Star Light, Oh I Wish I May, I Wish Might, Wish For One Star Tonight. Posts: 1084 | Registered: Thursday, November 7 2002 08:00 |