Israel, Palestine, and the US Hand in it All
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Shock Trooper
Member # 1723
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written Thursday, February 12 2004 15:47
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I'm trying to research the conflict and write a speech in which I take a stance on whether the US should cease all aid to Israel, or continue on our current course. Unfortunately, any material I've gotten my hands on is extremely biased in one direction, doesn't acknowledge the arguments made by the other side, and I can't really get a feel for who is closer to the truth. Since I'm doubtless there are members here with opinions at the ready, I'd like to hear them. Thanx for your help.  -------------------- "... and approximately one sea turtle." Posts: 277 | Registered: Tuesday, August 13 2002 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 3862
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written Thursday, February 12 2004 16:06
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Although I would definitely want our soldiers to just leave that would just make way for a very large civil war which could result in a very large amount of deaths so the right thing to do would be to stay there(but we shouldn't have gone there in the first place *hits President Bush on the head*) Anywho thats my opinion. -------------------- Legends tell that Avernum, Is a gateway to the underworld, from which the dead never return, Well thats a lie because im here now aren't I. -------------------------------- "Never get into a fight with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." Posts: 312 | Registered: Tuesday, January 6 2004 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 3441
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written Thursday, February 12 2004 17:19
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Errm, Chaos Fox, we didn't send too many soldiers there. I think you got your war-ridden middle-eatern countries mixed up. -------------------- -WildKarrdeSmuggler ----------------------------------- Visit the Smuggler's Alliance Posts: 536 | Registered: Sunday, September 7 2003 07:00 |
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Fire! Fire! Fire! Fire!
Member # 919
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written Thursday, February 12 2004 17:21
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 "Anywho"? How could you? Actually, that's not what I'm rolling my eyes about. Do you honestly think that Bush is responsible for American involvement in Israel? And that Bush, or even America, is responsible for the Israel-Palestine conflict? I support Israel in this conflict, although they are really not making the situation any better for themselves. The terrorists and anti-Israel Palestinians are in the wrong, but Israel is over-reacting and probably just making the whole thing worse. EDIT: Wrong word. [ Thursday, February 12, 2004 17:23: Message edited by: Sir David ] -------------------- And though the musicians would die, the music would live on in the imaginations of all who heard it. -The Last Pendragon TEH CONSPIRACY IZ ALL Les forum de la chance. Incaseofemergency,breakglass. Posts: 3351 | Registered: Saturday, April 6 2002 08:00 |
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Triad Mage
Member # 7
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written Friday, February 13 2004 01:36
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http://www.state.gov/www/background_notes/israel_1298_bgn.html for some unbiased background information. I am a staunch supporter of Israel's existence. However, that does not mean that I support all of Israel's actions. One thing that having the US in there does accomplish is it forces restraint on both sides of the issue. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Vahnatai Did Do It desperance.net - We're Everywhere The Arena - God Will Sort The Dead ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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Bob's Big Date
Member # 3151
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written Friday, February 13 2004 07:04
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Not necessarily. The US has gone a long way towards legitimizing the PLO, which is one of the biggest obstacles toward a shared or peacefully divided state in Palestine. To be honest, I've always somewhat questioned the motives of the zionist movement (giving one people their promised land over another because they're white, in essence), and haven't seen the necessity of heavy US support for the jingoists in power. If the US demanded that Israel demarcate and recognize a sovereign Palestinian state and, in so doing, refuse to recognize the PLO as a middleman, there'd be quite a bit of peace in Israel. -------------------- In a word, gay. --Bob the Impaler Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 1723
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written Saturday, February 14 2004 14:47
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Excuse my ignorance, but what is the PLO, and why is it an obstacle to peace in the middle east? -------------------- "... and approximately one sea turtle." Posts: 277 | Registered: Tuesday, August 13 2002 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 2300
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written Saturday, February 14 2004 15:10
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If I was to take sides on this issue it would undoubtedly be with the Palestinians. Why? Simple. They lived there in relative peace for many long years, and yet those who.....backed.......the formation of the Israeli state ( I won't point any fingers in particular but I would imagine many of you can guess who I personally am referring to) try to convince the world, and themselves, that their actions were just by reminding us that the inhabitants were predominantly Jewish a few thousand years ago. Yes, perhaps they were driven out by the Palestinians in their time but to base such actions on history two millenia old seems, to be plain, immature. That is my opinion. I'm not being argumentative, I'm just making a statement. -------------------- Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." - Soviet infantry manual, 1930's Posts: 267 | Registered: Wednesday, November 27 2002 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 1993
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written Saturday, February 14 2004 16:30
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these links point at the palestinian opinion -------------------- site of the month: Do not trample down the earth on which you walk. Calculate your personal footprint. Posts: 1420 | Registered: Wednesday, October 2 2002 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 3441
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written Saturday, February 14 2004 17:43
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quote:I disagree. They were not given the land because they are white, they were given a homeland in reparation for the horrors carried out against them in the holocaust. -------------------- -WildKarrdeSmuggler ----------------------------------- Visit the Smuggler's Alliance Posts: 536 | Registered: Sunday, September 7 2003 07:00 |
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Bob's Big Date
Member # 3151
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written Saturday, February 14 2004 19:24
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quote:I disagree. They were not given the land because they are white, they were given a homeland in reparation for the horrors carried out against them in the holocaust.[/quote]In 1949, it was more than obvious that something like the Holocaust wasn't going to happen again; genocide had been tried and hanged from the neck until dead. The zionist movement traces its roots into the late 19th century, before the majority of Jews had much more to worry about than being born in Poland. By the time the Holocaust occurred, there were already several major Jewish settlements in Palestine, for no real better reason than religion and ancient history claiming they had a right to it. The question of, 'Why Palestine?' is a perfectly valid one. The Palestinians were there for centuries, if not millenia; they had more claim to the land than a gaggle of people who were culturally, genetically, and societally European, but fervently believed that their ancient ancestors lived there once. Zionism sprung from the late romantic era, and is as stupid and dangerous an atavism as every other religious concept to come out of that era, in my opinion. You're not entitled to invade someone else's land, slaughter thousands of them, and grind them into the dirt because your religion says you are. [ Saturday, February 14, 2004 19:25: Message edited by: Full Frontal Nudity Custer ] -------------------- In a word, gay. --Bob the Impaler Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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Fire! Fire! Fire! Fire!
Member # 919
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written Saturday, February 14 2004 19:31
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What if money allows them in, and terrorists try to get them out? I wouldn't call it an invasion, really, any more than buying someone's house and then having to physically fight to keep them from coming back in is an invasion. The terrorism is making the Israelis extreme, not vice versa. -------------------- And though the musicians would die, the music would live on in the imaginations of all who heard it. -The Last Pendragon TEH CONSPIRACY IZ ALL Les forum de la chance. Incaseofemergency,breakglass. Posts: 3351 | Registered: Saturday, April 6 2002 08:00 |
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Bob's Big Date
Member # 3151
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written Saturday, February 14 2004 20:03
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A better analogy would be you living in the house your family has owned for generations, the mayor selling it to Chinese tourists for a pittance, and then calling the army on you because you refuse to move your family to a homeless shelter quickly enough. The majority of the Palestinian people had no part in Britain declaring Palestine a Zionist state, much less did they agree to and profit from it. Yes, the terrorism has made the Israeli government extremist. Claiming that the Palestinians were acting willful, that they had it coming to them, that the Israeli government is the victim here, or any other such unilateralist nonsense is not only untrue, but it's dangerous and irresponsible. [ Saturday, February 14, 2004 20:07: Message edited by: Full Frontal Nudity Custer ] -------------------- In a word, gay. --Bob the Impaler Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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Babelicious
Member # 3149
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written Sunday, February 15 2004 00:26
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The first thing we need to do is invent a time machine, go back in time, and shoot Chaim Weizmann. Barring that, the United States should immediately withdraw all support for the terrorist Israeli state and outlaw trade of arms or munitions with bellicose nations, including Israel. A treaty among major arms-trading nations, including Russia and China, should be made to internationalize the ban on importation of arms into Israel and the greater Middle East. If they want to act like animals, let them. Let the Israelis and the Palestinians build their own weapons to do it with, though. Posts: 999 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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Triad Mage
Member # 7
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written Sunday, February 15 2004 02:18
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Israel has its own weapons and its own forces. Israel has shown remarkable restraint, because in a similar situation, the PLO would not hesitate to eradicate the Israelis. The Israelis have had the capability to completely destroy all of the Palestinians in the area for decades, but they have not succumbed to the temptation. And don't forget that the US needs Israel. Israel the source of most of the CIA's intel regarding Arab nations, and Israeli intelligence officers are among the best in the world. Withdrawing US support would result in the severance of those ties, which hurts American anti-terrorist efforts. Some very interesting reading I've come across is by a U-Penn professor who initially held a pro-Palestinian position, but after examining the facts, did a 180 and now supports Israel: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/article.php3?id=2322 -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Vahnatai Did Do It desperance.net - We're Everywhere The Arena - God Will Sort The Dead ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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Senile Reptile
Member # 547
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written Sunday, February 15 2004 07:15
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(Sorry about the ugly formatting in the first article) -------------------- Thursday Feb. 5, 2004 Ahmad al-Rahim Martyrs and Individuals This past weekend was Eid al-Adha, the Muslim holiday that marks the end of the Hajj period. Al-Adha literally means "the immolation," and the holiday commemorates Abraham's near-sacrifice of Ishmael. In the Muslim tradition, it was Ishmael, not Isaac, whom God called upon Abraham to bind and sacrifice. As in the Judeo-Christian tradition, an angel stopped Abraham at the last minute, saving Ishmael's life and calling on Abraham to sacrifice a lamb instead. The lesson imparted about the sanctity of life is also applied to Muslims participating in the Hajj, who are obligated under Islamic law not to swat a fly or even pluck a leaf from a tree in the sanctuary around the Kaaba stone in Mecca. On Sunday, that obligation was violently violated as a stampede broke out by one of the pilgrimage stations, where tradition has it that the devil appeared to Abraham: 251 pilgrims, mostly Indonesians and Pakistanis, were trampled to death. This is not the first time pilgrims have been crushed in stampedes during the Hajj. In the last decade, more than 700 have been killed in crowd-control breakdowns. In 1990, 1,426 pilgrims were killed during a stampede in a tunnel. I had gone on Hajj the year before and at the time found the news devastating. But the victims were hailed as martyrs-"They're so fortunate to have died in Mecca" was the line at my mosque-and evidently little was done afterwards to prevent a repeat of the tragedy. On the same day the 251 pilgrims were crushed to death in Mecca, a few hundred miles to the northwest in Iraq, two suicide bombers walked into Eid al-Adha celebrations in Erbil, detonating themselves and killing 101 Iraqi Kurds. Kurdish leaders had brought out the community for a celebration of God's sparing Ishmael's life, only to have their holiday shattered by two terrorists intent on taking human life- the more lives, the better. Both in Mecca and Erbil, Eid al-Adha was marked by an inversion of traditional intent: to celebrate the sanctity of life. The bitter irony of this year's holiday speaks to an erosion in respect for human life in large parts of the Muslim world. When suicide bombings primarily targeted Israelis riding buses or eating in cafes, the attacks were celebrated as "resistance" and justified as holy acts. But now that an ideological disease that cheapens human life has enveloped the Muslim world, many of those who once praised suicide attacks are scrambling to stem the tide in their own societies. This week did, however, offer positive lessons about human dignity. In an exchange between the Israeli government and Hezbollah, 429 Arab prisoners, many accused of killing civilians, were released in return for one Israeli hostage and the bodies of the three dead soldiers. The exchange illustrated the respect Israelis have for the lives of their own citizens (one of the soldiers was an Arab Druze, and the hostage, Elhanan Tannenbaum, appears to have been part of a shady deal at the time of his abduction). Hezbollah's leaders no doubt see this trade as a sign of Israeli weakness-but their bargain's terms revealed the devaluation of Arab lives. The average: over a hundred living Arabs for one dead Israeli, be he Jewish or not. The thread that connects the recurring stampedes in Mecca, the suicide bombings in Iraq, and the lopsided exchanges between Israel and Hezbollah is the deficit of respect for the individual in the Arab world. This erosion has occurred in a political context, where too many governments in the region deny their citizens basic individual rights in order to maintain a tight grip on society. When societies trample over the individual, human life is debased. Eid al-Adha offers a message of redemption, that a near child-sacrifice can be transformed into an appreciation of human life. This may give us hope that Arab Muslim societies can overcome the devastating effects of political repression and misguided ideologies. But a change will only come about if we insist that calling people martyrs is just a cover for the disregard of the individual and the celebration of murder. Mr. Rahim is a professor of Near Eastern languages and civilizations at Harvard ---------------------- Feb. 10, 2004 Gaza Beduin ambivalent about withdrawal By MATTHEW GUTMAN Tugging at one of the legs of his polyester trousers, Dr. Khadar Kunan, the stout pharmacist who runs one of two clinics in the destitute Mawasi marshlands of the Gaza Strip, declares: "Just as you cannot fit two legs into this pant leg, you cannot fit two states in this land." Kunan's is not only an appeal for a bi-national state – which would end the prison-like conditions endured by the forgotten Mawasi Palestinians, wedged between the Gush Katif settlement bloc and the Mediterranean Sea. It is also a subtle plea for Israel not to evacuate the Gaza Strip's Jewish settlements. The Mawasi, descendants of Beduin tribes and Palestinian farmers living in a narrow strip of land between Palestinian- and Israeli-controlled Gaza, are deeply ambivalent about Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's pledge to evacuate the settlements. On one hand, they would welcome the freedom of movement and self rule. On the other, the 7,500 or so Mawasi residents will mourn the loss of much-needed jobs in the settlements. They also dread the possibility of vigilantism by Palestinians resentful of their work over the years for Jewish farmers. Hundreds of Mawasi residents work in the Gaza Strip settlements, and sell 30 percent of their produce to Israeli merchants. At the southern end of the roughly 400-square kilometer Gaza Strip sits the Gush Katif bloc, a slim rectangle about 12 km. long and 4 km. wide. Within the Jewish bloc of settlements is the even narrower band of Mawasi encampments, 10 km. long and about 1 km. wide. The Mawasi residents are free to move within the marshlands – but the area is so cramped that Kunan fills his rusty Audi's gas tank less than once a month. "This is a prison within a prison. I want the freedom to travel, to see things," he said from his empty clinic. "But if [the settlers] leave, where will we work?" Aside from the advanced irrigation systems planted in systematic patterns in their fields – a technique learned from the Israelis – the lives of Mawasi have changed little in the past 50 years. Children smacking beasts of burden with segments of irrigation pipe drive their carts down sandy lanes. Outhouses are as common as toilets, and there is not a dentist or a real doctor to be found. Still, beyond the poverty and the pervasive odor of waste, many Palestinians consider the Mawasi the fruit basket of the Gaza Strip, a paradise. Locals say the Mawasi could easily feed all the Palestinians if their produce could enter the West Bank. Its pristine beaches abut the most water-rich region in the Gaza Strip. Locals boast of growing the best guava in the Arab world. The reason for the Mawasi's farming success? "We learned our farming techniques from the Israelis," admits Amin, a bookish-looking farmer who gestures toward his hothouse. Peering from behind thick spectacles, Amin notes that, before Israel seized the Gaza Strip from Egypt in 1967, "we did not have refrigerators, cars, electricity under the Egyptians. But when Israel arrived we all built houses, bought cars and fridges." The Mawasi earned such previously unknown luxuries by working as construction laborers building the settlements, and in the fields. In the process they gained experience in construction, irrigation, and farming that they consequently exported to other Palestinian cities. Dozens continue to work for contractors in Gush Katif. Many locals marvel of their former relations with their Israeli colleagues and supervisors. They used to sleep in Tel Aviv, and were treated as equals, even among Israeli security personnel, they said. Now, the gates to the rest of the Gaza Strip are often closed, and the Mawasi are forced to sell off their produce for a fraction of its price. Also, the IDF-imposed security measures forbid them from harvesting fish from the Mediterranean. Sitting in his clinic near the Masawi dockyards – now a fishing boat graveyard – Kunan says simply that "things have changed." Still, he estimates that some 60% of the Masawi Beduin "like Israel." Asked if, given the choice, he would return to the pre-intifada days of 1986, Amin replies, "of course." From the white-bearded Mawasi mukhtar, Ahmed al-Majaeda, to farmers like Amin, their is broad agreement that their lives would be fine – were it not for the checkpoints. There are two checkpoints leading to Palestinian-controlled areas, at the north and south ends of the strip. They are open based on the whim of the Mawasi's Palestinian neighbors in Rafah and Khan Yunis; when violence rages, the gates close, said an Israeli security source. The source said that the IDF had expanded the two checkpoints on Monday, doubling the speed with which they can process the Mawasi. In addition, he said, there are no restrictions on the Mawasi from fishing with whatever conveyance they choose. The Shin Bet has forbidden the Mawasi from crossing a thin strip of dunes that divides the major axis road of their community from the road leading to the strip of Jewish settlements. Eran Sternberg, spokesman of Gush Katif's Hof Aza Regional Council, said Tuesday that Palestinian terrorists often attempt to infiltrate the Mawasi to use it as a base to attack local settlers. All told, however, Sternberg said the Mawasi has been very quiet these past three years. For Kunan, one of the most troubling aspects of living in Mawasi is the frequent Shin Bet recruitment. He was "invited" to visit the Shin Bet just a few days ago, he said. A close friend of his received a similar letter Monday. Continuing business relations with Israelis have earned the Mawasi the suspicion of other Palestinians. Even Mukhtar Majaeda, who sells Paz brand gasoline to the Mawasi, was cuffed by Fatah gang members who "advised" him to distance himself from Israelis, said locals. When asked Monday to describe his relations with Israel, Majaeda promptly replied, "none at all." "If Israel pulls out," says Kunan, "then we have no idea what the future holds. I assume that the government [PA] will take the land from the people. We just hope it won't be like before, where they took money and did not give it to the people." Amin dreads the day the PA will take over, saying, "They [PA officials] love the seat of power more than anything." Underscoring his point, Amin stood, faced his plastic chair, and graced it with a loud kiss, much to the mirth of his comrades lounging outside the mukhtar's house. Sitting around a little stove in the sandy lot that serves as a courtyard in front of Majaeda's house, some local men mocked the "Tunis Mafia" – a moniker given to PA Chairman Yasser Arafat's Fatah officers who arrived in Gaza in 1994, who earned notoriety for their taste for Israeli goods and partying in Tel Aviv. Unlike many of the other villages and cities in the Gaza Strip, the vengeance-invoking graffiti of Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and the Aksa Martyrs Brigades is not splashed onto concrete walls in the Mawasi. Kunan – who also happens also to be a captain in the defunct PA police force, he says – nominally belongs to Fatah. None of that matters in the end, he says, with the nodding approval of the others. Kunan's real mistress, he says, is a pay slip – wherever it comes from. He waves away a question about maltreatment by Fatah members resentful over the Mawasi's collaboration with Israel. "If they give me $300-$400 per month, they can tell me anything they want. Otherwise they can go to hell." Before he rises to leave, Kunan concludes dourly: "It does not matter, nobody thinks about us much. We are lost." -------------------- Polaris Posts: 1614 | Registered: Wednesday, January 23 2002 08:00 |
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This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 3098
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written Sunday, February 15 2004 14:01
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Nobody denies that the terrorists are behaving in an immoral manner or that Israel is more democratic than its Arab neighbours. But that doesn't mean everything they've done is alright. Sadly, the PLO, and Arafat in particular, is probably the main obstacle to peace, although to be honest I'm pessimistic about an end to troubles even if he loses all influence. The last chance for a relatively amicable settlement died with Count Bernadotte. Two states aren't likely to work either, particularly if it follows the Security fence. A bi-national state does seem like the best option, but there's still the matter of convincing the Palestinians of this and repairing the inequality between Gaza and the West Bank and Israel proper. Unfortunately, there's another problem on the horizon. Whilst Israelis have done a lot for the area, turning the Negev into farmland, this looks to be causing a water shortage (and farming doesn't contribute enough to the economy to be worthwhile maintaining at present.) There'll be trouble with Syria for water sources over this, unless something is done. -------------------- Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned I'll tell you my story, man Though I wish I'd never been born I'm loose at the seams, I've broken my dreams And my hand it shakes the pen Come on, come on now baby, Let the good times roll again Posts: 961 | Registered: Thursday, June 12 2003 07:00 |