WTF are we still in Iraq.

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AuthorTopic: WTF are we still in Iraq.
This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 3098
Profile #75
Going to war with North Korea would be a bad idea, but for different reasons than the reasons why fighting Japan, China (in its guise of North Korean volunteers) and North Vietnam.

In the first case, you had a culture of fighting to the death and an industrialised nation with well-trained soldiers and officers prepared to act decisively and a population which could be relied upon not to oppose the government too much.

In the other two cases, there were experienced guerilla armies fighting on turf they knew reasonably well. In the second case, they had large numbers and good equipment and in Vietnam they had the advantage of terrain and fighting apathetic South Vietnamese and inexperienced GIs.

The problem with attacking North Korea now is quite different. Their people are starving, don't really want Kim as leader and would overthrow him if the soldiers weren't so numerous. The problem is that they've most likely got nukes. They can't hit America with them, but they could use them tactically or alternatively reduce Tokyo to ruins. North Korea is one of those cases when fighting is not the best way to solve the problem.

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Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned
I'll tell you my story, man
Though I wish I'd never been born
I'm loose at the seams,
I've broken my dreams
And my hand it shakes the pen
Come on, come on now baby,
Let the good times roll again
Posts: 961 | Registered: Thursday, June 12 2003 07:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 1768
Profile #76
quote:
Actually there has been a civil War going on in Iraq between The Baath and the Kurds. Second most of the Mid East is under Civil war, In General The Mid East is not a Politically stable region. And SirDavid said we should declare War on N Korea. I have to differ. If US learned anything from The Korean War, The Vietnam War, and The War in the Pacific. It's one thing. Stay out of Asia. The Asians will fight you to the death. See The Asians are use to War, War is something the Asians are good at. Even though the Koreans and the Vietness are not as equiped with weapons as we are. They are destined to win or die trying, and that makes up for it. The Asians will never give in if US starts a war in Eastern Asia. They will fight to the death. The Koreans and other Eastern Asian groups are very determind when it comes to war. And I respect that about the N and S Koreans and other Eastern Asian groups. Now there has not been a War between the two Koreans in a while now. That is a good thing. And if Bush has atlest the IQ of Beevis or ButHead he will keep it that way. Allso, Isn't there enough lives being lost in Iraq. Why would anyone want more lives being lost in N Korea or Iran.

Uhg. Somebody, kill the topic, quick.

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I want my Desert Plah back, (Drakey, check your PM's.)

"Oh, North Wind, why frighten others?
In Nature's family all are brothers.
Puff and blow and wheeze and hiss;
You can't frighten Shingebiss.
Bring your frost and ice and snow;
I'm still free to come and go.
You can never frighten me,
One who never fears is FREE!"
-Shingebiss, the mighty duck
Posts: 830 | Registered: Tuesday, August 20 2002 07:00
Infiltrator
Member # 2242
Profile #77
quote:
Originally written by The Lord of Evil:

We should not be comparing The War in Iraq to WW2. We should be comparing it to Vietnam. It's obvious that this war is nothing but another Vietnam. In Vietnam US had no right being there. US just went in there for it's own selfish needs. But that's all put aside. Does anyone think Vietnam is any better now then it was then. Sure now that Vietnam opend up to tourism things have gotten better (mostly for the Rich, I doubt the poor are getting any of that money) But when US pulled out of there in the early 70's it wasn't any better than it was when we went in in the 60's. If anything it was worse than it was in the 60's. That is what this War is like. The U.S won't get anything accomplished. When The U.S Pulls out of Iraq Iraq will probably be even worse than it was when the war started. Face it ingeneral what do Wars achive. Nothing but blood and death. And what are they started for, usually religion, land or power. Wars are idiotic, they resolve nothing. But the people who make weapons for War make tons of money. I think that's why Vietnam lasted for as long as it did. Face it Vietnam was a mistake that everyone paid for dairly. And I have a feeling 20 years from now we'll be saying the same thing about the war in Iraq.
No. Iraq is nothing like Vietnam. We lost many more soldiers in Vietnam due to poor leadership and a drop in morale. Wars resolve more than you think. Think about what the people are fighting for. Some of them are foolish, but then again, diplomacy can't solve everything.

I think that our leadership right now needs to concentrate on rebuilding Iraq. The military needs to concentrate on finding the rebels hiding. I'm hoping in 20 years we can look back and look at the accomplishments of this war, not at another Vietnam.

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"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster... when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes back into you."
-Friedrich Nietzsche

"There is no dodging the quad laser." -Ugnagnok
Posts: 469 | Registered: Thursday, November 14 2002 08:00
Agent
Member # 798
Profile Homepage #78
I am not saying this is a nother Vietnam. I am saying if things do not improve This war will turn into another Vietnam. I'm not talking about pulling out of Iraq. I am only asking one question. Does anyone want another Vietnam War?

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Look Ma, I'm banned!
Posts: 1046 | Registered: Friday, March 22 2002 08:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 1768
Profile #79
quote:
It's obvious that this war is nothing but another Vietnam.
Whatever. And:
quote:
I am saying if things do not improve This war will turn into another Vietnam.
quote:
Since President Bush declared an end to major combat on May 1...

(NOTE, added to what I posted earlier.)

...you can buy satellite dishes on what seems like every street corner.
...foreign journalists (and everyone else) are free to come and go.
...the Iraqi government regularly participates in international events.
Since July the Iraqi government has been represented in over two dozen international meetings, including those of the UN General Assembly, the Arab League, the World Bank and IMF and, today, the Islamic Conference Summit.
The Ministry of Foreign Affairs announced that it is reopening over 30 Iraqi embassies around the world.
...Shia religious festivals that were all but banned, aren't.
...for the first time in 35 years, in Karbala thousands of Shiites
celebrate the pilgrimage of the 12th Imam.
...the Coalition has completed over 13,000 reconstruction projects, large and small, as part of a strategic plan for the reconstruction of Iraq.
...Uday and Queasy are dead - and no longer feeding innocent Iraqis to the zoo lions, raping the young daughters of local leaders to force cooperation, torturing Iraq's soccer players for losing games, or murdering critics.
...children aren't imprisoned or murdered when their parents disagree with
the government.
...political opponents aren't imprisoned, tortured, executed, maimed, or are forced to watch their families die for disagreeing with Saddam.
...millions of longsuffering Iraqis no longer live in perpetual terror.

... Saudis will hold municipal elections.

... Qatar is reforming education to give more choices to parents.
... Jordan is accelerating market economic reforms.
...the Nobel Peace Prize was awarded for the first time to an Iranian -- a Muslim woman who speaks out with courage for human rights, for democracy and for peace.

...Saddam is gone.
EDIT: Oh, and we didn't win Viet Nam, this one is still going.

[ Wednesday, January 28, 2004 13:21: Message edited by: Desert Plah ]

--------------------
I want my Desert Plah back, (Drakey, check your PM's.)

"Oh, North Wind, why frighten others?
In Nature's family all are brothers.
Puff and blow and wheeze and hiss;
You can't frighten Shingebiss.
Bring your frost and ice and snow;
I'm still free to come and go.
You can never frighten me,
One who never fears is FREE!"
-Shingebiss, the mighty duck
Posts: 830 | Registered: Tuesday, August 20 2002 07:00
Infiltrator
Member # 3441
Profile Homepage #80
quote:
Uhg. Somebody, kill the topic, quick.

IMAGE(WTF are we still in Iraq (4)_files/spam.html)
I attempt to kill the topic in the name of compassionate conservativism
EDIT: Wait, how do you post pictures?

[ Wednesday, January 28, 2004 15:19: Message edited by: Smugglers' Alliance, Chief of the ]

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-WildKarrdeSmuggler

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Visit the Smuggler's Alliance
Posts: 536 | Registered: Sunday, September 7 2003 07:00
Bob's Big Date
Member # 3151
Profile Homepage #81
quote:
Originally written by Desert Plah:

Since President Bush declared an end to major combat on May 1...

(NOTE, added to what I posted earlier.)

...you can buy satellite dishes on what seems like every street corner.

I find it hard to believe that the Iraqis have a QOL advantage over Americans thanks to Herr Bush's war.
...foreign journalists (and everyone else) are free to come and go.

...the way for them having been opened up by foreign colonial imperialists.
...the Iraqi government regularly participates in international events.

The US military didn't start participating in international events on May 1 2003.
Since July the Iraqi government has been represented in over two dozen international meetings, including those of the UN General Assembly, the Arab League, the World Bank and IMF and, today, the Islamic Conference Summit.

The Iraqi government is a figurehead. The US military still holds all the power in Iraq, and if they left there'd be a dictatorship in a heartbeat. Being as how all this takes is a couple of diplomats, this does not mean anything re. national stability.
The Ministry of Foreign Affairs announced that it is reopening over 30 Iraqi embassies around the world.

Again...
...Shia religious festivals that were all but banned, aren't.

And religious fanaticism, kept in check for decades by the Saddam Hussein government and generally considered one of the only positive checks for his rule, is back with a vengeance. I'd look for purdah laws by the next Presidential administration, and sharia-based capital crimes codes before that.
...for the first time in 35 years, in Karbala thousands of Shiites
celebrate the pilgrimage of the 12th Imam.

See the last point.
...the Coalition has completed over 13,000 reconstruction projects, large and small, as part of a strategic plan for the reconstruction of Iraq.

The vast majority of which are related to oil, for which Halliburton received the vast majority of reconstruction contracts, for which the numbers were so ludicrously padded as to put the era of Teapot Dome to shame.
...Uday and Queasy are dead - and no longer feeding innocent Iraqis to the zoo lions, raping the young daughters of local leaders to force cooperation, torturing Iraq's soccer players for losing games, or murdering critics.

Two murderous fanatics are gone. The price? Thousands of slightly less murderous fanatics running the country for centuries. Yeah, sounds reasonable.

...children aren't imprisoned or murdered when their parents disagree with
the government.

Where was our concern for the children when we enforced the embargo against the Iraqi people (NOT Saddam Hussein OR his military, who remained well-fed)? Then again, I suppose if you expect consistency in moral strength from the right, you're gunning for dissapointment.

...political opponents aren't imprisoned, tortured, executed, maimed, or are forced to watch their families die for disagreeing with Saddam.

'Shock And Awe' is a wonderful step up from Tacitus. We kill 500,000 people and call it humanitarian.

...millions of longsuffering Iraqis no longer live in perpetual terror.

The decades-long suffering of millions of longsuffering Zaïrans? Still going strong!

... Saudis will hold municipal elections.

Muncipal elections are the most risibly falsely 'democratic' process ever. By and large, they have little more democratic rooting or effect than elections for high-school student body president.


... Qatar is reforming education to give more choices to parents.

This is so ambiguous that I don't even want to bother tackling it, but I will anyway: Choices between what and what? And choices to which parents? The Bush Administration's voucher system offered more choices to some parents, after all.

... Jordan is accelerating market economic reforms.

Oh boy, a hereditary monarchy has moved from traditional economics to baroque capitalism. Let's all break out our American flags and cheer for MORE opportunities to go from 'poor' to 'starving' and 'rich' to 'ludicrously rich'!

...the Nobel Peace Prize was awarded for the first time to an Iranian -- a Muslim woman who speaks out with courage for human rights, for democracy and for peace.

Are you implying this is Bush's doing?

...Saddam is gone.

Why do people deal with the person before the issue? I'd prefer Saddam remain in power if he could be voted out of office, or even had the oversight of a strong parliamentary body. The Bush administration seems to be happy setting up a brief spat of anarchy followed by a dictator with a different name and face but similar policies; and someone who's likely to be an Islamic fundamentalist, too.



[ Wednesday, January 28, 2004 22:25: Message edited by: Shuu Shirakawa ]

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In a word, gay.
--Bob the Impaler

Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00
Infiltrator
Member # 2940
Profile Homepage #82
A Funny Internet cookie check it out.

Go to Google, type "Weapons of Mass Destruction" and then clic on "I'm Feeling Lucky".

You will get a curious Error message.

IMAGE(WTF are we still in Iraq (4)_files/biggrin.gif)

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"I don't want to achieve immortality through my work, I want to achieve it through not dying."
Posts: 469 | Registered: Thursday, May 1 2003 07:00
This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 3098
Profile #83
That's fine, but since everybody else on the internet has probably seen that page three times, it may not add much to the conversation.

And you will find that many Iraqis are still imprisoned on pseudo-political grounds. I say pseudo-political because it's unclear what most of them have been arrested for, the military having been as helpful as ever. But it would appear that a sizeable proportion are guilty of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

--------------------
Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned
I'll tell you my story, man
Though I wish I'd never been born
I'm loose at the seams,
I've broken my dreams
And my hand it shakes the pen
Come on, come on now baby,
Let the good times roll again
Posts: 961 | Registered: Thursday, June 12 2003 07:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 1768
Profile #84
1. Alec, you're such a pessimist, and you always assume you're right. Many of these can be viewed as good or bad things, depending on how you feel about the world. I feel sorry for you in your case.

2. I don't claim that this is all a result of Bushie.

3. You always assume you're right.

4. When I see reports of tens of thousands of people dying of starvation in Iraq, I might accept a few of these.

5. You always assume that you're right.

6. We'll have to wait 50-60 years to find out if your predictions will come true.

And thank you for allowing me to borrow your trademark numbering and repeated points.

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I want my Desert Plah back, (Drakey, check your PM's.)

"Oh, North Wind, why frighten others?
In Nature's family all are brothers.
Puff and blow and wheeze and hiss;
You can't frighten Shingebiss.
Bring your frost and ice and snow;
I'm still free to come and go.
You can never frighten me,
One who never fears is FREE!"
-Shingebiss, the mighty duck
Posts: 830 | Registered: Tuesday, August 20 2002 07:00
Bob's Big Date
Member # 3151
Profile Homepage #85
quote:
Originally written by Desert Plah:

1. Alec, you're such a pessimist, and you always assume you're right. Many of these can be viewed as good or bad things, depending on how you feel about the world. I feel sorry for you in your case.
I tend to view people suffering as bad, yes, even if it's 'justified' by other people living higher off the hog than they were already. Apparently we're at odds there; I personally believe allowing anyone to have seconds, thirds, and fourths while other people's plates go empty is wrong -- on the other hand, some people would call the fact that anyone's having fourths 'success', no matter how little they need it.

2. I don't claim that this is all a result of Bushie.

The post strongly implies it. Anyone who says, 'Everything's coming up roses!' without a political motivation is a goddamn fool, because there's always about a great gross pounds dark cloud to one pound silver lining. Study history sometime, and realize that things haven't changed all that much. The world is an ugly, ugly place, and closing your eyes and shouting "LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU" only makes matters worse.

3. You always assume you're right.

Am I to assume I'm wrong? IMAGE(WTF are we still in Iraq (4)_files/tongue.gif)

4. When I see reports of tens of thousands of people dying of starvation in Iraq, I might accept a few of these.

Oh, I retract it, then. The embargo, which included food and medicine, obviously had no negative effect on the Iraqi people.
I'd dig up an article on the predicted casualties of Shock and Awe if you'd like, or perhaps a few dozen on the impact of the wrongheaded embargo on the people (not the dictator) of Iraq; I'd prefer not to, if it's all the same to you.

5. You always assume that you're right.

It'd be nice if you'd respond to these point-by-point. Either you especially felt like repeating yourself or you had the same (albeit useless) response to two separate points...

6. We'll have to wait 50-60 years to find out if your predictions will come true.

The study of history tells you that looking for problems in hindsight is as useless as looking for solutions in foresight. All the signs of a budding theocratic one-party state friendly to the West and viciously oppressive to its own people are there, and the next thing I'd heard about Bush answering any of them'd be the first.

And thank you for allowing me to borrow your trademark numbering and repeated points.

I don't use this format; I find it abhorrent IMAGE(WTF are we still in Iraq (4)_files/tongue.gif)



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In a word, gay.
--Bob the Impaler

Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 1768
Profile #86
Gersh-dang! Alec, what the heck is it you do for a living? Can't you just let me have the last word for once? IMAGE(WTF are we still in Iraq (4)_files/tongue.gif)

--------------------
I want my Desert Plah back, (Drakey, check your PM's.)

"Oh, North Wind, why frighten others?
In Nature's family all are brothers.
Puff and blow and wheeze and hiss;
You can't frighten Shingebiss.
Bring your frost and ice and snow;
I'm still free to come and go.
You can never frighten me,
One who never fears is FREE!"
-Shingebiss, the mighty duck
Posts: 830 | Registered: Tuesday, August 20 2002 07:00
Bob's Big Date
Member # 3151
Profile Homepage #87
I CONSUME THE DREAMS OF CHILDREN AND THE UNWORLDLY IN THE FORM OF A DELICIOUS POWDER

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In a word, gay.
--Bob the Impaler

Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00
Agent
Member # 798
Profile Homepage #88
I know US souldn't pull out. US can't pull out actually. But if you think about it, niether the Iraqies or the Americans are benefiting from our present campaign. US must change there campaign significantly.

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Look Ma, I'm banned!
Posts: 1046 | Registered: Friday, March 22 2002 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 2242
Profile #89
Mabey for once our leaders will actually finish something fully, rather than getting halfway through and saying that the operation was a complete success. Sir David, are you one of those peace protesters who think that peaceful processes work for everything? You definately sound like one. If they spent half as much time looking for a solution rather than whining about the war mabey we'd have a better solution.

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"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster... when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes back into you."
-Friedrich Nietzsche

"There is no dodging the quad laser." -Ugnagnok
Posts: 469 | Registered: Thursday, November 14 2002 08:00
Agent
Member # 798
Profile Homepage #90
The Silent, Listen my friend. SirDavid is not a peace protestor. If you remember clearly my friend SirDavid was for going to war with Iraq. If anything I am the Peace protestor if you have been reading my posts carefully. In that matter you have something against me not SirDavid. So If you have something to say to me say it to me and not someone else my friend.

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Look Ma, I'm banned!
Posts: 1046 | Registered: Friday, March 22 2002 08:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 1768
Profile #91
Was there a point to this topic, according to the original post? Or has it been hijacked?

Oh, wait, there is a question there.

Answer: Because it's too late to pull out, and if we pull out now, or in the near future, Iraq won't get pregnant with the seeds of Americanization, which is actually slightly better than their former state.

Actually, Alec:
quote:
the Coalition has helped administer over 22 million vaccinations to
Iraq's children.

a Coalition program has cleared over 14,000 kilometers of Iraq's 27,000 kilometers of weed-choked canals which now irrigate tens of thousands of farms. This project has created jobs for more than 100,000 Iraqi men and women.
says nix to your starvation and disease, hopefully.

--------------------
I want my Desert Plah back, (Drakey, check your PM's.)

"Oh, North Wind, why frighten others?
In Nature's family all are brothers.
Puff and blow and wheeze and hiss;
You can't frighten Shingebiss.
Bring your frost and ice and snow;
I'm still free to come and go.
You can never frighten me,
One who never fears is FREE!"
-Shingebiss, the mighty duck
Posts: 830 | Registered: Tuesday, August 20 2002 07:00
Agent
Member # 798
Profile Homepage #92
I heard on the news that The Alqueda is now involved with the crises in Iraq.

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Look Ma, I'm banned!
Posts: 1046 | Registered: Friday, March 22 2002 08:00
This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 3098
Profile #93
That's been theorised for ages, but there's minor matter of the massive lack of evidence.

Al-Qaeda isn't a conventional state - it doesn't have the power to singlehandedly destabilise Iraq.

Many Muslim extremist groups are not Al-Qaeda. But Muslim extremists are grouped under that general banner.

My general understanding of Al-Qaeda is that since its powerbase in Afghanistan was shattered, it hasn't been able to field that many fighters. Rather, its strength is in foreign sleeper cells who will take years to organise a bombing if they do anything at all and who are unlikely to have the capability to keep a campaign of terror going beyond the first bombing.

--------------------
Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned
I'll tell you my story, man
Though I wish I'd never been born
I'm loose at the seams,
I've broken my dreams
And my hand it shakes the pen
Come on, come on now baby,
Let the good times roll again
Posts: 961 | Registered: Thursday, June 12 2003 07:00
Agent
Member # 798
Profile Homepage #94
No The Alqueda is not a state. And not all the Muslium Terrorist groups in the MidEast is under the Alqueda umbrella. But before 9/11 and the War on Terrorism the Alqueda was one of the largest Terrorist-Criminal organization in the world. Binladden is envolved with much more than terrorism. Along with terrorism he is envolved with extortion and Drug trafficing. And probably much more. All though I doubt Binladden was connected with Saddame. Actually from my sources Binladden and Saddame where bitter enemies. But Binladden is no longer the King Pin of the Alqueda. Some one else has taken his place and Osama is now a mere Figure Head of the organization he built through terrorizing people. But somehow The Alqueda is connected with the radical Muslium groups killing US and UK troops in Iraq.

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Look Ma, I'm banned!
Posts: 1046 | Registered: Friday, March 22 2002 08:00
Apprentice
Member # 3957
Profile Homepage #95
lord of evil i see your point about us being there but why not bother rebuild thing that were destroyed like houses and schools. how would you feel if some one came to your house ripped you out of it took you away and then destroyed it . huh tell me. i bet you would hate them or atleast wish they had not done it. that is why we are there rebuilding what we destroyed.

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life sucks then you die
Posts: 5 | Registered: Friday, February 6 2004 08:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 1768
Profile #96
Exactly, as I've stated earlier, thousands of schools are open, as well as secondary schools, clinics, and hospitals.

Thousands of kilometers of irrigation canals are now bringing water to farms everywhere, helping to feed Iraqi people.

I'd sacrifice myself to a roadside bomb in order to feed someone else, really.

I think that answers the question.

[ Friday, February 06, 2004 15:40: Message edited by: Desert Plah ]

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I want my Desert Plah back, (Drakey, check your PM's.)

"Oh, North Wind, why frighten others?
In Nature's family all are brothers.
Puff and blow and wheeze and hiss;
You can't frighten Shingebiss.
Bring your frost and ice and snow;
I'm still free to come and go.
You can never frighten me,
One who never fears is FREE!"
-Shingebiss, the mighty duck
Posts: 830 | Registered: Tuesday, August 20 2002 07:00

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