quote:

---

Originally written by The Lord of Evil:

We should not be comparing The War in Iraq to WW2. We should be comparing it to Vietnam. It's obvious that this war is nothing but another Vietnam. In Vietnam US had no right being there. US just went in there for it's own selfish needs. But that's all put aside. Does anyone think Vietnam is any better now then it was then. Sure now that Vietnam opend up to tourism things have gotten better (mostly for the Rich, I doubt the poor are getting any of that money) But when US pulled out of there in the early 70's it wasn't any better than it was when we went in in the 60's. If anything it was worse than it was in the 60's. That is what this War is like. The U.S won't get anything accomplished. When The U.S Pulls out of Iraq Iraq will probably be even worse than it was when the war started. Face it ingeneral what do Wars achive. Nothing but blood and death. And what are they started for, usually religion, land or power. Wars are idiotic, they resolve nothing. But the people who make weapons for War make tons of money. I think that's why Vietnam lasted for as long as it did. Face it Vietnam was a mistake that everyone paid for dairly. And I have a feeling 20 years from now we'll be saying the same thing about the war in Iraq.

---

quote:

---

It's obvious that this war is nothing but another Vietnam.

---

quote:

---

I am saying if things do not improve This war will turn into another Vietnam.

---

quote:

---

Since President Bush declared an end to major combat on May 1...

(NOTE, added to what I posted earlier.)

...you can buy satellite dishes on what seems like every street corner.
...foreign journalists (and everyone else) are free to come and go.
...the Iraqi government regularly participates in international events.
Since July the Iraqi government has been represented in over two dozen international meetings, including those of the UN General Assembly, the Arab League, the World Bank and IMF and, today, the Islamic Conference Summit.
The Ministry of Foreign Affairs announced that it is reopening over 30 Iraqi embassies around the world.
...Shia religious festivals that were all but banned, aren't.
...for the first time in 35 years, in Karbala thousands of Shiites
celebrate the pilgrimage of the 12th Imam.
...the Coalition has completed over 13,000 reconstruction projects, large and small, as part of a strategic plan for the reconstruction of Iraq.
...Uday and Queasy are dead - and no longer feeding innocent Iraqis to the zoo lions, raping the young daughters of local leaders to force cooperation, torturing Iraq's soccer players for losing games, or murdering critics.
...children aren't imprisoned or murdered when their parents disagree with
the government.
...political opponents aren't imprisoned, tortured, executed, maimed, or are forced to watch their families die for disagreeing with Saddam.
...millions of longsuffering Iraqis no longer live in perpetual terror.

... Saudis will hold municipal elections.

... Qatar is reforming education to give more choices to parents.
... Jordan is accelerating market economic reforms.
...the Nobel Peace Prize was awarded for the first time to an Iranian -- a Muslim woman who speaks out with courage for human rights, for democracy and for peace.

...Saddam is gone.

---

quote:

---

Originally written by Desert Plah:

Since President Bush declared an end to major combat on May 1...

(NOTE, added to what I posted earlier.)

...you can buy satellite dishes on what seems like every street corner.
I find it hard to believe that the Iraqis have a QOL advantage over Americans thanks to Herr Bush's war.
...foreign journalists (and everyone else) are free to come and go.
...the way for them having been opened up by foreign colonial imperialists.
...the Iraqi government regularly participates in international events.
The US military didn't start participating in international events on May 1 2003.
Since July the Iraqi government has been represented in over two dozen international meetings, including those of the UN General Assembly, the Arab League, the World Bank and IMF and, today, the Islamic Conference Summit.
The Iraqi government is a figurehead. The US military still holds all the power in Iraq, and if they left there'd be a dictatorship in a heartbeat. Being as how all this takes is a couple of diplomats, this does not mean anything re. national stability.
The Ministry of Foreign Affairs announced that it is reopening over 30 Iraqi embassies around the world.
Again...
...Shia religious festivals that were all but banned, aren't.
And religious fanaticism, kept in check for decades by the Saddam Hussein government and generally considered one of the only positive checks for his rule, is back with a vengeance. I'd look for purdah laws by the next Presidential administration, and sharia-based capital crimes codes before that.
...for the first time in 35 years, in Karbala thousands of Shiites
celebrate the pilgrimage of the 12th Imam.
See the last point.
...the Coalition has completed over 13,000 reconstruction projects, large and small, as part of a strategic plan for the reconstruction of Iraq.
The vast majority of which are related to oil, for which Halliburton received the vast majority of reconstruction contracts, for which the numbers were so ludicrously padded as to put the era of Teapot Dome to shame.
...Uday and Queasy are dead - and no longer feeding innocent Iraqis to the zoo lions, raping the young daughters of local leaders to force cooperation, torturing Iraq's soccer players for losing games, or murdering critics.
Two murderous fanatics are gone. The price? Thousands of slightly less murderous fanatics running the country for centuries. Yeah, sounds reasonable.

...children aren't imprisoned or murdered when their parents disagree with
the government.
Where was our concern for the children when we enforced the embargo against the Iraqi people (NOT Saddam Hussein OR his military, who remained well-fed)? Then again, I suppose if you expect consistency in moral strength from the right, you're gunning for dissapointment.

...political opponents aren't imprisoned, tortured, executed, maimed, or are forced to watch their families die for disagreeing with Saddam.
'Shock And Awe' is a wonderful step up from Tacitus. We kill 500,000 people and call it humanitarian.

...millions of longsuffering Iraqis no longer live in perpetual terror.
The decades-long suffering of millions of longsuffering Zaïrans? Still going strong!

... Saudis will hold municipal elections.
Muncipal elections are the most risibly falsely 'democratic' process ever. By and large, they have little more democratic rooting or effect than elections for high-school student body president.


... Qatar is reforming education to give more choices to parents.
This is so ambiguous that I don't even want to bother tackling it, but I will anyway: Choices between what and what? And choices to which parents? The Bush Administration's voucher system offered more choices to some parents, after all.

... Jordan is accelerating market economic reforms.
Oh boy, a hereditary monarchy has moved from traditional economics to baroque capitalism. Let's all break out our American flags and cheer for MORE opportunities to go from 'poor' to 'starving' and 'rich' to 'ludicrously rich'!

...the Nobel Peace Prize was awarded for the first time to an Iranian -- a Muslim woman who speaks out with courage for human rights, for democracy and for peace.
Are you implying this is Bush's doing?

...Saddam is gone.
Why do people deal with the person before the issue? I'd prefer Saddam remain in power if he could be voted out of office, or even had the oversight of a strong parliamentary body. The Bush administration seems to be happy setting up a brief spat of anarchy followed by a dictator with a different name and face but similar policies; and someone who's likely to be an Islamic fundamentalist, too.

---

quote:

---

Originally written by Desert Plah:

1. Alec, you're such a pessimist, and you always assume you're right. Many of these can be viewed as good or bad things, depending on how you feel about the world. I feel sorry for you in your case.
I tend to view people suffering as bad, yes, even if it's 'justified' by other people living higher off the hog than they were already. Apparently we're at odds there; I personally believe allowing anyone to have seconds, thirds, and fourths while other people's plates go empty is wrong -- on the other hand, some people would call the fact that anyone's having fourths 'success', no matter how little they need it.

2. I don't claim that this is all a result of Bushie.
The post strongly implies it. Anyone who says, 'Everything's coming up roses!' without a political motivation is a goddamn fool, because there's always about a great gross pounds dark cloud to one pound silver lining. Study history sometime, and realize that things haven't changed all that much. The world is an ugly, ugly place, and closing your eyes and shouting "LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU" only makes matters worse.

3. You always assume you're right.

Am I to assume I'm wrong?

4. When I see reports of tens of thousands of people dying of starvation in Iraq, I might accept a few of these.
Oh, I retract it, then. The embargo, which included food and medicine, obviously had no negative effect on the Iraqi people.
I'd dig up an article on the predicted casualties of Shock and Awe if you'd like, or perhaps a few dozen on the impact of the wrongheaded embargo on the people (not the dictator) of Iraq; I'd prefer not to, if it's all the same to you.

5. You always assume that you're right.

It'd be nice if you'd respond to these point-by-point. Either you especially felt like repeating yourself or you had the same (albeit useless) response to two separate points...

6. We'll have to wait 50-60 years to find out if your predictions will come true.
The study of history tells you that looking for problems in hindsight is as useless as looking for solutions in foresight. All the signs of a budding theocratic one-party state friendly to the West and viciously oppressive to its own people are there, and the next thing I'd heard about Bush answering any of them'd be the first.

And thank you for allowing me to borrow your trademark numbering and repeated points.
I don't use this format; I find it abhorrent

---

quote:

---

the Coalition has helped administer over 22 million vaccinations to
Iraq's children.

a Coalition program has cleared over 14,000 kilometers of Iraq's 27,000 kilometers of weed-choked canals which now irrigate tens of thousands of farms. This project has created jobs for more than 100,000 Iraqi men and women.

---