Iraqi aftermath
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Infiltrator
Member # 2669
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written Wednesday, July 23 2003 08:42
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Time for another pointless political topic: The aftermath of the Iraqi war is more interesting to me than the war itself. Those ungrateful Iraqis refuse to stop taking potshots at US soldiers; no WMD have been found (big shocker there); turkish commandos are flitting around in the Kurdish territory, desperately trying to stop a Kurdish state from being declared; the Shiites are agitating for a theocracy; and it took 200 U.S. soldiers four hours to kill (no tear gas?) four people in a house, two of which were Saddams sons. Also, I've heard some speculation that british weapons inspector David Kelly's suicide may not entirely have been self-inflicted. I'd just like to see what people think should be done, has been done right or wrong, etc. -------------------- ... Posts: 647 | Registered: Wednesday, February 19 2003 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Wednesday, July 23 2003 09:50
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I've heard Blair is looking 10 years older after that suicide/murder/whatever... The claims are probably partly founded on the fact that his arteries were cut, and that as a scientist (I think he was a biologist, wasn't he?) he would have had easier and less painful ways of killing himself at his disposal. The fact that the number of US and British soldiers killed after the war was declared over has surpassed the number killed during the war (hasn't it?), also makes one think. But I fear this topic will degenerate into a pointless flame war. :( Mark my words. To lighten up moods, here's a hint: Go to google, and search for "Weapons of Mass Destruction", click "I'm feeling Lucky". Enjoy... :D -------------------- "And all should cry, Beware, Beware! His Flashing eyes, his Floating hair!" S. T. Coleridge --- "It is as if everyone had lost their sense Consigned themselves to downfall and decadence And a wisp it is they have chosen as their beacon." Reinhard Mey. --- Quote of the Week: "I have a high opinion of myself, which makes up for my total lack of intelligence." Anon. Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2339
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written Wednesday, July 23 2003 10:15
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Did you know that Iraq didn't actually have biological weapons? That makes the war totally pointless!! I heard about that on the news. -------------------- This is MY link. Click here,or here for the yoga dance mix!Click here to get to the misc. boards! Attack, icons, attack!THIS PAGE ROCKS!! Vicious virus stalks the web, has already infected over 150 computers: read more! We have tried to not harm anything in the making of this commercial, but we failed miserably. One Small Step for man, one giant leap(SHCKXXXXXX)STOP POKING ME!!! -Starcraft Observers R.I.P-Here lies NSI, may this rp be remembered. Posts: 1779 | Registered: Monday, December 9 2002 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Wednesday, July 23 2003 10:53
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The US insisted that Iraq still had 'em, but seemingly they did destroy them like they'd said. And you know about the dossier that the British ministry of defence plagiarized, to the very comma, from a student in the US... :P This war must be the most ridiculous one in the history of mankind. Except for the fact that it's not funny, but that doesn't count, because no war is. -------------------- "And all should cry, Beware, Beware! His Flashing eyes, his Floating hair!" S. T. Coleridge --- "It is as if everyone had lost their sense Consigned themselves to downfall and decadence And a wisp it is they have chosen as their beacon." Reinhard Mey. --- Quote of the Week: "I have a high opinion of myself, which makes up for my total lack of intelligence." Anon. Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 55
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written Wednesday, July 23 2003 11:12
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quote:That's one of the bits that really interested me when I was reading up on some Iraq news a whiel ago...it was some uber-pro-war defense 'expert' who waid tat the war was in fact justified even if weapons weren't found, because...the Iraqis would have destroyed them. But they would have had them at one time, and that's the point! Apparently, doing as you're told but not being able to go back in time is an invadable offense now. Posts: 236 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Wednesday, July 23 2003 11:38
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Especially seeing as the US sold them most of the stuff in the first place. :P -------------------- "And all should cry, Beware, Beware! His Flashing eyes, his Floating hair!" S. T. Coleridge --- "It is as if everyone had lost their sense Consigned themselves to downfall and decadence And a wisp it is they have chosen as their beacon." Reinhard Mey. --- Quote of the Week: "I have a high opinion of myself, which makes up for my total lack of intelligence." Anon. Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 496
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written Wednesday, July 23 2003 13:50
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Dr. Kelly was local to me - even had a friend live on Southmoor Road (OK, not Southmoor village, by the reservoir) a few years ago. The local papers are full of it. I don't rate Kelly's death as assassination, however 'convenient' it is for Blair to claim his posthumous version of Kelly's opinions as true and the BBC's as false. Three points on that: (1) The question is really whether he was driven to suicide rathr than directly killed, (2) Kelly wasn't sole source anyway, and it's difficult for Blair to stand up in the Commons demanding further sources be disclosed against all journalistic ethics, given what happened to Kelly; and(3) Blair couldn't give one for Kelly--as his opportunism shows--but rather because he's on the verge of resignation. A judicial enquiry will take years--also convenuiently after the next election--and any result will be old news by then, however independantly conducted. Before then, though, are the TUC and Labour party conferences, which could see Blair forced to resign by his own membership. He's only still in office now as they don't want (even more obvious) shows of disunity befrore the election. On other matters, (1) it was my fellow ex-Bradfordian Dan Plesch that first exposed the dodgy dossier, (2) the faked Nigerian yellowcake documents are actually even more damning, and (3) note how most senior Iraqi officials are still all surnamed al-Tekriti, so the 'war against Sadaam' is basically no more than that, preserving the old regime in toto with only its most public faces removed (or transferred to playing cards for the illiterate). Rule by terror (whwether indigenous or foreign-imposed) is the only way a 19th century colonial construct like modern Iraq will be held together, 'stable' enough to keep the oil flowing.... Posts: 2333 | Registered: Monday, January 7 2002 08:00 |
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Fire! Fire! Fire! Fire!
Member # 919
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written Wednesday, July 23 2003 15:41
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Ugh. First of all, the Iraqis, in general, are not as they are portrayed in the news; the media makes it seem like every Iraqi keeps a gun under their pillow so they can shoot any American they see. This is far from the truth; most Iraqis are either happy with America, or at least not angry enough to do anything about it. Only a few are taking potshots at our soldiers, and those are not generally supported. I suppose the reason it took so long to kill Odai and Qusai (those were their names, right?) was our soldiers were being cautious, and they did not want unnecessary carnage; I don't blame them. (Unnecessary carnage, how redundant. I guess I should say, they did not want to lose anyone to the rebel's guerilla tactics, and they succeeding in keeping every soldier there alive.) Weapons of mass destruction? Well, I admit that Bush and Blair did blow that out of proportion to get support for the war; but even without the weapons, isn't a war to remove a murderous dictator justified? Because that's what it was about, no matter what anyone, Bush, liberals, Blair, Saddam, tells you. And there must have been something there; why else did Saddam have the experts to do the work for him, and why did he kick the inspectors out? I can't find the exact dates, but that happened in the mid 90's... seems a bit suspicious, doesn't it? And Dr Kelly. I hadn't heard the accusations of assassinations before now, but frankly, that's ridiculous. He was very stressed, for obvious reasons, and he would certainly have slit his wrist if he had no better way; what makes you think this suicide was planned? It was most likely caused by a burst of stress and a knife in his hand. And even if he were murdered, it would be insane for Blair to do this; it would remove the last of the support he has, anywhere. Not that i believe he was murdered at all, but if you think about it, wouldn't radical leftists have more reason than Blair to want him dead? Just think, a couple anti-war teens, freshly incensed about Iraq, and then they hear about how some local man helped justify the war, falsely... well, I know it makes little sense, but then so does accusing Blair. I'm not actually accusing anyone, or even really suggesting anything; I fully believe that it was suicide, not murder. As for anything else, I'll leave that to Ikari... he makes better arguments than me anyway... EDIT: Spelling mistake, I'm sure I could find more if I actually looked. [ Wednesday, July 23, 2003 15:44: Message edited by: Sir David ] -------------------- And though the musicians would die, the music would live on in the imaginations of all who heard it. -The Last Pendragon TEH CONSPIRACY IZ ALL Les forum de la chance. In case of emergency, break glass. Posts: 3351 | Registered: Saturday, April 6 2002 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 3117
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written Wednesday, July 23 2003 17:38
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quote:i completely agree, its been annoying me for awhile now seeing that we're (if ur american or other ally) losing more troops after the war than during the war itself. it really pissed me off when i heard that some rebel iraqui's are sniping guys while there doing things like buying drinks at vendors and looking at cd's... gimme a break, even in war, thats cowardly... -------------------- If your buddy is trying to hook up with a girl, you may sabotage him only in a manner that gives you no chances of getting any either. -The Code Pahk ya cah in hahvad yahd?? What ah ya? retahded?! Can't figure out the other sex? Check out ladder theory! [URL=http://www.laddertheory.com[/URL] Posts: 114 | Registered: Wednesday, June 18 2003 07:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2476
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written Wednesday, July 23 2003 18:02
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Reports of water shortages, lack of electricity and gasoline, diarhhoe because of contaminated water, demolished hospitals, heightened criminality have filled the newspapers now for months. An occupation army the size of that of the allied troops is dragging along a considerable number of technicians, engineers and maintainance workers. I have heard that the US army has a special contingent of technicians who can clean contaminated water, and they can draw on that contingent any time. I fail to understand that almost no repairs have been done. I've given up on that. It is inexplicable as well as inexcusable. Had they wanted to win the Iraqi people's respect and trust, the path to that had been wide open. One could suspect that this nation's people count only insofar, as they might start a revolt, if driven too far. -------------------- Polaris Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 798
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written Wednesday, July 23 2003 19:28
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I personally do not think we should be in Iraq. I allso think The Iraqies are better off that Saddams sons are dead, but I don't think Iraq will be safe untile Saddame is killed. And I allso believe Binladden and Oma should be killed before the U.S pulls out of the MidEast. But I don't think the U.S will pull out of the MidEast Anytime soon, I have a feeling The War on Terrorism will take a good 20 years. Not to mention the thousands of Innocent lives that will get killed. But The War on Terrrorism is more like a obligation than a choice, so I guess none of us has a say in This war. Neither Liberald or Conservative -------------------- Look Ma, I'm banned! Posts: 1046 | Registered: Friday, March 22 2002 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 22
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written Thursday, July 24 2003 07:14
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I think that if Dr. Kelly's death was suicide then it would have to have been premediatated. They found painkillers on him that he would have presumably used to stop the pain of bleeding to death. Of course if it was assasination, the painkillers would have been planted. The judicial inquiry that has been announced has been promised to take a matter of weeks, rather then months. If weapons of mass destruction were in Iraq, I see that as all the more reason not to go to war. What happens with bombing? You get confusion. In that confusion, it would be very easy for the weapons to fall into the hands of those very people who we want not to have them. I fear the new regime that will be brought in in Iraq. I feel that the chances are that the new regime will be an Islamic Republic that will be pro-America. Mixing church and state is always a bad idea, as it leads to religious persecution. -------------------- KazeArctica: "Imagine...wangs everywhere...and tentacles. Nothing but wangs and tentacles! And no pants!" Posts: 2862 | Registered: Tuesday, October 2 2001 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 2669
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written Thursday, July 24 2003 08:41
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I found it somewhat telling that as soon as the news of Uday's and Qusay's death broke, the price of oil dropped. Also, some pundits here have expressed that they're glad they didn't get captured alive, as that would have made the US get together a war crimes tribunal and actually have to present a case against them. Justice American style is much easier. -------------------- ... Posts: 647 | Registered: Wednesday, February 19 2003 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 1249
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written Thursday, July 24 2003 10:37
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"Iraqis detained by U.S. troops have complained of torture and degrading treatment, Amnesty International said Wednesday." I just read this news article about it. It's from Reuters. That really doesn't sound good. Especially when, at the same time, the US seeks immunity from prosecution in the International Criminal Court. I could say much more about the war in Iraq and "war on terror"... But it's probably been said many times already. No WMD's have been found and there is definitely more connection between the US and Iraq's WMD than between Iraq and the September 11th 2001 attacks. And the US has made public a black list of countries it considers evil and bad. Somehow Saudi Arabia, Turkey& Qatar (for example) didn't end up on that list although they aren't really countries which fit into the official definition of democracy... Etc. [ Thursday, July 24, 2003 10:38: Message edited by: Milu ] Posts: 259 | Registered: Saturday, June 1 2002 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 2570
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written Thursday, July 24 2003 10:43
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The war was because of oil. Any other "reasons" are pure propaganda. The Axis of Evil has won, USA is a paranoid, hated nation now. Citizens of USA are alive, kicking and breathing but they are diffrent and they are treated diffrently. -------------------- Speed and power! Galaxies explode! And Kekkonen shall descent to punish us all! It's armageddon,it's armageddon! It's the Day of Kekkonen! "But Dirt Dragon rulz 0k.Dirt Dragon would HäX0r HAL 9000 in 10 seconds if he would get a keyboard!!!!111111YAY DITR DRAONG RULZ 0K YAY LOL OMG WTF!!!!!!11111" Join our *wonderfull* "party" at The Club of All! Join our *lovely* Cult at Dominions X! Iä, Iä my brother... Posts: 166 | Registered: Sunday, February 2 2003 08:00 |
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This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 3098
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written Thursday, July 24 2003 11:07
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Chandrew, a little over a century ago the glorious British Empire went to war with the Orange Free State and the Transvaal for, by and large, economic and expansionist reasons. The boers wore camouflage clothing, used smokeless gunpowder for their artillery, avoided face to face firefights and laid ambushes. The British, in their red uniforms, were outraged. They didn't think it was sporting to blend in with the landscape and fire from a concealed position. They, like you, didn't seem to have realised that war is not about sportsmanship or bravery. It's about killing the other person without getting killed. The Geneva convention does not forbid shooting a man looking the other way. There's only one way to deal with that, which is to be vigilant at all times. Morgan, I very much doubt most suicides were planned, and the evidence suggests this one may not have been. The man's dead and both sides need to step back, shut the hell up for five minutes and start thinking instead of chucking blame. XYZ, Americans aren't treated different from before. The sad truth is that America's been the world's most hated nation for many years. The only difference is that most of the September 11th goodwill from the rest of the world has disappeared for a variety of petty, spiteful and political reasons. In areas like the Middle East, where many still believe with no more evidence than ever (ie none) that Mossad flew the planes into the WTC, the situation's worse, but when you've got an ultra-reactionary religious group like the Wahhabis in such great power, it's unsurprising, and would have been little different had Afghanistan and Iraq not been invaded. David, strange as it may seem, Saddam may have been obstructing the inspectors purely to appear like he did have weapons, so as to make him appear a strong man. He isn't the sort of guy to be happy with appearing like any other national leader. Given that no weapons have been found and you can't just bury them under a sand dune it may turn out to be true in the end. Granted, Iraq isn't in full scale revolt right now, but claims that it's all Ba'athist hangers on are surely false, especially since one of the main centres of resistance was Falluja, historically an anti-Saddam region. The people didn't like Saddam, but they don't much like the west and that'll only get worse if the reconstruction doesn't progress. If Iraq doesn't get to choose its own government, then again resistance is inevitable. Unfortunately, if it does get its own government, it'll probably fall to Shi'ite theocrats, monarchists, communists, Kurds, or any one of a couple of dozen Iraqi factions. The plans for reconstruction had better be a good deal better than I gather from a few soundbites from figures involved in planning the invasion, or there's going to be serious trouble. -------------------- Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned I'll tell you my story, man Though I wish I'd never been born I'm loose at the seams, I've broken my dreams And my hand it shakes the pen Come on, come on now baby, Let the good times roll again Posts: 961 | Registered: Thursday, June 12 2003 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Thursday, July 24 2003 12:27
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Iraq certainly did have WMDs at one point; the US sold/gave such weapons to them. [EDIT: Stupid Mistake removed. Should read: "Afghanistan, too, got 'mundane' weapons from the US, which were then used against the US when they invaded Afghanistan."] A major problem of the United States gov't has been that they seem to follow the philosophy: "The enemies of our enemies are our friends." They have rarely thought twice about lending support to guerilla/rebel troops or fascist regimes, as long as these were opposing a country or government the US was opposing at that point. So, it happened that a regime at least as oppressive as Saddam's in Iraq - the Taliban in Afghanistan - was supported and aided while they were fighting the Soviet Union. In the Avatar topic, there are numerous other such incidents where a regime was supported by the US, and later had to be put down like Saddam's has been. I am not accusing, or demonizing the US; all I'm saying is that they have made many of their enemies themselves. :( [ Thursday, July 24, 2003 13:19: Message edited by: Arancaytar ] -------------------- "And all should cry, Beware, Beware! His Flashing eyes, his Floating hair!" S. T. Coleridge --- "It is as if everyone had lost their sense Consigned themselves to downfall and decadence And a wisp it is they have chosen as their beacon." Reinhard Mey. --- Quote of the Week: "I have a high opinion of myself, which makes up for my total lack of intelligence." Anon. Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 3098
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written Thursday, July 24 2003 13:11
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They certainly did have them at some point, but the last of them may have become unusable or been destroyed some time ago. Can you give me the evidence of WMDs being used by the Taliban. I've certainly never heard anything to that effect. -------------------- Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned I'll tell you my story, man Though I wish I'd never been born I'm loose at the seams, I've broken my dreams And my hand it shakes the pen Come on, come on now baby, Let the good times roll again Posts: 961 | Registered: Thursday, June 12 2003 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Thursday, July 24 2003 13:16
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Whoops, sorry. :eek: This happens if you post while you're tired. :rolleyes: I certainly did make a mistake there, what I meant was that Iraq got bio-weapons etc. from America, and Afghanistan got *normal* weapons from America, some of which were used against the US then, for example the Patriot missile (hope I got that one right). No, as far as I know, Afghanistan never had nor used WMDs. I made a logical mistake their, sorry. -------------------- "And all should cry, Beware, Beware! His Flashing eyes, his Floating hair!" S. T. Coleridge --- "It is as if everyone had lost their sense Consigned themselves to downfall and decadence And a wisp it is they have chosen as their beacon." Reinhard Mey. --- Quote of the Week: "I have a high opinion of myself, which makes up for my total lack of intelligence." Anon. Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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Fire! Fire! Fire! Fire!
Member # 919
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written Thursday, July 24 2003 17:11
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OK, I admit we are not doing very well, post-war, but we're really not doing as bad as you might think (thanks to the media and yellow journalism). It's hard to help the people when others are shooting at you from behind trees, and this irrational (yes, irrational, though I admit it's the fault of their leaders and the terrorist propaganda, not their own) hatred of the West does nothing to help. Ef has already said that establishing clean water, etc. would help (I agree with that, but like I said, it's hard to do when you have to keep looking over your shoulder and might end up getting shot anyway), but what else would you all suggest? I'm already getting kind of annoyed about how you all complain, blame, accuse, but never suggest, accept, help. -------------------- And though the musicians would die, the music would live on in the imaginations of all who heard it. -The Last Pendragon TEH CONSPIRACY IZ ALL Les forum de la chance. In case of emergency, break glass. Posts: 3351 | Registered: Saturday, April 6 2002 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 2669
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written Thursday, July 24 2003 17:52
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I do believe pretty much everyone here suggested that the US stay out of Iraq. -------------------- ... Posts: 647 | Registered: Wednesday, February 19 2003 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 521
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written Thursday, July 24 2003 22:15
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It's too late, way way too late. Rebuilding Iraq is reality. Saying for the US to leave today is to live in a fantasy world. How do we fix things now is what Sir David is saying, how do we do it? My 2 cents is to start a process to bring in UN forces with America as the lead force. The United States will still be the primary forces, but bring in others to ease the load, free up troops for Liberia and provide additional security for engineering forces. I also want a Mashall style plan, one that keeps Iraqi Oil in a PROPERLY managed trust to provide for the Iraqis, while our funds go to fix the infrastructure, insure food supplies and clean up any possible environmental issues cause by the war. As full the pull out time table, I suggest a few years, possible as few as 2, or as many as five as a democratic government is formed and resistances are taken care of. If you were to compare to ww2, you have a much quicker timeline, perhaps one that is overly optimistic, if you consider there were hold outs of Japanese resistance until the 70's. I think this is a good path, but if you have a better plan or good critism with alternatives, I would find it informational. Would, because I have been playing gf2 all evening and was the first to registar it. So, later folks. -------------------- I am not really here. Posts: 956 | Registered: Wednesday, January 16 2002 08:00 |
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This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 3098
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written Friday, July 25 2003 06:58
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Ikari, there were extenuating circumstances to do with the last Japanese surrenders in 1975. Like the fact that they were thousands of miles from civilisation and they'd been effectively brainwashed. David, not every American soldier is being shot at all the time. Besides, the problem as far as I can tell is that nobody anticipated things like the water supply being cut off, so the reconstruction is a confused mess. -------------------- Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned I'll tell you my story, man Though I wish I'd never been born I'm loose at the seams, I've broken my dreams And my hand it shakes the pen Come on, come on now baby, Let the good times roll again Posts: 961 | Registered: Thursday, June 12 2003 07:00 |
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Fire! Fire! Fire! Fire!
Member # 919
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written Friday, July 25 2003 15:40
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Yes, as someone who is surely long dead said, "The best laid plans of mice and men often go astray." I find that quote hilarious, for reasons that only one other person on the face of the Earth would understand, and that person is not at Spiderweb. As far as I know, anyway. Ikari is right, I wish the UN would help out more so we can send more soldiers to Liberia, a country that is openly begging for US help. RentBoy, that's not a way to solve the current situation unless someone has a time machine in their pocket, and anyway, the war would probably end up happening some time in the future anyway, and maybe with less preparation. -------------------- And though the musicians would die, the music would live on in the imaginations of all who heard it. -The Last Pendragon TEH CONSPIRACY IZ ALL Les forum de la chance. In case of emergency, break glass. Posts: 3351 | Registered: Saturday, April 6 2002 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 2669
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written Friday, July 25 2003 16:16
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The war would happen some time in the future anyways with less preparation? That, kind sir, is bullcrap. Iraq has had nothing to do with Al-Qaeda and terrorism (at least the kind aimed against the US), and there are NO WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION. The Iraqis once again proved they were no match militarily for the US, and they weren't even threatening anyone this time. And who, pray tell, would they have launched a war against? And the UN does want to get involved, too bad the US hasn't let them in on the process. The best the US can do for now is try to restore basic services, provide aid to all those put out of work by the dissolution of the Iraqi government (a disgruntled soldier is a dangerous thing), and try to build up their economy, but not by raping the land of its natural resources. That still will probably make them great friends of the US, but it might stop the potshots. -------------------- ... Posts: 647 | Registered: Wednesday, February 19 2003 08:00 |