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Bipolar in General
Shaper
Member # 6292
Profile #125
quote:
Originally written by Student of Trinity:

Not all desperately heartfelt prayers, for instance, are granted.
I sure spent a lot of years frustrating through this experience, and now I realize, God does not choose anything for me. By what criteria would God determine which answers are yea and which are nay?

How about this: by virtue of making a statement of what we want, as true creators in the image of the Creator, we are creating the experience of want for ourselves. If we say, "I want this. Please give me this," we are saying that we do not have it, and the universe agrees with us. And that is what we continue to experience...wanting. But when we make a statement of what is not as if it now is..., well, I am, that I am.

-S-

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Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00
Bipolar in General
Shaper
Member # 6292
Profile #112
"Your brain chemistry may depend entirely on whether or not you believe in the paranormal.”

Another explanation. Is biology the cause...or the effect? Give yourself back to yourself and see biology as highly reflective of your cognitive, emotional, and psychological states, not the determinant. This gives us mandate to take further accountability for what we experience, rather than being the recipient, or even victim, of our experience.

We're making all this up.

-S-

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Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00
Bipolar in General
Shaper
Member # 6292
Profile #93
Body, mind, spirit (or soul) - all critical, vital, wonderful parts of us by which to have the fullness of our experience. Each serves us brilliantly when in harmony with the other parts. So, I'm not "against" mind, or see it as bad or weak. I love my mind. I use it all the time. It serves me brilliantly, and it gets me into trouble.

I perceive we live in a time which has often encouraged the development of mind over other parts, and this could only leave us to some degree out of touch with other vital parts necessary for our full experience and wisdom. When I experience the exercise of mind without the participation of the soul coming through, I may be inclined to describe the experience as "soulless." It feels hollow, sterile, joyless, and , incomplete to me. I feel I experience a whole lot of that in a world that is very much in love with information at present. This has nothing to do with the value or "validity" of the information in itself.

Somehow, I feel like quoting a very old Simpsons skit from the days of the Tracy Ullman show. This from the mouth of Homer, before he was a complete moron: " What is mind? No matter. What is matter? Never mind."

-S-

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Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00
Episode 4: Spiderweb Reloaded. Something like that anyway. in General
Shaper
Member # 6292
Profile #488
The Peoples Third Person Underground Faction has abducted her, and is using her subversively as their puppet representative, their public persona. They have very big plans for us all, and this is just the beginning.

-S-

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Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00
Bipolar in General
Shaper
Member # 6292
Profile #85
A merry day, of whichever sort it is for you, to all. At the very least, you have every right to be merry and festive today.

quote:
Originally written by ef:

My own language does not differentiate between feeling and emotion, we have one word for both.
What language is yours, if I may ask? My use of "feeling" here is focused on feeling as a bodily sensation mostly. More elaboration below.

Emotions move like waves, always changing, having highs and lows, coming and going.

Yes, sounds good, energy in motion. Moreover, when we move energy, we create effect. Emotional energy is strongly creative energy for what we end up experiencing.

'Feeling' refers to deeper layers than emotion and does not change, is a state of being.

Yes, agree, I think, though we can change what we are being too. But in any moment of being, it could be seen as a "steady state" rather than the wave in motion we could describe emotion as being. Am I on the same page with you? What we are feeling tells us truly what we are being. Feeling is the language of the soul, yet it registers in the body, so to know how we are being, we can pay attention to what we feel in our body. The tummy test is said to be the quickest way to do this. It is far from the only way. Emotions are also felt in the body, and this is one reason this whole picture can quickly get confusing.

Love is the only feeling I am aware of.

What about joy? It has been said that the soul IS joy. Its natural being, feeling, expression is joy and joyful. To whatever degree we do not experience ourselves as being joyful is the degree to which we are cutting ourselves off from experiencing our core, true state. Love and joy could be said to be nearly synonymous, because the one creates the other. Joy leads to love. Love leads to joy. It is probably equally true to say that the soul is love also, just as it is said that God is love. It would be an entire, and perhaps worthwhile diversion, but it could be said that much of what humans think of and experience as "love" is not really what love is at all. So "love" is another word begging definition.

Now feeling and intuition. If what I learned is valid, feeling and intuition cannot be synonyms, as intuition is most certainly not a state of being. Feeling, on the other hand, is not a surprising nanosecond of immediate recognition and clarity.

Good point. Perhaps it could be said that feeling is the immediate prededent to intuition. The feeling helps to create the intuition, which can flow immediately out of feeling. To pay attention to one's deepest feeling, felt sense, is to find that which constructs our intuitions. I still see them as very closely aligned, if not identical. If I put it this way: intuitions are a felt sense, a sensing about a thing, rather than a cognition about a thing. We can take the intuition we feel in our being/body and use the mind to quickly translate it into a thought, put it into words, or give it meaning. Here we may start to assign incorrect meaning to what we think we are sensing, depending on our belief system about any number of things. I think the very heart or beginning of intuition starts as a felt sense in the body, and that simply is the language of what we call intuition. Much of what we often think of or experience as our "intuition" is the afterproduct of processing intuition with our mind. We are so familiar with, and taught to trust in our mind level of experience, that intuition in its pure state, may seem too simple or alien to what we are used to being aware of and trusting.

The trick is to align our mind with what the soul is actually communicating, and not to mistranslate it. I think intuition is still the initial felt sense, and then we flesh it out with our other faculties, which are designed to process our truth into our experience. The only real question is not if we are doing it, but how we are doing it. There is the intuition itself, and then there is how we experience the intuition.

Moreover, having a 'gut feeling' is not the only way people come in contact with intuition. It can just as easily be experienced as 'expanded mind', no emotion or feeling involved whatsoever.

I entirely agree with the first part. I think if it is experienced as expanded mind, that may be a second tier of experience, as the intuition still starts as a felt sense in your being, which the mind can then appropriate. I'm willing to be incorrect in my understanding here. A fair bit of this thinking is relatively new to me, and I have plenty to explore, experience, and appropriate for myself. Will you tell me more out of your truth and experience on this? I'm largely relaying a model provided in the Conversations With God books, and the one which makes most sense to me and my experience. This all becomes very esoteric, and words begin to become clumsy and fail to describe the reality. There are also so many facets to our reality. I try to not close off to the "both/and" of truth. There can be even seeming paradoxical aspects and experiences to the same truth. I am thinking that what you are saying about different ways of experiencing your intuition are probably just as true.

You say that emotion is a response to intuition or an interpretation of intuition. I don't understand that at all. Do you assume that every emotion we have should be seen as a response to an intuition that we may or may not be aware of?

That's a very good question, and I'm not sure how I'd answer this entirely. I know I can say that emotion is what we experience as a result of making meaning for ourselves. Whether or not that is based on intuitions a their core always, I can't say. One part of me is thinking that because our Soul/Self/God is always speaking to us, there is a true message about our being always coming forth. If we are stuck in our head or out of touch with our felt sense, our intuition, then the experiences we are having, meaning being made, emotions experienced, are out of sync with the deep feeling being ignored, buried, or misinterpreted. I don't know yet how to picture all the actual mechanics here.

However, I could clarify that emotion can be a response to, and interpretation of an intuition, but certainly doesn't have to be. Depending on how we process or translate a felt sense, we may create an emotion from it, which we may confuse as the original "feeling" about a thing. But it is not your original feeling or intuition about a thing...it's your translation of it, once you have assigned it your own meaning. The original feeling/intuition is something you are simply being-aware of a truth about yourself which registers in your body. The emotion is something you are doing by putting that energy into motion - making a meaning for yourself based upon that truth. And like I'm saying, we may accurately make meaning of the core signal, or we may assign a skewed meaning to it. We may not need or choose to make an emotional response to many intuitions at all.

Typically, we take (or perhaps even ignore and override) our felt sense, immediately process it with our mind and assign a meaning out of what we think we are experiencing. That meaning leads to us "feeling" a certain way, which in this case is what we are calling "emotion." I may feel afraid or unworthy in a situation, in which my soul is actually communicating an excitement about a challenge, because I have accumulated beliefs about myself, perhaps even on the subconscious level contrary to what I consciously think about myself, that tell me I am no good, not able, not worthy, or not safe. If I were just listening to the pure language of my soul, in, say, my tummy, I would recognize a feeling of excitement, but I have translated it as dread, and I feel threatened, and then sadness, because it seems like something outside my capacity to handle or master, based on my belief about myself in context of that situation.

A lot of work in psychotherapy can revolve around exploring with a client the meanings they are assigning to their thoughts, beliefs, and experiences. It can be helpful to see how arbitrary that construction can be, or how it is someone else's meaning and programming which has been appropriated by the self. It can be especially useful to help a client get in touch with her or his own body through mindfulness exercises and the like. It quiets the interpreting mind and outplaying emotions, and helps the client begin to experience what the body is simply communicating and saying. It is a truer barometer of how the client is actually being, and often that being is something the client has translated or projected into something other that what it actually is. I enjoy and employ existential and Gestalt therapy techniques which seek to focus on bodily awareness and have parts of the body even speak, as if they had their own voice. It can be very telling and (re)orienting. Gestalt techniques have the reputation for being some of the most potent, and streamlined, (and even "dangerous") techniques available in therapy, because they can so quickly get a person into layers of buried feeilng. This may get more complicated, because a lot of that tapped feeling is still emotion that has been disowned or stuffed by the person as being too threatening or unacceptable, and it literally goes into the body somewhere.

The communication of the soul is our deepest and truest level of self speaking to us though. One may first have to process much that one has not even been able to own for oneself in the realm of emotion, before one is ready to get in touch with that even deeper, simpler, quieter feeling and intuition. A lot can get in its way.

Also, why should your reaction to an intuition be emotional at all?

It doesn't need to be, and may not be. The point I was making is that when we do have an emotional response, it is an interpretation, and not to be confused with the original feeling. This, because we so often use "feeling" and "emotion" to mean the same thing, as you say your language does? Another word for "feeling" here, might be "sensation" or "sensing," which you were suggesting. And again, the original feeling and the outplaying emotion may be very congruent. It all depends how we are interpreting it, and how much we are getting in our own way.

I am curious where you come by your thoughts and interest on these matters?

Merry Xmess and Happy Holidaze,

-S-

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Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00
Bipolar in General
Shaper
Member # 6292
Profile #83
Your soul telling you your truth in the language of the soul.

-S-

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Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00
Bipolar in General
Shaper
Member # 6292
Profile #81
I do hereby concede that others here have made salient and valid points and observations, and that my means, modes, moods, motivations, and convictions can all stand re-vision. I hereby announce my withdrawal from the candidacy for President.

...

I have been having one experience. I now choose another.

...

ef - Very cool and very interesting. Perhaps you are more in touch with and clear on your intuition than I have yet learned to be with mine.

Feeling is the same thing as intuition, as I have been using the term in context of this discussion. Emotion, energy in motion, is a response to feeling/intuition, and not identical to feeling. Your deepest feeling could be seen as always true. Your emotion is an interpretation/response which may or may not match and mirror your feeling/felt sense/intuition. Which I realize is basically repeating what I said previously.

-S-

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Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00
Bipolar in General
Shaper
Member # 6292
Profile #77
quote:
Originally written by Thuryl:

Those "intuitive and feeling functions" are not something intrinsic to women
This is, and has always been, my argument here. Look at how I worded the statement, if you are thinking I was suggesting otherwise.

-S-

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Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00
Dikiyoba Seeks to Flaunt the Meaningless Approbation of Dikiyoba's Fellows in General
Shaper
Member # 6292
Profile #44
Maybe he was abducted by aliens from an ocean planet — who wanted to have a few words with him.

Or maybe he shot himself in both legs.

-S-

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Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00
Bipolar in General
Shaper
Member # 6292
Profile #70
quote:
Originally written by ef:

Synergy, you wrote that 'your soul recoils', and I thought: mmh, as I understand 'soul', it wouldn't recoil, couldn't really, so Synergy's concept must be different from mine, but what is it? How does Synergy define 'soul' which is such a very important aspect of life to him? I don't know. He doesn't tell us.

Likewise 'intuition'. How do you define 'intuition', what precisely do you refer to when you say that you want to let yourself be led by it? What is leading you?

The concepts may be very clear to you, in which case understanding would be easier, if you shared them with us.

Fair enough, ef. You're the first person in some time who has actually asked me to define simple terms like this, rather than assume they understand what I mean by them. My assumption has been that mostly that means that people just don't care and aren't interested, and that's fine too. But, I'm impressed. I've been waiting for someone to do it. It demonstrates a person may care to understand you, rather than judge you and your intent, without further inquiry. I would hope any of us would be happy to try to explain our terms, if someone would only ask. So..thanks for asking. I'm happy to try. I think genuine dialog that honors the other would tend to proceed more along these lines often "What do you mean by that?" "OK, and what do you mean by that?" I'm not sure if I've been modeling that sufficiently myself. I crave dialog on that level though. Curiosity, rather than judgement, and pre-judgement, which is prejudice. It is also how therapists are taught to conduct therapy.

Soul, as I use it, is essentially what in psychology is called the 'superconscious.' It is the part of you which is most in connection with God, as many would put it. It knows everything there is to know, and what you are seeking to experience in this life here. It is bigger than the you you think you know. It actually keeps you on that track regardless of what you consciously think of your experience. It goes far beyond your conscious awareness of things. It is the part of you which communicates truth through your deepest feeling, your gut response, if you are in tune with it. The part of you that can reliably register what your Soul is saying is your tummy. The tummy knows. If you sit with a thing, that gut feeling will tell you what is true for you, what is "right"/appropriate for you, what resonates with you. The soul is the part of Self people commune with in meditation and other practices to find clarity, centering, inspiration, communion with Self, with God, and a sense of connection with all others as well. Intuition is the feeling and communication that comes from your soul, which is always your truth.

The trouble often comes in when we translate our deepest feeling or intuition into emotion by processing it through the thinking of the mind. That is where we assign meaning to things, and we are often incorrect in the meanings we assign. This is not to imply there is anything bad about the mind. It's just the place and filter where we have so much misinformation accumulated. Depending on what meaning you give things, you will have a certain experience and emotion in response. The emotion we experience may or may not accurately reflect the original feeling communicated by the soul. But the initial signal, message, communication from that deepest part of you is never confused, and it is always your truth. It is impossible for your soul itself to ever mislead you. Learning to get in touch with your deepest feeling on things, and not confusing that with your outplaying emotions is key to being led by what is true.

I am not claiming I have anything close to perfect awareness of my true feeling and intuition. But as I look back over my life, I have recognized in retrospect how much more than I realized, that it has led me where I needed to go, and was communicating truth to me long before I had a conscious reason to accept its message or understand why it was true. I had the feeling and sense of many things before an understanding of them. Ultimately, to be led by the Soul is to be led by God in you, God as you, but God is such a loaded word and concept, I hesitate to use it too often. So many assumptions rush in as to what "God" means. There's another word that begs definition anytime anyone uses it. As if God could ever be defined anyway.

And to put it in context, I understand a human being to be a triune being, as are all sublime things in the spiritual/absolute realm: body, mind, and soul. Soul = spirit in many people's lingo, same thing. In some views of God, we have Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Time, which is also sublime consists of past, present, and future. Space consists of here, there, and the space between. In the material universe, we experience things as dualities however, and polarities. Hot/cold, good/evil, up/down, left/right, tall/short...manic/depressed.

One could say that Bipolar Disorder is a pefect demonstration of this as well, at an extreme.

Feel free to make further inquiry, if desired or required.

Thanks for playing.

Oh, and P.S., I also want to ask you your thought about what the soul is.

-S-

[ Sunday, December 23, 2007 11:38: Message edited by: Synergy ]

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Omaha Mall Shooting in General
Shaper
Member # 6292
Profile #454
Well, if it's not a choice, but still a sin, then God's got a pretty cruel sense of humor.

Actually, that's the entire argument of a number of religions though. God gave you free will to choose, but you are born into being "sinful" whether you choose it or not. Morever, depending on what you do choose to do, God will either greatly reward you or punish you. But you have free choice. It's just that you have unthinkable consequences if you don't choose the one choice God wants you to choose. We create God in our image. This God is one who employs manipulation, essential coercion, and bribery, but calls it "free will." I think this is a ridiculous mockery.

-S-

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Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00
Bipolar in General
Shaper
Member # 6292
Profile #68
Well, there's a simple bottom line. Words do not and cannot best express much of what I would communicate, anyway. Words without a body, voice, and eye-contact to convey much of the energy and feeling of what I am communicating are almost ludicrously limited in their ability to do so. It is less of an issue where one is concerned with communicating data/fact rather than high concept or the intuitive, and that which really can only be known experientially. God can never be communicated through words, which is why for all the divine messengers and messages that have come to the world, they have one and all been bastardized and misappropriated once committed to the page. There is no particular remedy to this dilemma, the limitation of words. I don't believe words are, or will be, our highest form of communication at all. I can conceive of a future human society, in which words eventually play a far less central role. I say this as one who dearly loves words and their power. One can only attempt awkwardly within the confines of the tools one has on hand. This awareness sometimes fuels my laments about the limitations of online relationship even to the point of declaring it is not "real" relationship, for which I also caught a deal of flak.

This all harkens to one of the four existential dilemmas we contend with: Isolation and Connection: no matter how much we desire to be known, the reality in this realm is that no one else can truly know you, what it is to be you, what you experience, or just what it is you are even trying to communicate even. No one else can be you. Somehow we all have to come to terms with this, and find this as okay. This is part of an illusion, anyway, because on a higher level, we are all part of the same being, the same energy, the same God, if you will. I have come to terms with the concept of this dilemma in the immediate context of the illusion. I still struggle with the experience of this. I, like anyone, at heart desire to be known as I am, and embraced for that. I think anyone being honest would admit this is a basic desire we all share. We desire to express Who We Are and be acknowledged, accepted, and found desirable and useful for that.

For the kinds of things I do like to talk about, and the way I do like to communicate (which is full of wordplay, irony, paradox, teasing, subtlety, and the seemingly contradictory side by side), I don't know how much better I could make much clear in print alone without derailing and negating all the devices I like to employ. If you have to explain the joke, what's the point of telling it?

When I turned Alorael's statement about my never being a scientist, so not being qualified to comment on scientists, I thought there was a very inherent and inviting irony and parody to be made by using it to show that the very same thinking can equally point out that a person who has never been a woman should therefore be unable to comment on the experience of women. It was more tongue in cheek than serious, but it also makes a point.

I immediately knew that in doing so, it would be used to point out that I also have never been a woman, that the point applies equally to myself. Which it does of course. Anyone with a remote sense of who I am should realize that I am intelligent enough to be quite aware of the tremendous irony employed in utilizing such a simple statement, which can be turned right back around on myself just as equally. I am quite willing to poke just as much fun at my precious self as any other. I don't get that people acknowledge or appreciate that about me. I don't see many people willing to do that, personally.

Predictably, anyone who pointed at that parodied statement only chose to use it to condemn me, but not to observe or validate the essential truth toward everyone else, which is that at one level, none of us is truly fit to speak absolutely for that which we have not experienced. I found the nature of response disappointingly disingenuine, utilized only to attack someone who was irritating them, but not to fairly treat the point.

Meanwhile, despite this existential limitation also just described, we are all qualified to speak on that which we do experience, which in my case is what it feels like to the person one is in the context of any environment one has been in. Moreover, one can corroborate that others are describing a similar experience in that context. Even moreover, if one has developed empathy, one can begin to experience in oneself what others experience. It is not necessary to be the other person in their position to get a feeling for aspects of their experience. Thus, another paradox, and seeming contradiction. Both aspects are true. You cannot be known, yet you can be known. We can't walk in another's shoes and speak for their experience, yet we can. Let's be fair in our use of such leveraging, if we are going to use it. It works in all directions. I acknowledge it on my behalf. Who will acknowledge it on their own behalf?

I find we have much more in common as human beings than not. I don't personally find women difficult to understand or baffling or mysterious. I think the primary reason men do is because they have largely been isolated in gender roles which serve to disconnect them from parts of being which women are permitted to be and express, not because we are inherently that different at heart or capacity. I see so much of what we are and do as contrivance and role-playing, not what we are biologically or genetically predetermined.

-S-

[ Sunday, December 23, 2007 10:52: Message edited by: Synergy ]

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Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00
Bipolar in General
Shaper
Member # 6292
Profile #66
quote:
Originally written by Arancaytar:

quote:
Originally written by Synergy:

words, which are mere approximate symbols for realities which are known only by experience and felt sense in the first place.
They may be, but like it or not, they are what our world consists of. What is your reality if nobody else believes in it?

Do you imagine that anything I have to say or have embraced is exclusive to me or my own imagining? I appreciate the possible consideration that I am that original and inventive, but I assure you it is not the case. As I mentioned recently, the "bizarre" concepts of reality I have inserting into my dialog of late, are largely contained in the "Conversations With God" books of Neale Donald Walsch, which were multi-million bestsellers starting a decade ago. It is estimated that each book of the initial trilogy at least, has been read by ten million people. There is a well-received movie that came out about a year ago of the same title about the life of the author. So provocative and compelling was the material and ideas in these books, that CWG study groups formed spontaneously all over the world to engage the material. It's ongoing. I've formed a group with some fellow enthusiasts here in Seattle. There is also an existing group a few miles from where I live which I have also visited. So, if I were the only one who believed in this crazy stuff, it would be a lonely and loony preoccupation indeed. I will agree fully however that it is indeed a serious mind-trip.

There is nothing new under the sun, and for any idea you hear, there are probably quite a few people who believe it or practice it. It might even be working for them in ways not imaginable by others. You might be amazed how many people believe, are contemplating, testing, or working out of some of the wacky stuff I've been spouting. It's a bigger, richer, more diverse world than any of us in our finiteness is capable of comprehending, or fit to judge. As Shakespeare aptly put into the mouth of Hamlet many years ago, "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Thanks for the perhaps inadvertent vote of confidence, but I'm just an assimilator and recompiler of whatever I cross that makes me jump up and down (or feel totally at peace with) inside. Then I seek to see if and how it works.

-S-

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Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00
Dikiyoba Seeks to Flaunt the Meaningless Approbation of Dikiyoba's Fellows in General
Shaper
Member # 6292
Profile #42
quote:
Originally written by Jumpin' Salmon:

quote:
Originally written by Dikiyoba:

(Edit: Dikiyoba wins, Salmon. :P )
IMAGE(http://www.wolfstad.com/wp-content/2006/karnimata/lotsa-rats-at-bowl-only.jpg)
IMAGE(http://www.badastronomy.com/pix/signs_tinfoilhats.jpg)
IMAGE(http://www.badastronomy.com/pix/signs_tinfoilhats.jpg)

I get it!

"Rats! Foiled again!"

-S-

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Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00
Bipolar in General
Shaper
Member # 6292
Profile #64
Slarty said: "you have commented on several occasions that people have a hard time understanding what you are trying to say. If this is the case on multiple occasions and for many different readers, you might want to consider the possibility that your prose is not taking the most direct route to your intended meaning."

I have considered this. I do think about things like this. Often I know I can word things better. Often I try. Often no matter how much I try, words fail me. My main conclusion is that qualities of my personality type, generation, and interests are all in a minority here, so it is frequently like trying to communicate in a different language to be understood. I do not have this problem in other envrionments in a similar way. If I did, the logical conclusion would be that it is entirely my own disconnect occurring. As Alex pointed out intuitively early on in my appearance here, "you're an NF, aren't you?" I am largely not amongst my kind in an environment full of people whose preoccupations are the hard sciences. This becomes extremely frustrating, irritating, or discouraging at times. Like I said, why am I even bothering? I see virtually no sign of appreciation for what I bring to the table. Even more discouraging, I see very little intrinsic honoring of fellow human beings here. I find myself being less honorable here than I feel represents me or my heart.

I have never felt inclined to defend myself against the dispersions of Alec, because he fails to treat his fellow human being with basic dignity, respect, and honor. I value myself enough to not let someone who demonstrates no respect for another to walk all over me or make demands of me.

I will admit that where I "whiff" it is in how I say things when I am irritated, not in what I am trying to communicate or where my heart is at beneath it. I often say, it is not what you say, it is how you say it. If I had worded a thing more gently, there would probably be little controversy over the statement. For instance, I might have said something more like:

Women have made headway into all sorts of arenas formerly dominated by men. What has changed less is the way the work environment works, and what aspects of human contribution are valued. The intuitive and feeling functions most typically seen and accepted in women are still not seen as particularly viable, acceptable, or useful components of the institutionalized working world.

This is merely one aspect I could mention, not the entirety of the supposition. There are many people and writings out there commenting how women still struggle against male attitudes and biases and ways of doing business in the working world. Progress is also being made, and I am overall optimistic about where we are headed. I can be both very upset with how things are and optimistic about our prospects at the same time. I grow weary seeing how often people seem unable to observe or reconcile that both sentiments can sit easily enough side by side in the same human being. I see a lot of you are "all this" or "all that" responsiveness here. I think we all take issue when we get simplified, negated, stereotyped. I am guilty as well, and for that, please accept my apology.

A bit more on the revised statement: There are exceptions and brave women helping to reform workplace roles, as I plainly stated in the context of my prior assertion. I note all responses failed to acknowledge that, at the very least, I allowed for exceptions. I stand by my original assertion. I acknowledge that the way I communicated it was needlessly provocative. I know my heart and meaning. None of you really does, because you'd have to actually be with another person in person to get any real feeling for who and how they are, but I note a number of you seem to take particular relish in assuming and assigning the worse you can to another. This I find truly repellant, disturbing, and discouraging. It's an "evil eye
" syndrome, a glass half empty, a true disregard for the most magnificent thing there is, another person who can never be, think, or do quite like you, which neither makes her or him superior nor inferior. I find many attitudes here a miserable estimation of one's fellow human being. Frankly, it breaks my heart to witness. And it sometimes I become very angry in response. When I speak at those times, it ain't pretty, and I get into trouble. I continue to work on this quality of my behavior, because I find it both uproductive and undesirable in myself and in anyone. I do apologize for offenses caused by my doing so here. I do not apologize for my underlying heart or beliefs. I find those pure. My delivery frequently fails or just plain sucks. I also seem to have a perverse penchant for choosing a challenging environment. I think this is more for what I will glean from the experience, than what anyone else is likely to get from anything I engage here. But I don't know. These things are mysteries.

I am inclined to rail at times against "scientists," because I have found that a person like myself who operates more in the realm of intuition and feeling, is typically despised or discarded by the spirit of science and those who dwell in it. It has reduced reality to what I do see as a nearly entirely soulless and mechanistic view of the world and the human being. My soul recoils at that view alone, and I do consider it quite to be missing some of the grandest and most pertinent qualities of being. It doesn't make science or scientists wrong or evil to me, but it does make it incomplete, and, at times, conceited in outrightly dismissing that which is outside its grasp, interest, dogma, power of observation, or belief sytsem. Science is a belief system, though it likes to think otherwise. Science does look and feel very much like the, yes, stereotypical male mindset in the world to me. I see it as the natural product of the way the male mind seeks to experience, know, manipulate, and control the world in very concrete terms. It's great stuff. It's valuable. It's wonderful. It's also only part of the grand puzzle and experience of life, and it could be more humble to at least consider the possibility that there is much outside its grasp that is relevant to our existence. I do see science as religion in its attitude. "We are the One Truth, and our Method is the One True Method. There is no other way to the Kingdom, but through us. We will bring you salvation." This I resist. Around this I at times become upset, because I see it negating many wonderful things and people. It denies God. It reduces Love to neurochemistry and hormones. Science is unromantic. I am always inclined to stick up for the underdog. Science is not the underdog in this present day.

And actually, I live in an environment, Seattle, which is bustling with all kinds of cool metaphysical, spiritual, and alternate practices of health and life. This stuff is growing steadily in the country, probably to the dismay of a man like Alec, whom I believe can only see this as a misfortune. I could choose to stop fussing over an aspect of the world I already see being modified and increasingly balanced against, because once again, I am quite hopeful about where everything is headed. When I spend time in an environment that does not exhibit this so much, I can become reactionary again. No one enjoys feeling marginalized. I experience and wrestle within myself with the duality of opposite viewpoints about the world I myself hold.

People are very complex. I see so much simplistic reductionism of others and their viewpoints here, it's pathetic. I'm guilty. I'm admitting it. In my heart, I see no one as simplistic or anything other than wholly wonderful, unique, and yes, magnificent. I continue to seek to align my expression and my heart. I think that is why I have persisted here. It is a good, challenging arena for me in which to exercise and gauge this progress. I still think I've had enough though. I need appreciation sooner or later, or I will simply stop a thing. What's the fun of it? I really don't get off on conflict for its own sake. The only person I recall ever actually stating in any way that they appreciated my being here in the last year is Salmon.

-S-

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Bipolar in General
Shaper
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Profile #56
I do have magnificent abilities...as do you. I have yet to experience mine being either recognized or appreciated here.

-S-

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Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00
Bipolar in General
Shaper
Member # 6292
Profile #53
Comfort yourself with that naive belief, if it serves you, but it fits right into the "stereotypical" picture I was painting quite unconcisely with words, which are mere approximate symbols for realities which are known only by experience and felt sense in the first place.

-S-

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Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00
Bipolar in General
Shaper
Member # 6292
Profile #51
Your responses all demonstrate you don't even understand what I have said by what I have said. I stand by what I said, but I will not explain it further.

-S-

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Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00
Bipolar in General
Shaper
Member # 6292
Profile #49
Per usual, what I am saying is not being communicated here. I'm not even going to attempt to justify, validate, re-explain, recontextualize what I have meant or the spirit I have spoken it in here. I won't seek to elaborate yet again on the ironies or paradoxes of holding seemingly conflicting ideas and feelings about things, yet the reality of this experience is full of them. The air is rife with projection on all sides, and I'm not excluding myself from that. Words are the most ineffective and treacherous way to communicate. I'm weary of making the unuseful and unappreciated effort here. I don't find myself engaged with anyone I actually enjoy communicating with or seem to have much in common with, though I have made a lot of effort to find that on some meaningful level. That's not a judgement, it's an observation, but it begs me the question, why am I bothering? Must be the perpetual optimist in me to find that which is not readily evident in an unlikely place, but I do not believe I will be endeavoring to do so any more. My kind is not appreciated here, so why be here. I will devote the time to the places I am appreciated and better understood, which is generally in person in real life. I love to communicate thoughts in writing, but this is not the place for me to find satisfaction on a relational level doing so. I have yet to feel even remotely understood or embraced here. It's a cold and sterile room. Yes, soulless. Enjoy it. You can have it back.

Over and out.

-S-

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Shaper
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Profile #44
Well, see, I talk to a lot of would-be scientists here, and people whose god is clearly science, and I can frequently only describe them as virtually soulless. A subjective observation? Yes. But an honest one in comparison to many other types of people I have known in some capacity in just the online world alone. It is not of course that they have no soul. They just seem significantly out of touch with anything resembling one. All of this has nothing to do with "how science works." And your oblivion to the plight of the male world or what women experience within it is irrelevant to whether it is an actual phenomenon and experience which both men and women suffer. It exists in any field. Spoken like a true clueless white male, though, Alo. "There is no problem."

Since you are not a woman, have never been a woman, and seem to be pretty much entirely disconnected from how women work, I'd appreciate it if you would stop ignorantly speaking on behalf of what they are experiencing.

-S-

[ Saturday, December 22, 2007 09:39: Message edited by: Synergy ]

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Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00
Bipolar in General
Shaper
Member # 6292
Profile #42
quote:
Originally written by Thuryl:

2/3 of new biologists are female. This is not a gender issue, however much you might like it to be.
Like and dislike have nothing to do with it. I observe. And I observe that we now, in a time of finally examining and redefining gender roles, are inducting women into the horrors that we once relegated largely to the soulless roles for men. Some women have bought into this lie to embrace it, and suffer accordingly. I don't mean by choosing to work in science. I mean by adopting the disconnect from the soul, when it is required for them to play ball in a man's world.

I haven't seen the satisfaction of women in the world increasing merely because they now have the option to adopt the typically hollow roles men have filled of finding self identity in work, and safety in their heads. In a sense, women are selling their souls to the devil to do what men have done. The brave ones are entering men's worlds and setting new examples for roles, and not bowing down to that which does not work to create the world we claim we want, and robs one of life. Many or most women I daresay are never yet really afforded the privilege. They may have gained admittance, but they may have to "become men" to do it.

It will take more time to erode the juggernaut of male role model conceit in the world. The one that worships the head to the exclusion of everything else that actually gives life color, heart, and joy. The one that has long been suspicious and denigrating of women, who more than anything represent to them that unquantifiable and unstrustworthy thing called intuition and feeling. The spirit of discrimination that we readily point to in religions is just as alive and well in the "secular" world. The bias is just more subtle and institutionalized.

All that said, I see this as a grand time of the failure and ongoing dissolution of much that has not worked for us. Enough of us have become fed up enough. Morever, we are facing crises that require us to get in gear or perish, and I believe we shall. We cannot do business as usual any longer. I think it's a great time to be alive. Exciting.

quote:
I don't see you bringing about world peace either. Just because science can't solve a problem, doesn't mean something else can.
You don't see me at all, so I find the comment irrelevant. You have no idea what I do, or what effect on any lives I may have by what I am being or doing. I have a definite and joyful philosophy on what does actually and ultimately create world peace, and I am spending my life seeking to hone it, practice it, perfect it, demonstrate it, be it. I look forward to experiencing the ongoing outplay of my choices. That which works I strengthen. That which does not I seek to alter or discard. It's okay to be "wrong." it's instrumental to finding out what does work.

In a man's world, it is essentially not okay to be "wrong." To be so or to admit to being so is taken as a sign of vulnerability, and men have convinced themselves that it is a dog eat dog world with survival of the fittest as the rule. As you believe, so do you make your reality. Happy lot we are for adopting that vision of ourselves, aren't we. Since Darwin, we have enjoyed two very lovely world wars wholly unprecedented prior in millennia of history. As we sow we reap. As we believe, we experience.

Problems are solved as soon as we are ready to do what it takes to actually solve them. The first thing we have to admit is our paradigms have been wrong. This we are incredibly and foolishly unwilling to consider for millennia on end. It utterly amazes me how stubbornly and fearfully unable we are to face that what we believe and what we do is not working for us. We keep hammering about in the same broken assumptions. We have to see all ourselves as accountable for having created the world and the issues we inhabit. Every one of us. There is only one of us.

-S-

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