The Fall of the Cryoan Empire

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Author	Topic: The Fall of the Cryoan Empire
Slarty Raven v. Writing Desk Member # 261	written Thursday, November 30 2006 21:14 Profile Homepage #25 quote: Originally written by Randomizer: While they all have the same initial endurance the fighting classes should get more health per level than the shaping. I checked and a sevile starts with 50% health at base and has a better multiplier so it adds up quickly. See Classes. The base stats are misleading, because each class gets HP (and Energy, and Essence) bonuses that are independent of level and class multiplier and Int/End. All classes get a flat 10 Essence to start with, but for HP they are different. Serviles get 30, and Lifecrafters get 20. The relative difference for points from levels and Endurance is about 10 for Serviles vs 7 for Lifecrafters. It might seem like 50% because you put more points there for your Servile. However, that's because you put more points there. quote: It adds up since you need skill points for intelligence and shaping that a servile will use to get a 400+ health by chapter 4 with augmentation and essence armor. As SoT commented, what matters is how you use it and whether it's needed. If a Lifecrafter can get along without 400 health, it's not a disadvantage. But again, if your Servile has 400 health your Lifecrafter can certainly have 250. Given the lack of need to pump shaping I don't see why a Lifecrafter would have fewer skill points to blow on HP than a Servile would. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 \| Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Synergy Shaper Member # 6292	written Thursday, November 30 2006 21:16 Profile #26 Happy 900th, Vlish. I also wanted to add that in my experience, it was the Infiltrator who felt most powerful to me, with strong magic and average battle skills. I don't know what all the numbers say, but I think magic is the most powerful force in the game overall, and melee is next. Either combination of those two in the top two work especially well together, but somehow, the stronger magic of the Infiltrator felt more effective and satisfying to me overlall than the slightly stronger battle ability of the Servile. Why? Maybe it's because a Servile can only hit one thing at a time with what it does best. I think it is also because fairly low numbers in several Battle categories are effective. I have rarely missed hitting a thing with sword or missile in any game except with nearly wholly unboosted base numbers. Shock Troopers and Warriors...not sure what the appeal would be, but I do like the somewhat maligned Infiltrator quite well. I think a Magic/Shaping build (the missing sixth) would have been sickly powerful in its own right too, because again here, magic gives most bang for buck, and it doesn't take tons of shaping discount to make powerful builds effectively. -S- -------------------- A4 Items • A4 Singleton • G4 Items • G4 Forging • G4 Infiltrator • NR Items • The Lonely Celt Posts: 2009 \| Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00
Slarty Raven v. Writing Desk Member # 261	written Thursday, November 30 2006 21:16 Profile Homepage #27 quote: —Alorael, who thinks perhaps the problem is different lifecrafter builds. Since you really don't need so much shaping, especially at high levels, why are the lifecrafters turning into glass cannons (or maybe glass leash holders)? The skills that really help you not die (as opposed to kill things with a sword) are no harder for lifecrafters than serviles. Quoted for emphasis! This is what I should have said in fewer words. Listen to Alorael. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 \| Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Slarty Raven v. Writing Desk Member # 261	written Thursday, November 30 2006 21:23 Profile Homepage #28 quote: Originally written by Servile Synergy: the stronger magic of the Infiltrator felt more effective and satisfying to me overlall than the slightly stronger battle ability of the Servile AUGGHH so misleading! The Infiltrator's magic bonus boils down to about +4 levels of damage/duration/etc per spell compared to a Servile. This is not that big. The Servile's melee bonus over an Infiltrator is quite huge though, including +5 or so in Quick Action and Parry and the HP bonus. Actually, what makes an Infiltrator tempting to ME is the better essence -- 7/8, halfway between 6/8 servile and 8/8 lifecrafter. But I think the other two classes are still better. quote: Originally written by Servile Synergy: I think it is also because fairly low numbers in several Battle categories are effective. This is actually a much-ignored point that is worth paying attention to. Melee weapons get high base bonuses from the weapons themselves late in the game. +20 for the Puresteel Broadsword. Spells never get ANY base bonuses outside of your knowledge of the spell. So Aura of Flames gets Up to Spellcraft + Battle Magic + 3, while melee attacks get up to Str + Melee Weapons + 20. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 \| Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Synergy Shaper Member # 6292	written Thursday, November 30 2006 21:35 Profile #29 Well, like I said, my comment on the Infiltrator was based on my experience playing each role all the way through. It's a subjective experience and not an objective quantification, and it's subject to some skew in my playing style I am not aware of. But the fact that I played the Servile most recently, after knowing all the better how to optimize the game doesn't suggest to me it has any really observable gross advantage when it comes down to the actual gameplay. I'd be curious to hear how others feel when they have tried both, to compare, and if they can really even practically tell the difference. I was expecting the Servile to feel even more deadly than my Infiltrator had, and it really didn't. Maybe the most significant point made in this thread so far is that there really isn't large difference from class to class, unless you compare Servile to Lifecrafter. So, after a good four full games and numerous more partial games, I find keeping up with Leadership and Mechanics appropriate to where you are in the game is what pays off in fun in efficiency all the way through. I haven't experienced any tremendous advantage by sacrificing those early on and rushing to buff something else extensively. -S- P.S. The extra essence and greater ability to use more magic alongside perfectly capable melee may be what chalks up for me as a more potent experience in my recollection. The extra essence also means more/more powerful creations when you need them. I had an eyebeast and Drakon alongside my Infiltrator at the end. [ Thursday, November 30, 2006 21:45: Message edited by: Servile Synergy ] -------------------- A4 Items • A4 Singleton • G4 Items • G4 Forging • G4 Infiltrator • NR Items • The Lonely Celt Posts: 2009 \| Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00
Randomizer Law Bringer Member # 6785	written Thursday, November 30 2006 22:00 Profile #30 Actually a more Nethergate style where each class starts off not being able to do something would increase differentiation. All the classes start out being able to fight quite effectively against most of the monsters in Chapter 1 without increasing starting abilities. It's just that the differences aren't as striking as in the earlier games. Since Jeff revised shaping skills so all the classes start off with greater abilities and it takes less shaping skill to get tier 4 and 5 level creations, it's now easier for everyone to make powerful creations. The early betas made lifecrafters and shock troopers powerful since they could get the powerful creations that the others couldn't get without sacrificing their own special abilities. With the right equipment you don't even really need to spend skill points to make the better creations. There needs to be a bit more rebalancing in the game so each class has something special. The AI still goes after the last creation or character that attacks before its move so being an attacker as a low health character is sometimes fatal. [ Friday, December 01, 2006 04:24: Message edited by: Randomizer ] Posts: 4643 \| Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00
Khoth Post Navel Trauma ^_^ Member # 67	written Thursday, November 30 2006 23:31 Profile Homepage #31 quote: Originally written by Delicious Vlish: when your lifecrafter poofs off that burst of aura of flames or an acid shower, many angry creatures are going to come a howling for his blood. Doctor, it hurts when I do this. -------------------- Barcoorah: I even did it to a big dorset ram. New Mac BoE Posts: 1798 \| Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00
Student of Trinity Electric Sheep One Member # 3431	written Friday, December 1 2006 07:13 Profile #32 So don't do that. Precisely. Lifecrafters don't need the battle magic. They need good buffing and healing, to pump up the team before sending them out, then to play combat medic when they get hurt. When your Rotghroths are going toe-to-toe with comparable enemies, it's your Lifecrafter firing Major Heal from around the corner that makes the battle a sure thing. And the converse of DV's point is that if your PC doesn't do any damage to the enemies, they do not seem to come hunting for him much at all. You can heal and buff without line of sight. Your Lifecrafter can also spare a few points for Endurance and Strength to carry armor, so he can survive coming out into the open in the late stages of a battle, when the enemies are thinned out and pinned down. Mental Magic and Missile support are also options that would probably work very well. Keeping up enough missile skill to finish off the wounded, for instance, can be very handy. But just pumping Intelligence like crazy, to have a really big horde, is dandy. I'd accept the view that Lifecrafter and Servile are pretty balanced. And I don't think Infiltrators are in any bad way, really. Mine wasn't ideal because she was mostly built before the Great Change. Significantly more Mental Magic would have made her much stronger. I never tried Warrior or Shock Trooper, but I would think that if Servile and Lifecrafter both work well, then some sort of average between them ought to be just as good. I would think we have more of a long couch than a pair of stools. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 \| Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Slarty Raven v. Writing Desk Member # 261	written Friday, December 1 2006 07:51 Profile Homepage #33 Unfortunately, Shock Troopers and Warriors are just worse, albeit minutely. Given that a shaping style character shouldn't be meleeing, the Shock Trooper is basically a Lifecrafter with worse magic, but slightly better HP and Parry. However, unless you regularly pump shaper Endurance much above 8, the HP difference is worth about 1 point of Endurance, whereas the magic difference is worth about 4 points (taking Spellcraft into account). Lifecrafter wins. If we use the paradigm that pumping shaping skills is not worthwhile, the Warrior has no advantages whatsoever over the Servile, but he gets the same -4 in magic and loses 1/3 of his spell energy. Bzzt! Servile wins. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 \| Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Or else o'erleap. Law Bringer Member # 335	written Friday, December 1 2006 08:47 Profile Homepage #34 I think the key is that you absolutely need magic. I have no objection to getting better shaping from a warrior, but the loss of magic hurts a lot. —Alorael, who should play as a lifecrafter again to decide whether it's more fun (not more optimal) to regularly get your creations killed in huge battles and then nonchalantly replace them. You lose a few creation levels but also a few levels of stress. That character is also a shoe-in as a Shaper. Posts: 14579 \| Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Randomizer Law Bringer Member # 6785	written Friday, December 1 2006 19:31 Profile #35 Whatever you play you need to pump up mental magic to get all the spells. This is the one spell category that you need to deal with the big fights. It helps to have a creation in certain fights. With the right items you can delay until after chapter 3 making a creation like in Sandros Mines expert area on the way to the Forgotten One. With the changes in making creations between the early betas and the final version, making a powerful creation is easier for all the classes. This reduces the advantage that lifecrafters had and made shapers so powerful in the earlier games. Posts: 4643 \| Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00