Script question about Creations

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AuthorTopic: Script question about Creations
Warrior
Member # 2156
Profile #0
So, after reading through the messages it seems clear that Battle creations are still insta-nerfed. Since I'm tired of waiting for a Geneforge game that fixes this, and also I personally think that in a world like GF even with the shapers ruling everything with iron-fists there would be...hundreds of different creations, not just a handful....

Where in the scripts are the creations listed, and what would it take to modify/add to them? I really enjoy modding games, and this sounds like a fun use of my free time. Plus just once I want Battle creations to be worth speccing. If anyone could point me to the right files, and let me know what the image requirements are for critter portraits and such, that'd be nifty. Otherwise when I get bored playing I'll go digging through the files myself.

Oh, and if the actual critter stats are only accessible in the main game file itself...well then poo. ;)

[ Wednesday, May 16, 2007 03:45: Message edited by: DevilinDupriest ]

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I am the power Sodom used on Lot...

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Posts: 50 | Registered: Saturday, October 26 2002 07:00
Apprentice
Member # 3568
Profile #1
I believe that it's in:
gf4itemschars.txt

Oh, also, gf4itemschars.txt has various weapons ("abilities") defined in it. If you look in
gf4objsmisc.txt

You should see definitions for those abilities, if you just want to up the damage for battle creations.

Personally, I think battle creations should have resistances, and be better meat shields, rather than dishing out more punishment.

[ Wednesday, May 16, 2007 03:02: Message edited by: DrPraetorious ]
Posts: 19 | Registered: Saturday, October 18 2003 07:00
Warrior
Member # 2156
Profile #2
Cool, thanks. Personally, I agree with you mostly, but I think that Battle Betas should get a little bit of that Rotgoth double-hit love. Also there should be at least 1 high-end Battle creation that can really dish some damage. As it is they're all kinda blah. Especially since I just plain don't like Rots. I use them. I just don't like them.

ETA:
I'm also thinking about giving Ur-glaahks back their stun, and plated bugs their poison. No sense in nerfing either of them like that, it's not like they're really that useful in the long run anyway.

ETAA(gain):
Argh. My eyes. =p I take it easy to read and annotated weren't high priorities for those files...

[ Wednesday, May 16, 2007 03:56: Message edited by: DevilinDupriest ]

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I am the power Sodom used on Lot...

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Posts: 50 | Registered: Saturday, October 26 2002 07:00
His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
Profile #3
I dunno. I have walked through the game using nothing but battle creations, as a recreation of my infamous Goon Squad™. I've done it in each and every Geneforge game so far.

They have some shortcomings, but are perfectly workable. Even Tralls can be quite good, provided that you know what you are doing.

Single most important aspect in a Goon Squad™, numbers. If you have an open roster slot, you are doing something wrong. Enemies should be swarmed and pounded under a flurry of punches, pinches, stings, and or hurled rocks. Never underestimate the tender loving care that 4 or so battle betas are capable of, even on torment. Plated bugs are excellent shock troops, especially when hasted.

Disposable Thahds are actually good for a Goon Squad™.

Especially fun if you give your pc and all your pets Mafioso names.

"Vinnie... Guido... Go break this bum's legs and teach him some manners."

"Alwan, tonight, you sleep with the genetically modified fishes."

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If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish.

Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish.
Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00
Warrior
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Profile #4
I've done it in every GF so far, too. =) I just can't pass up plated bugs. I love them so much. I generally hold on to them till they're back down to doing so little damage against enemies that it makes me want to cry. It's not like there's really all to many fights that can't be won by properly blessed Rots, I just wish there was some point where battle creations felt as...uber as magic or fire.
"Hi, I'm an Ur-Drakon. I breathe flame, although only against one opponent at a time now."
Neat!
"I'm an Eye-beast, I zorch everything in sight."
Whoa, cool!
"I'm...a mishapen blob of acidy-flesh in the form of a man..."
Ummm....I'm sorry to hear that...do..do you have a cup for me to put change in...?

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I am the power Sodom used on Lot...

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Posts: 50 | Registered: Saturday, October 26 2002 07:00
His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
Profile #5
That last line should read "We are Legion. We are many. EAT ROCKS!"

Goon Squads are all about the toods.

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If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish.

Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish.
Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00
Raven v. Writing Desk
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I made a modified defintions file like that for G3. It was fairly extensive, making numerous minor tweaks to creations, spells, and items to balance things. (G3 was much less balanced than G4.) It even included a symbiotic vlish arm melee weapon in honor of DV, which I believe I replaced Koerner's Blade with. Unfortunately, the computer died before I got around to uploading it.

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Warrior
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Ah, then you might know, is there any easy way to read the definition files? Thats a lot of uncommented text with no line breaks...

Also, can you point me to which ones are the ones that actually affect the pc-created critters? I'm assuming it's the ones that say pc-created, but there doesn't seem to be enough of those to equal one for each type of critter.

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Posts: 50 | Registered: Saturday, October 26 2002 07:00
Raven v. Writing Desk
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No line breaks? What do you mean? There are line breaks after every line. If you aren't seeing line breaks the problem is with your text editor.

Although there are no real comments, the definitions format and the names of the variables involved are all very simple to understand.

I don't know for sure which creature definition is which, but it's usually easy to guess. If there isn't one labelled as PC-created creations, it's probably the first definition. Just look for one that has the appropriate starting level (which is not multiplied by a fraction in G4) and stat bonuses and so on. Note that some differences between PC creations and NPCs are hardcoded in the game, so don't rely on those. For example, PC creations never drop items even though every possible definition includes item drops (I think Gazers are like that).

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
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I personally think it would be great if a veteran created a mod for GF4 which:

a. Fixed up a couple of bugs observed in the creations (failure of creation strength item boosts to be taken into account, a lack of Ur-Glaahk stunning, and a lack of plated bug poison).

b. Give an optional component, where the user could overwrite some of the crappy new creations (ie. Unstable Thahd, Plated Artila, Corrupted Vlish), with the creations from a previous GF. I miss Searing Artilas, Thahd Shades, and Terror Vlish :(

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VIVE LA TAKERS!
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Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
Warrior
Member # 2156
Profile #10
quote:
Originally written by Yama:

No line breaks? What do you mean? There are line breaks after every line. If you aren't seeing line breaks the problem is with your text editor.

Could be, I opened it up in notepad originally and everything was pretty much smushed together. Although as I recall it did have the // line breaks showing. I'll try Word. Thanks for your help, I'll hopefully get around to actually doing some work on it sometime in the next week or two.

Incidently, I'm getting the impression from various posts that it isn't possible to add completely new creations, just tweak/change the existing slots, is that true?

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I am the power Sodom used on Lot...

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Posts: 50 | Registered: Saturday, October 26 2002 07:00
Raven v. Writing Desk
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Profile Homepage #11
Yeah. All the creation/item/floor/attack characteristics are in those definition files, but everything else is hardcoded. So you can't add creation types, change the maps or the locations of characters and items, etc.

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Warrior
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Bleah, well, that's irritating. Have to wait for Blades of Geneforge then to make a really huge bunch of critters.

In the meantime, let's discuss what changes we think are appropriate.

First off, I'm going to come right out and say it: As much as I liked Thad Shades, I also did not like them. So I'm okay with the Unstable Thad.

That said, things I *do* think need changing:

Ur-Ghlaak get their stun back. They're not my thing, but I don't see why they shouldn't have it.

Plated Clawbug gets poison attack. Also maybe a touch more resistance, although that's probably unbalancing in combination with their extra ap.

War Traal...I like the basic concept of a truly high end Battle creation that isn't the rot. Trolls was a good basis for them. That said...this guy isn't it. Thrown rocks just aren't that cool. Plus, their damage is kinda nerf. =p Frankly, I would make these guys a truly massive meat shield/melee monster and nothing else. No double-strike, no extra AP (in fact, maybe less...a really slow 5 AP creation sort of makes sense with the new AP system...), just one really big punch and a lot of HP to get it there.

Battle Alpha/Beta: Personally I think these guys should get a minor buff. A small amount of the Rots double-striking maybe, plus slightly higher damage. Given that pretty much *everything* but Battle creations either has ranged attack or some other special ability to their attack, BC's should at least be stronger. But they're just not.

Thads: What gooning is really all about. I think Thads are great, my first character in every GF since GF 1 has always been named Thad Diesel and made it through at least half the game on nothing but Thad power. Eventually they just can't keep up though. =<

Charged Vlish: Ehh...I like it, but not as the only variant I can make.

You know what I'd really like to be able to do is introduce *all* of the variants, instead of only having 1 variant per species.

Well, that and create whole new species. It's not just me, is it? I mean, seriously, I could go to *town* if they had some sort of point-buy build system to design critters with that allowed me to mod them into the game. Point-buy=maintain some sort of balance + modding=teh winz. It just makes so much sense to me.

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I am the power Sodom used on Lot...

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Posts: 50 | Registered: Saturday, October 26 2002 07:00
Warrior
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Profile #13
Interesting. Plated clawbugs appear to have an ability that was commented out:

//cr_natural_armor = 8;

I'm gonna turn it back on and see what happens. If the game crashes every time I summon one, I'll have this note to remind me to comment it back out. =)

Also, their attack ability level was set at 0...however, since I'm not exactly sure how attack ability level truly affects things (I think it affects the percentage change of special effects...not sure..it might be what gets multiplied for the effect_per_level string from objmisc though) I just went ahead and cut and pasted the clawbug attack ability whole clothe.

Interestingly, I can't see any reason the ur-glaahk didn't have stun when the glaahk does. If this works the way I think it should, since it shows no attack ability, it should have inherieted the base critters attack. Hrrrm. Well, took care of that one too. Maybe. I'll have to reroll with a trainer to test.

A *lot* of the second level critters, at least the early ones, have zero difference except for their base level and max health (although I'm not absolutely sure that max health means what it sounds like). I was expecting at least some changes in resistance level.

Hmm. The 'charged' variants seems to be handled internally, so I can't edit those out into something else. Alas.

Hehe. Alwan and Greta's attack upgrades are still listed in the objmisc file, just commented out. I'm tempted to reassign them to different slots and use them.

HMmm:

cr_abil_step_of_launch

Just an educated guess, but that's to determine at what point in the animation the damage is 'delivered'? Otherwise I can't figure out what could be affected from the itemschar file that might apply to. Anyone know? Eh. I'm not going to mess with it.

Gazer has three different attack abilities? Did I miss a memo somewhere?

Well, I think I'm going to test what I have so far, the plated bug, Ur-Glaahk, and War Trall.

I'm not sure exactly where the Rot's double-strike is handled. It may be internal.

Likewise, before I can really play with this stuff, I'm going to have to sit down and map out what all of the 1-22 CR_statistics are for critters, and which status_effect goes with which number. Since I can't really add new critters whole clothe, I may simply leave it at this. If so, once I've tested it, I'll post it here.

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I am the power Sodom used on Lot...

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Posts: 50 | Registered: Saturday, October 26 2002 07:00
Warrior
Member # 2156
Profile #14
Okay, first note:

CR_Natural_Armor:

*Impressively* broken. As in character images spazzing out then game crashingly broken. Although to be fair, that may just be how the game responds to *any* unidentifiable command line. In which case you need to be awfully careful modifying, because one unclosed line=hours of hunting for where you forgot to put a ;

ETA:

Some more notes, for others:

Damage type
0=physical
1=magic
2=fire
3=ability 25 disruption?
4=poison
5=Acid?
6=Cold
7=Golem is practically immune?

CR_Statistics (I haven't tried to figure these out, yet. I think the first few are the physical stats, although I don't know if this is a straight bonus, a straight replacement, or a level multiplier, or what)
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
22

ETAA(gain):

And of course, shortly after mentioning just that, I forget to close a tag and spend an hour hunting it down...=p

[ Thursday, May 17, 2007 22:52: Message edited by: DevilinDupriest ]

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I am the power Sodom used on Lot...

Name the movie, win a prize.
Posts: 50 | Registered: Saturday, October 26 2002 07:00
Warrior
Member # 2156
Profile #15
Well, this was irritating. =) Not a lot accomplished either, but here's version .05 of my modded monsters:

http://www.filefactory.com/file/b16672/

http://www.filefactory.com/file/f7e330/

I also apologize about filefactory. Just stick with it, you'll get to the actual download link eventually. As a hint, the download option is generally somewhere in the middle of all the ads. =p

Anyway, basically it's the usual drill, download the two of 'em, make a back up copy of your copies, then put those two in your script folder.

Here's basically what I did:

Thahd:
Slightly higher damage, but not much

plated bug:

slightly higher phys def, and some fire and acid res, added poison back, then improved it's

poison attack. Freely admit that this makes it slightly overpowered for it's tier. Don't care.

=)

Charged Vlish:
The new charged vlish is a real fan favorite! Maybe that's why they go so quickly.

Ur-Glaahk:
added stun back

Battle Alpha:
slightly higher health and damage (I think...if it works the way I think it does)

War Trall:
Made a pure melee monster. If I was really into this, I'd make a new character model for him.

Currently balance testing.

Shock Trall:
Very little change, just editted so his thrown attack was fixed. Was going to make this one the

'ranged' version of the new war trall, but since I cannot edit out the 'charged' state I skipped

it.

Other 1 and 2:
???

I don't think I'm going to do any more, really. If I could actually add content that'd be one thing, but mostly I think I've succeeded in fixing one or two things, and breaking just as many others.

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I am the power Sodom used on Lot...

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Posts: 50 | Registered: Saturday, October 26 2002 07:00
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #16
quote:
Originally written by DevilinDupriest:

Interesting. Plated clawbugs appear to have an ability that was commented out:

//cr_natural_armor = 8;

This is how Geneforge 1 dealt with NPC and creation armor. Geneforge 2+ use resistance 0 for armor. I would guess that cr_natural_armor no longer has any effect, but it's possible the code for it is still there. However, I'd recommend just using resistance 0 instead.

quote:
Also, their attack ability level was set at 0...however, since I'm not exactly sure how attack ability level truly affects things (I think it affects the percentage change of special effects...not sure..it might be what gets multiplied for the effect_per_level string from objmisc though) I just went ahead and cut and pasted the clawbug attack ability whole clothe.
Not quite. Attack ability level is the equivalent of a weapon level or spell skill level. The basic formula for the power and accuracy of ANY attack is:

(Base Stat) + (Skill Stat) + (Specific Stat)

Base Stat = Strength, Dexterity, or Spellcraft
Skill Stat = Melee Weapons, Missile Weapons, Battle Magic, Mental Magic, Blessing Magic, or Healing Craft
Specific Stat = Attack ability level, item level, or spell skill level

Each level in this formula grants you one die roll (which die is used depends on the attack) and a 5% bonus to hit. Each attack also has base damage that is added (usually miniscule) and a base chance to hit (normally between 50% and 100%). Also the "+X levels to damage" ability adds die rolls, but not hit chance. Luck adds to hit chance at 2% a pop, but not damage.

Strength of ancillary effects is determined similarly, using the "effect_" part of the attack definition.

quote:
Interestingly, I can't see any reason the ur-glaahk didn't have stun when the glaahk does.

Are you sure the Ur-Glaahk doesn't have a stunning attack? You're right, the definitions file gives it exactly the same attack as the Glaahk.

[quote]Hehe. Alwan and Greta's attack upgrades are still listed in the objmisc file, just commented out. I'm tempted to reassign them to different slots and use them.[/quote]SW games tend to not delete old material if it isn't necessary to. Most famously, a few dialogue panes from Exile II have been in nearly every SW release since then, hiding unused.

quote:
I'm not sure exactly where the Rot's double-strike is handled. It may be internal.
It's handled with Quick Action just like for every other character. I forget what stat number QA is, but the rot has it, I believe 6 or 8 points, which is roughly a 1/3 chance of a second strike.

Damage type 3 is used only (AFIAK) by the Discipline Wand. It needs its own damage type since it only harms creations.

Damage type 7 is mental. Note that all the 4th and 5th tier creations have heavy resistance to it, as well as every boss type character.

The creation statistics, which work the same way as item stat bonuses, are listed out somewhere in the G or G4 forum, I think. They mostly go in the order on the character sheet, but there are a few exceptions. So 0-3 are Str Dex Int End.

IMHO, G4 is on the whole pretty decently balanced, and I don't think it's crying out for a mod. But hey, go for it. If nothing else you could make Battle Shaping worthwhile for the first time ever.

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
...b10010b...
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quote:
Originally written by Yama:

IMHO, G4 is on the whole pretty decently balanced, and I don't think it's crying out for a mod. But hey, go for it. If nothing else you could make Battle Shaping worthwhile for the first time ever.
Although I'd be impressed if you could do that without making every place in the game where battle creations swarm you horribly fatal.

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The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Warrior
Member # 2156
Profile #18
quote:
Originally written by Thuryl:

Although I'd be impressed if you could do that without making every place in the game where battle creations swarm you horribly fatal.
Well, that part is pretty easy. GF4 calls to a different entry for most hostile units. You just make sure that the hostile versions have the original stats, to avoid upsetting the intended game balance. Changing pc Battle creations is fixing the game balance for a single character type. If the changes were universal, then it would mess things up for all character types.

Incidently, I think I made pretty sure of this, for all creations except clawbugs. It's possible that clawbugs may all become the overpowered version I wrote, depending on whether the game checks the just previous entry in a critter species, or goes all the way to checking the first definition of the critter.

Hmm. Oh, and Thahds are bit stronger in my version, across the board...

Hmm, and Battle Alphas/etc have a bit more health and damage. But not a huge amount.

Basically, the clawbugs may be a problem, but the Thahds and Alphas are just a little dangerous now, instead of being upgraded rats/worms.

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I am the power Sodom used on Lot...

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Posts: 50 | Registered: Saturday, October 26 2002 07:00
His Mighty Tentacle
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Profile #19
I have ideas how battle creations could be vastly improved but it would make battle creations that you encounter much harder.

Very simple ideas.

Hominoid battle creations, such as thahds and the whole alphabet gang, should all be two fisted fighters. In one round, two attacks, one from each fist.

Bugs should cause paralysis. A very small chance for clawbugs. And they should deal extreme poison damage. The plated bugs should have a higher chance of paralysis, and deal acid damage with their sting. Paralysis wouldn't just be a stun effect, it would be stripping enemy action points down to zero.

Rotters should have an acidic vomit ability. The ability to projectile vomit blobs of acid at range. (Spray acid attack) The upgraded form should have burning flatulence. Hey, it is a corpse, remember? A cloud of acid effect. Also, they should have a revenge effect. Attacker takes acid damage on striking. To simulate the spattering that would happen when struck.

Tralls should have a spine effect... Natural spikes, and lots of them. Attacker takes heavy physical damage in return, and the damage would continue for several rounds to simulate the spines being lodged in their body. (think porcupine) Instead of rocks, tralls should be able to launch spines out of their body. These spines would do massive physical damage on the first round, and would continue to do damage over several rounds. Shock tralls would be much the same, only higher damage on the thorns return. Instead of a single spine, they would launch a nova of spines in all directions, striking everything around them with spines that would continue to do damage over several rounds.

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If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish.

Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish.
Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00
Raven v. Writing Desk
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Profile Homepage #20
It is worth pointing out that ALL melee attacks did nearly twice as much damage in G1 and G2. G3 reduced creation melee attacks from 1-8 dice to 1-4 dice.

It is true, though, that G4 has way more swarms of melee critters.

I'm not really sure what would make the best balancing factor, as it's a thin line to walk. I do think it would make the game a lot more interesting if melee and missile attacks both had strategic value, which would require making melee attacks a lot stronger to keep up with the missile attacks that ramp up to 1-12 and even 1-14 in the endgame. But increasing attack too much would be dangerous.

The other option is to increase HP, or resistances. But I fear that this would make battle creations annoying without actually making them interesting or valuable.

I like the double hit idea, and not in the form of Quick Action but in the form of bonus AP a la plated bugs. Battle creations with 10-11 AP then get a great increase in deadliness, but one that doesn't kick in until the turn after they reach their target. This makes them more dangerous as enemies, but they can be responded to before they kill things, and since their HP isn't getting bloated, they can still be dispatched with strong attacks, daze, and the like. It also makes them more useful as allies since it is easier for the player to manipulate how close they are to their target when combat starts.

I'd say Clawbugs, Battle Frat guys, Glaahks, Rots, and Tralls all deserve the extra AP. Give plated bugs high resistance. Give Thahds and Tralls additional HP. Give Alphas and Tralls some kind of neat ancillary effect. And let the Tralls have high Quick Action too. Why can't the biggest baddest battle creation be deadly close up?

The other thing this does is make stunning more useful, which is great in my book.

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
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His Mighty Tentacle
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Profile #21
Of course, the best way to make a trall more effective would be the ability to 'sacrifice' a baton by dropping it on to the character icon, allowing said creation to be 'armed' with it.

It would make fetching the reaper baton down where the Titan is both worthwhile and reasonable.

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If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish.

Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish.
Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00
Warrior
Member # 2156
Profile #22
Spines is a good idea. Likewise, I've been considering regeneration. Are their any enemies that anyone can think of that have built in spines? If so I'll go check their map files to see if it might be possible to borrow that ability.

I'm not sure about extra AP for battle-buddies. I mean, on the one hand I can see it, they're hard-charging sons of guns, but on the other hand, I'm a big fan of the 'big and slow' school of ham-fisted smackdownery.

Incidently, if anyone has played with the updated version I posted up there, lemme know what you think.

Also, does anyone know how the color_adjust works? I'm just kinda putting in numbers at random, currently.

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I am the power Sodom used on Lot...

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Posts: 50 | Registered: Saturday, October 26 2002 07:00
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quote:

their any enemies that anyone can think of that have built in spines?

The Thorny Artila from that place where you assist the scout to find the Shaper camp.

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VIVE LA TAKERS!
VIVE LA REBELLION!
VIVE LA GHALDRING!
Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
Warrior
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Profile #24
quote:
Originally written by Suspicious Vlish:

quote:

their any enemies that anyone can think of that have built in spines?

The Thorny Artila from that place where you assist the scout to find the Shaper camp.

Ah yes, I seem to recall that. I'll go take a look, thanks.

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I am the power Sodom used on Lot...

Name the movie, win a prize.
Posts: 50 | Registered: Saturday, October 26 2002 07:00

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