Trainer skill listing
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Thursday, December 22 2005 19:04
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I went and dug this up with a little cut-and-paste research. In case it's useful to someone else starting out, these seem to be the best training options. COTRA Arcane Lore @ 1000 (1000 ea) Spellcraft @ 2000 (666 ea) First Aid @ 800 (800 ea) Magery @ 1500 (375 ea?) DUVNO Nature Lore @ 1120 (1120 ea) SILVAR Melee, pole @ 1800 (450 ea) Hardiness @ 1800 (1800 ea) Defense @ 1800 (900 ea) Quick Strike @ 1800 (600 ea) Quick Action @ 1800 (1800 ea) Parry @ 1800 (? ea) Blademaster @ 1800 (600 ea?) ALMARIA Tool Use @ 2800 (2800 ea) CAMP SAMUELS Bows @ 960 (240 ea) Throws @ 800 (200 ea) Sharpshooter @ 800 (266 ea?) FORT REMOTE Resistance @ 1800 (? ea) Magical Efficiency @ 2400 (? ea) The per-point cost is really the important part, for any skills you would be training in anyway. I've heard there's less surplus gold in A4, so I'm trying to figure out the right balance to strike... Magery and Spellcraft are no-brainers. Bows and archery are no-brainers for anyone who's not a dedicated archer -- given their high value they are even tempting for a main archer. Melee is also tempting, and I think with the right combination of traits even doable. Defense, Parry, and Blademaster are probably doable as well. Quick Strike is a no-brainer, as is Resistance. Tool Use is useless, Quick Action and Hardiness are questionable at best. I'm not sure about the Lores and First Aid. Untrainable skills: Str/Dex/Int/End, Luck, Mage Spells, Priest Spells, Gymnastics Riposte, Anatomy, Lethal Blow have trainable prereqs -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Thursday, December 22 2005 19:15
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It's interesting how many skills are for sale in Almaria for prices much higher than are available in places that you reach sooner. Who would buy anything there? —Alorael, who also can't imagine getting to Almaria without putting enough points into Tool Use that you can't buy even that in Almaria. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Thursday, December 22 2005 20:55
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I don't remember the Silvar trainer training that many skills. Am I correct in assuming that a lot of the skills listed as being trainable in Silvar can only be trained in after you've killed the shade? [ Thursday, December 22, 2005 20:56: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Thursday, December 22 2005 21:01
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Thurly...Captain Call will train all this stuff, possibly minus Blademaster, Parry, and Quickstrike as soon as you get to him, assuming the shade is not in town when everyone is too afraid to deal with you. EDIT OUT: Ah, got it, Slarty is listing only the most cost-effective training locations. [ Thursday, December 22, 2005 21:03: Message edited by: Synergy ] -------------------- A4 Items • A4 Singleton • G4 Items • G4 Forging • G4 Infiltrator • NR Items • The Lonely Celt Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Thursday, December 22 2005 22:27
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quote:Yeah; I know he trains, but I don't remember him training Blademaster or Quick Strike, hence my question. By the way, who's the trainer in Fort Remote? I can't find him for the life of me. EDIT: Never mind, found him. [ Friday, December 23, 2005 00:39: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Friday, December 23 2005 00:32
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Captain Call will train Melee and Pole Weapons, Hardiness, Defense, and Quick Action for 2100, Bows for 1680, and Thrown Missiles for 1400 before you kill the shade. After you kill it his prices go from expensive to slightly expensive and he adds Blademaster, Parry, and Quick Strike. [Edit: Thompson, the Fort Remote trainer, is in a room just east of the hall north of the southwesternmost room in the fort. That's west of the room with the teleportation pylon, which is north of the potion lab, which is in the center of the southern side of the fort. Thompson may only appear once you're sent to Fort Remote by Houghton.] —Alorael, who doesn't think he noticed that the first time he played through A4. [ Friday, December 23, 2005 00:38: Message edited by: Xeno's Paragua ] Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Friday, December 23 2005 04:53
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One wee problem here that nobody else has seemed to notice. All this talk of buying training. Not bloody possible. As it is, you stay broke just saving up your coppers to buy spells and the occasional bit of training here and there. There is simply not enough gold available to do a game where you flat out depend on training in every little thing. I compulsively pick up and sell everything when I start heading back to town, picking up everything that might have dropped along the way, and even with me picking up things like javelins and sacks of meal to trade, I STAY BROKE. Heck, I even pick up and sell every last cotton picking little green crystals. There is no barter. Many items dropped are junk. I mean, it's going to take many thousands of gold pieces just to aquire basic skills, many of which are not available till the mid game or the end game. Sorry, but I simply do not see this working. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Friday, December 23 2005 05:13
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The number of spells you actually need to buy is surprisingly low. Looking at my spell list, the only spells I haven't found at least one level of at some point in the game are Spray Acid and Return Life. (I can tell this, because those are the only spells my fighter doesn't have on his list.) Moreover, the higher-level a spell was, the more likely I was to find a spellbook with it before finding a place to purchase it, so buying only the most absolutely essential spells and waiting for the rest isn't that much of an imposition. At one point, when I had a lazy 20,000 gold and nothing to do with it (around the time of the Fort Remote mission; lots of nice treasure there), I dropped it all into raising levels of spells that I already knew. If I'd had any skills that I was able and willing to train at the time, that 20 grand would have bought a lot of training. And if I get desperate for cash later down the line, I've got 5000 gold worth of energy and invulnerability potions that I've never used, plus a few thousand in herbs, fine steel, fine leather, gold bars, rubies and emeralds. I can always start selling those. So yeah, there's enough boodle to go around, as long as you don't compulsively buy everything that can be bought. [ Friday, December 23, 2005 05:19: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Friday, December 23 2005 05:18
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Yes, but two levels of a spell can add considerable damage. Case in point. Lightning Spray. One point, learned from the spell book behind Skunky Joe. (Who is now pukingly pink, argh) You get maybe 50 to 75 damage per shot. Buy two levels and that damage shoots up in to the hundreds. The heal all spell. One point learned from a book with get you maybe 20 to 30 points of healing for your group, which is sad and pathetic. Learn two levels and BAM! 100 point healings are now possible. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Friday, December 23 2005 05:21
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Eh, I'm unconvinced that the gains are that big. You're going to be raising other stats (Spellcraft, Magery) as you're raising spell levels, so that'll confound things. I'd be more impressed by results immediately before and immediately after raising spell levels, with spells used on the same monsters by the same character. Also, you have to question whether you actually need all those nifty boosts. I've used Mass Healing maybe 3 times in the whole game -- in general, one or two characters (usually my fighter) are taking all the hits, so it's more efficient to just use Minor Heal. A really powerful spell that you'll never need is still a spell that you'll never need. Part of this boils down to different strategies -- I hear a lot of people extolling the merits of Daze and Strong Daze, but I've simply never needed to use either of them, so I didn't waste my money. Know which spells you'll use and don't spend anything on the ones you won't. [ Friday, December 23, 2005 05:29: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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The Establishment
Member # 6
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written Friday, December 23 2005 06:06
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Mass healing 3 times, really? Wow, different playing strategies I guess. Money is not that short on supply if you want to take time lugging every piece of armor/weapon that your foes drop and selling them. I agree, increasing levels on higher level spells is not that much of a difference. Well, summoning spells might, but that's about all. -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Friday, December 23 2005 06:16
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Daze and Strong Daze suck. Sorry. Daze fizzles out early. Highly unreliable. And it's a long wait to Strong Daze. And then that fizzles out quickly too. Plus, you can't daze pylons. That said... When I make a mage, a role play a mage. And my mages are not happy till they have every spell completely cranked to show mastery as an Archmage. Sigh. Stupid role playing keeps getting in the way of being munchkin. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Friday, December 23 2005 06:49
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Cranking every spell to the max may not be min/maxing, but your mages certainly sound a little bit munchkin themselves :) ...anyway, isn't the whole point of Torment that you HAVE to try and optimize as much as possible? If I were really going for RP I think I'd have to start pulling out the disadvantages. Brittle Bones = golden RP opportunity. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Friday, December 23 2005 06:53
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quote:Well duh... It is every mage's desire to be munchkin, the whole thirst for power thing. Just look at Erika... A red mage. Coinkidinky? I think not. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Friday, December 23 2005 07:08
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I dunno, Erika's obsession with revenge isn't very munchkinny. She's too involved in things. You want munchkin, I think Garzahd is a better example, plating himself up the way he did. I am always tempted to play these games without ever reloading saves when something bad happens. That increases the challenge quite a bit, and suddenly all those magical items that never seemed useful become life-savers. And it really reduces the munchkin factor: Red Mage: "Given that I can only cast a certain number of spells per day, if I were to cast one now I would then become less versatile." Black Mage: "If you don't cast one now, then you'll become less alive." -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Friday, December 23 2005 12:54
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Think opportunity cost. There are a few spells for which buying levels is helpful. Minor Heal, Curing, Bolt of Fire, and all the other low level ones spring to mind because I use them all the time to the end of the game. For the rest, I'd really rather have more skills. There weren't spells I used frequently enough to merit the large cost for modest increases in power. —Alorael, who isn't sure what kind of roleplaying justifies suboptimal choices. If you're going to be risking life and limb for Avernum, you're going to want to minimize risks as much as possible! (Roleplaying justifies munchkining, QED.) Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 5814
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written Friday, December 23 2005 14:23
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quote:Nuklearpower is awesome. -------------------- quote: Posts: 1115 | Registered: Sunday, May 15 2005 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Friday, December 23 2005 14:42
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quote:I managed to win Angband after several attempts over the course of a month or two. It's a frustrating experience, and after proving to myself that it's possible, I'm not particularly inclined to play in that style again for a while. :P -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Friday, December 23 2005 16:18
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*nod* Playing Angband that way doesn't really bother me -- you just have to learn to be cautious. For the majority of the game, keeping the right items on hand (2 Staffs of Teleportation and a big pile of Cure Critical Wounds potions) will do it. Playing Avernum that way would be a lot harder. The auto-resurrect helps a lot, and maybe it could be done on Easy. But without some kind of teleportation ability, it's too easy to get into an unexpectedly bad, and unescapable situation -- and unlike Angband you can't really boost your power level without progressing further into the game. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Friday, December 23 2005 16:50
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It's possible to play Spiderweb games without reloading when bad things happen, but it's probably less possible than in Angband to play without ever getting wiped out. What always stands out in my mind is the hole in the former nephil castle in E2 where you can get a party member killed instantly. Things like that are part of life in reload land. —Alorael, who is a firm believer in playing Angband by reaching level 50 without venturing more than 50 feet down. Not literally, of course, but in spirit. That and a lot of time spent in vault territory with teleport other handy will get you Ringil, a pile of life potions, and the courage to venture all the way to the botom. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Friday, December 23 2005 17:05
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The other option I've considered is to only allow myself saves in friendly territory, much like some console RPGs. That way I can still reset if I need to, but I can't (not efficiently anyway) force a battle to go well by reloading when it doesn't. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 6706
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written Wednesday, January 18 2006 09:03
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Regarding question marks in first post: Magery has a base skill point cost of 4 so 375 is correct. Parry has a base skill point cost of 3 so should be 600 ea. Sharpshooter has a base skill point cost of 4 so should be 200 ea. Resistance has a base skill point cost of 5 so should be 360 ea. Magical Efficiency has a base skill point cost of 4 so should be 600 ea. In addition, Bows and Thrown Weapons have a base skill point cost of only 2, so they should be 480 ea and 400 ea respectively. Melee Weapons: 1,800 gp in Silvar (450 gp per skill point saved) Pole Weapons: 1,800 gp in Silvar (450 gp per skill point saved) Bows: 960 gp at Camp Samuels (480 gp per skill point saved) Thrown Weapons: 800 gp at Camp Samuels (400 gp per skill point saved) Quick Action: 1,800 gp in Silvar (1,800 gp per skill point saved) Mage Spells: No trainer Priest Spells: No trainer Arcane Lore: 1,000 gp in Cotra (1,000 gp per skill point saved) Spellcraft: 2,000 gp in Cotra (667 gp per skill point saved) Hardiness: 1,800 gp in Silvar (1,800 gp per skill point saved) Defense: 1,800 gp in Silvar (900 gp per skill point saved) Tool Use: 2,800 gp in Almaria (2,800 gp per skill point saved) Nature Lore: 1,120 gp in Duvno (1,120 gp per skill point saved) First Aid: 800 gp in Cotra (800 gp per skill point saved) Luck: No trainer Quick Strike: 1,800 gp in Silvar (600 gp per skill point saved) Parry: 1,800 gp in Silvar (600 gp per skill point saved) Blademaster: 1,800 gp in Silvar (360 gp per skill point saved) Anatomy: No trainer Gymnastics: No trainer Magery: 1,500 gp in Cotra (375 gp per skill point saved) Resistance: 1,800 gp at Fort Remote (360 gp per skill point saved) Magical Efficiency: 2,400 gp at Fort Remote (600 gp per skill point saved) Lethal Blow: No trainer Riposte: No trainer Sharpshooter: 800 gp at Camp Samuels (200 gp per skill point saved) Posts: 1 | Registered: Wednesday, January 18 2006 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 6632
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written Wednesday, January 18 2006 13:12
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Is the restriction from geneforce 2, where you can only train in skills you have not increased with skill points or quest bonuses, still in? I'm guessing (and hoping) not. Posts: 50 | Registered: Monday, January 2 2006 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Wednesday, January 18 2006 14:06
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Quest-related bonuses to a skill don't limit your ability to purchase training in it later, but skill point investments do. If you've already raised a skill twice using skill points, you can't be trained in it. [ Wednesday, January 18, 2006 14:07: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Wednesday, January 18 2006 15:38
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That's not entirely true. Bonuses to your entire party don't count, particulary a pair of Endurance increases and a Parry reward from a well. Any quest reward increases to a single character are treated exactly like a point gotten by training, which means it will restrict purchases and increase training costs. —Alorael, who can only think of two rewards like that. One is First Aid from somewhere and the other is Nature Lore from Fort Dranlon for exploring west of the river. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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