Trait/race bonus effects
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The Establishment
Member # 6
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written Thursday, December 22 2005 20:04
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quote:You need to get through the Abyss first, he's in the section south of Khoth's Lair; look for some stairs to cross the river. Before he will help you, you need to dispense with an eyebeast. -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Thursday, December 22 2005 20:31
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I've been making some notes on locations of Spellbooks, Trainers, etc. to better plan this sort of thing out. Formello: Sage Townshend in the NE of town will train (expensive): Arcane Lore for 1400 Spellcraft for 2800. These are both worth waiting for, because the first spellbook you hit is under Potionmaster Hrank's shop in Fort Draco and is easy to go back to. So, I have decided to buy my first two levels of each of these for my PC's. Hacking through the undead and Motrax Lair fights, etc. without some of the skills you can't buy till Silvar/Cotra would be a pain. I'm thinking Bows and Melee in particular, though if you are all Divinely Touched nephil, it would probably work tolerably—I am usually able to take a skeleton out with four arrows or less. The placement of many skills trainers seem so far down the line from when any competent player would have already trained at least two levels in them, that I was really wondering what Jeff was thinking when he placed them. If you don't know where they are ahead of time, they are largely unuseful when you come upon them, as they were in my first game. This is especially true for the first half of the game or so. Late trainers tend to offer skills you actually are still deficient in. In Silvar, Captain Call in the NE trains (only when the shade is not present) (expensive): Melee or Pole Weapons for 2100 Bows for 1680 Hardiness Defense Quick Action for 2100 I could see holding off on bows for 3 out of 4 PC's, especially if nephils, but maybe not my designated archer. Vlish was explaining some time back that dexterity and other skills become more useful for an archer later on than mere Bows skill anyway. If you wait for the Bows training in Camp Samuels, it's around halfway through the game, though once past the Formello barrier, I suppose one could make a beeline there, assuming you can fulfill the quest to enable that training...which might not be easy with current skill levels. Sharpshooter would be worth waiting that long for so cheaply. In Cotra, Cecil the Mage will train you after fulfilling his request (average!): Mage Spells through Lightning Spray Arcane Lore 1000 First Aid 800 Spellcraft 2000 Magery 1500 FA is not worth holding off on entirely, in my opinion. Considering that 1 point from each of 4 PC's is all it takes to get a decent FA return going, is it really that much to invest up front? It's one point per PC, not worth much for anything else. I would invest some FA at the start either minimally in all four or 4-5 levels in one. I seem to recall bumping FA up to about 4-5 per PC by the end of my first game, and thinking that seemed like plenty. Nature Lore...I don't remember who trains that, but it's even more intolerable to do without throughout the early parts of the game in the name of saving a couple SP's. I think NL gets up to 8-10 needed throughout the E. Gallery. Who remembers who/where trains NL? Putting 8-10 NL on just one PC is inefficient to get that far, considering you need only 4-5 NL per PC by the end of the game to open all the caches but about 2-3 you can live without. I don't know about anyone else, but I sure don't want to go run over all the old terrain looking for caches about 1/3 through the game. Bleah. I just wish some of these trainers were somewhere more appropriate and reasonable, like Formello. My notes only go through the E. Gallery so far, so I don't know the specifics for most things after that. Knowledge Brews become possible about 3-4 significant tasks/challenges before the very end of the game, so don't count on them for anything other than your final beefing up for the endgame, essentially. ... I think having Divinely Touched nephils is reasonable if you intend on playing the entire game through on Torment. This game is no walk through the park. Combat is challenging, and defensive skills and bow skills are useful, if not vital. EDIT: Thurly, I don't think you can get NL in Formello, or am I missing something? I do think slith's got short-changed here, which is too bad, because I'd normally like to have at least one. And I think both nephil graphics are rather weak at best. There were at least three of them in BoA, weren't there? One of them looked pretty evil, which might be fitting for a Mage. [ Thursday, December 22, 2005 20:54: Message edited by: Synergy ] -------------------- A4 Items • A4 Singleton • G4 Items • G4 Forging • G4 Infiltrator • NR Items • The Lonely Celt Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Thursday, December 22 2005 22:29
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quote:Nah, I'm probably mistaken. I remembered there was a trainer somewhere in the early game who taught both Nature Lore and Arcane Lore, and assumed that it was the sage in Formello. Oh, and I remember there being exactly four graphics for both Nephilim and Sliths in BoA -- just the right amount for an all-nephil or all-slith party. [ Thursday, December 22, 2005 22:33: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 5268
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written Thursday, December 22 2005 23:35
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quote:Walner in Duvno if I'm not mistaken (And if I am mistaken, (not Walner in not Duvno) or (Walner in not Duvno) or (not Walner in Duvno) ) Posts: 148 | Registered: Tuesday, December 7 2004 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Friday, December 23 2005 00:22
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It is Walner in Duvno. He sells Arcane Lore for 1400 and, more interestingly, Nature Lore for 1120. —Alorael, who was saddened by the lack of a Naturewalker's Torc in A4. What's all the Nature Lore good for without it? Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Friday, December 23 2005 21:41
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OK, I’m about 2/3 through the Eastern Gallery with my Divinely-Touched kitty squad. I’m wondering how Slarty and Vlish are doing with their latest parties, or anyone else experimenting with party construction. I have to say, these kitties are kicking butt, even on Torment. They are all at Level 13 at present, and getting better (single digit) XP than less advantaged previous parties were getting at this point in the game. I’m getting 3-4 points per chitrach per PC. I held off on buying nearly all skills purchaseable through the E. Gallery except a little First Aid and Nature Lore for one to two PCs, just enough to get me through. I gave my designated archer a heapload of Bow Skill and Dexterity. He already is trainable in Gymnastics and Sharpshooter, though I am holding off on training any Sharpshooter till I can get him to Fort Samuels, which I should do right now, come to think of it. I should be strong enough to win the right to cheap bow skills! As soon as I got to Formello, I bought Arcane Lore from Sage Townshend and ran back to Fort Draco to read the spellbook under the city. There is also one upstairs in Formello. The Sharpshooter skill from Divinely Touched and free bow skills for nephils means that all four of my PC’s have been doing very nicely with their bows...taking out skeletons or nephils with 2-4 hits. They are now able to take out a chitrach with 3-4 bow hits alone, very good for conserving magic on long underground runs. My main archer is getting 30+ per hit, and is neck and neck with my melee fighter in damage per strike, except my fighter gets upper 20’s Quick Action double-strikes as I did invest QA in him from the beginning (One could wait on QA too). I held off buying any actual melee skill till I got him to Silvar, where I started giving my fighter Defense, Hardiness, and Melee. So, it is quite possible to get this far on Torment and do very well without investing points in these trainable skills. I will be going after the Emerald Chestguard soon. We’ll see how it goes this time. I had trouble last time. Everyone has 6 Magery already. One can certainly hold off on Spellcraft till Cotra. So, to recap for anyone following this approach: Give your fighter Quick Action, but let his Blademaster from Divinely Touched keep him hitting. Pump up his Strength and Dexterity to get him Gymnastics in the meantime. Buy Melee (or Pole) as soon as you can get into the E. Gallery and down to Silvar. Soon to follow should be Defense, so you can get Parry trainable on your fighter along with Gymnastics, though I suppose one could hold off quite a while on Parry if you want to buy it first after killing the Silvar Shade instead. I already have three Parry from Elite Warrior bonuses. Dish out 2-4 points of First Aid up front...it’s cheap. It’s not a big deal to spend the points, but it is very convenient for not sapping SP in particular on a long run. Also dish out a few points of Nature Lore, maybe one on each PC and wind up with 3-4 on one PC which is how much you will be giving out by the late game anyway per PC. The E. Gallery needs 10 Nature Lore, but run to Fort Duvno first and buy Nature Lore on your way in to the E. Gallery. Give Bow skill only to a designated archer, but wait till Fort Samuels for Bows for the others, and Sharpshooter for all. I’m thinking I will give my archer some more Priest Skills before long, at least up through Repel Spirit and Smite. He already has 12 Bows and 9 Sharpshooter! It’s insane. Or I could give him some melee skills. Anyone else got an interesting update? -------------------- A4 Items • A4 Singleton • G4 Items • G4 Forging • G4 Infiltrator • NR Items • The Lonely Celt Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Friday, December 23 2005 22:26
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Synergy, you and I are following almost exactly the same game plan! It's almost as if we were discussing this before we started playing... heh. I am just around Draco at the moment, and I'll probably progress more slowly since the maps are all new to me. I have to say, I am really astonished by how powerful First Aid is. I only have 6 points and yet my SP get refilled at a very pleasing pace. Oh yeah, I made a new party with 68 points of First Aid as a test, and didn't get any more effect than usual from rats... so it seems there's a creature-specific cap. That would have been a real sad skill to be broken, eh? -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Friday, December 23 2005 23:54
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I've started a new game with a slightly different party build. I'll see how it goes. My question is how often you're going to find yourself broke, or what you're skimping on to afford skills. You're looking at tens of thousands of coins spent on skills. Does that mean buying no spells, selling all your potions, or what? —Alorael, who has only just started and just reached Fort Draco himself. So far everything has died with remarkable speed, but it's always the Eastern Gallery that starts inflicting pain. Having piles of skilled archers (none with any points actuall spent on archery) seems to make a huge difference, though. Everything not only dies, it dies from a distance. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Saturday, December 24 2005 01:03
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This degree of training requires extreme fiscal efficiency. Steal everything you can, including the two or three permissible thefts under people's eyes in each zone (choose the most pricey items you can). I pick up everything worth 20 coins or more (which means I get 5 coins back). I also sell anything off I am not really going to need or use, like when I upgrade armor. All those magic rings and necklaces really aren't that useful once upgraded, and even when I hoarded them, I almost never found myself changing them out for a certain kind of battle. Most of them really don't make that much difference compared to your overall armor and resistances. One can save more by getting Arcane Lore in Cotra instead of Formello, though it's a bit annoying waiting that long. It may mean going back to Motrax's cave to read a spellbook later, etc. I like selling off virtually all scrolls and wands and potions except energy and invulnerability potions. I almost never buy armor or gear, except to grab a better bow when I find one. I buy the Ratskin Shawl from Swampwalker Hurking as it is useful for a very long time, and sometimes a woven robe for a magician from the clothing guy at Formello. I just got my Bows/Sharpshooter from Fort Samuels...getting by the Ogre assassins was a bit of a chore, as I accidentally ran into them instead of sneaking up on them. At this point, there really is nothing much more to buy for quite a while. One will make repeated trips to Silvar to train up as more money comes in, but there is a long haul through the E. Gallery, Mertis, and the Honeycomb and beyond before any other training becomes available. The only other cost is spells, and one can even skimp on those in the meantime or exclude ones not used. First Aid is really quite nice, which is why I couldn't start a game with none at all, especially when it costs 1 SP. I assume you know that you get more and more FA returns the more you kill before leaving combat mode. One rat won't return much, but ten rats or one boss creature would. It becomes kind of a fun challenge to see how long you can run through tunnels or towns in combat mode killing hordes in your path, before finally coming out of combat to see a massive return on your health and spell points. It might be interesting to find out with some testing how much First Aid is practical or optimal. I brought my FA up to 4-5 per PC in previous games, but even 2-3 points each does quite decently. I get the impression that the pooled skills are all designed to have about 16-18 points total—either necessarily or optimally: Nature Lore, Arcane Lore, and First Aid. [ Saturday, December 24, 2005 01:15: Message edited by: Synergy ] -------------------- A4 Items • A4 Singleton • G4 Items • G4 Forging • G4 Infiltrator • NR Items • The Lonely Celt Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Saturday, December 24 2005 04:23
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*facepalm* I can't believe I forgot this before! The answer to the financing problem is LUCK. Luck, luck, luck. Okay, it's a very partial answer. But bringing your luck up to 4 or 5 will net a dramatic increase in the number of enemies that drop treasure. Lots of enemies drop jewelry. Since luck is fairly useful in general, it's not a trainable skill, and you're not really in a skill crunch before the Eastern Gallery, it's easy to pick it up early on. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Saturday, December 24 2005 06:11
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You know, it strikes me as being stupid to give a character a trait that includes magery, and then not give them any mage or priest spells at all. Really... All that magery really adds up, and just a few points in to mage skills or priest skills would pay off. Smite can easily top out at 100 damage with a little work. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Saturday, December 24 2005 11:26
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Slarty, how did you figure out the Luck connection? Are you sure about this? Vlish, I agree about Magery. Everyone Divinely Touched could do nicely with some amount of magical ability. All my PC's have at least one Level of priesting ability, and if I bring my bowman up to Smite level, then I'll have two decent priests and two mages, all of which are very handy. It can be very nice to have two PC's able to cast Repel Spirit or Smite at times. My bowman is already so maxed at his bow abilities I have to figure out something else to do with him shortly. How high do you think Sharpshooter is worth pumping? His is already at ten with more free bonus levels to come. I've been pumping his Gymnastics lately, but he's already getting up there in that too. -------------------- A4 Items • A4 Singleton • G4 Items • G4 Forging • G4 Infiltrator • NR Items • The Lonely Celt Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Saturday, December 24 2005 12:08
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Well, I happened to raise a whole bunch of luck at once, and noticed I was suddenly getting more items. Then I recalled that luck had a huge impact on item drops in Geneforge, and voila. Since the item and creature scripting appears to be lifted unchanged from Geneforge, it makes sense that's the same. So I'm pretty sure. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Saturday, December 24 2005 12:24
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Makes sense to me. So the question I now have, not having played Geneforge, is what else might Luck figure into more prominently like this? Seems like Jeff should have added one more of those little text tips that pop up at the bottom of the screen when loading a game: "Be sure to give your PC's some Luck. This will help them find treasure on the mangled carcasses of their dripping, slaughtered victims." -------------------- A4 Items • A4 Singleton • G4 Items • G4 Forging • G4 Infiltrator • NR Items • The Lonely Celt Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Saturday, December 24 2005 12:42
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Okay, time to add luck to my party. I've been neglecting it. Cotra is an excellent place to add two points of Priest to fighters, but I still didn't get much use out of it. I found myself shooting arrows more than spells and letting my real casters heal more often. —Alorael, who will need to rethink his item hauling strategies if he has to lug much more stuff around. His strength will no longer be sufficient. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 5900
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written Saturday, December 24 2005 12:51
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Hmm... a good way of... uh... overcoming the benefits of divinely touched nephils is to use Hawk King's editor right after you start the game. That way you can already plan exactly what you'll be doing with most of your skill points. I have just cleared the Monastery/Grindstone area, and I already know I'll have a "mean, lean" nephil melee meat shield, an nephil archer/priest (what the hell, I'll get 19 levels of sharpshooter for free, why in the world would I waste skill points in bows?) attacking first and three times every round (priest up to smite), a hedge wizard (mage up to slow) slith equipped with The Big Poke, and my sexy human mage/thief/archer. Oh, the power, the power!! RAmpaGE. Edit: You can also use the editor after you have started. You'll still be better prepared to use the skill points coming your way. On luck: yeah, I've also noticed that you get more items with more luck. I got an emerald from the goblins locked up under Fort Monastery the first two times I killed them, but not in the third, when I neglected luck. The only other benefit I know of luck is the increase in your resistancies, wich is *really* useful in itself. On items: I pick up anything that will give me more than 1 coin. Actually, I mostly pick anything with monetary value. Strength is not a problem. I give 3-4 to mages and 4-5 to archers and warriors. That's all they'll ever need for their equipment. I always clear the entire area BEFORE I start picking up items. Once I'm done, I backtrack picking everything up, not having to worry about the encumberance, since I won't have any more fights. If I have to enter another area, I just drop everything at the beginning of it and clear it. There must be a point where you won't be able to do that, but there are none as far as the end of the eastern gallery. My PCs will have bad backs in their old age, but they won't mind. Not with an harem available to massage them. [ Saturday, December 24, 2005 13:07: Message edited by: RAmpaGE ] Posts: 22 | Registered: Sunday, June 5 2005 07:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Saturday, December 24 2005 16:21
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1. I am quickly concluding that the worst thing about Deadeye is that it ONLY penalizes 10% rather than 15%. Now my archer goes up levels ahead of everyone else, thereby reducing the amount of experience everyone else gets! Very annoying. 2. Luck has a very small effect, but it has a very small effect on a number of different things. It definitely affects hostile effect resistance and item drops. I'm pretty sure it affects hitting, dodging, and damage as well. (If past games are any guide, Luck will give +1% where most skills give +5%.) I imagine it affects saving throws for charm and such, and there are probably other effects. So it's a very good value, it's just unfocused. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Saturday, December 24 2005 17:32
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Slarty, your Deadeye archer...Divinely Touched nephil or something prior to the kitty experiments? My Deadeye Divinely Touched archer is penalized 50%, and the other kitties are 55%. All are level 15 together. Why is yours off so much? -------------------- A4 Items • A4 Singleton • G4 Items • G4 Forging • G4 Infiltrator • NR Items • The Lonely Celt Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Saturday, December 24 2005 21:30
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(goes up levels) (ahead of everyone else) not (goes up) ((levels ahead) of everyone else) He's only 500 or 600 XP up, right now; each level he gets about a 50 XP lead on the others, which makes sense given that he gets 50% of normal experience and the others get 45% of it. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Sunday, December 25 2005 19:17
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quote:Actually, A2 and A3 have four slith and nephil graphics. BoA has five, but that fifth one looks distinctly different than the others. Dikiyoba wonders why all NPC nephil are all brown or yellow, while three nephil graphics are gray. Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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