Trait/race bonus effects
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| Author | Topic: Trait/race bonus effects |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Thursday, December 22 2005 11:06
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I just did some testing to find out how trait bonuses change as you gain levels, and it turns out the level 1 bonuses are a little bit misleading. There are basically three tracks: (1) Weak: +1 point every 10 levels, starting at level 0 (2) Medium: +1 point every 6 levels, starting at level 0 with 1 additional point (3) Strong: +1 point every 4 levels, starting at level 0 Most bonuses follow the medium track; the only weak bonuses are to First Aid (Nimble Fingers), Gymnastics (Nephil), and Magical Efficiency (Natural Mage). There are also only three strong bonuses, and they are all from Divinely Touched! The main significance of this is that Divinely Touched is much better than it looks. For the first 15 levels it isn't any better than the other traits. But at level 32, it seems that a Divinely Touched character will have +9 bonuses to Blademaster, Sharpshooter, and Magery. Elite Warriors, Natural Mages, and so on at the same level will have just a respectable +6 bonus. That's the equivalent of a MASSIVE number of skill points, especially if you're buying those skills anyway. Hmm, another reason not to take Fast on Feet :) For non-skill-based bonuses, the only one that shows up on the character sheet is the Slith bonus to Resist Fire. This is a flat 10% that never goes up -- not a very good bonus at all. I haven't been able to substantiate the defensive bonus claims of Divinely Touched, Fast on Feet, Thick Skin, or Good Constitution, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. Q: Has anyone observed how these bonuses interact with the 30 point limit that reportedly applies to some (or all?) buyable skills like Tool Use? -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Thursday, December 22 2005 12:15
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30 is the max allowable amount in all stat categories. If you buy level 31, the Train screen will let you do it, but then it reverts to 30. So, I imagine if you got 30 in a skill like Tool Use, any level-based bonus thereafter would not stick either. 30 is the limit no matter where the points came from. Nice work. Keep it up! I'm liking Divinely Touched for all my PC's all the more. I'm wondering what else besides Sharpshooter the Deadeye trait actually adds to bow ability—is it really worth it to give an archer, or will Divinely Touched add more with it's more quickly ramping up Sharpshooter? Nimble Fingers seems pretty weak, and I have abandoned using it as a Trait. [ Thursday, December 22, 2005 12:20: Message edited by: Synergy ] -------------------- A4 Items • A4 Singleton • G4 Items • G4 Forging • G4 Infiltrator • NR Items • The Lonely Celt Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 5268
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written Thursday, December 22 2005 12:51
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Looks like people are converging on an ideal party of: 2x Nephil, Divinely Touched, Elite Warrior 1x Nephil, Divinely Touched, Natural Mage 1x Nephil, Divinely Touched, Pure Spirit or 2 x Nephil, Natural Mage, Pure Spirit Anyone running a party like this at the moment? Posts: 148 | Registered: Tuesday, December 7 2004 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Thursday, December 22 2005 13:41
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I doubt Sharpshooter adds anything else. It's priced at 10%, whereas Elite W, N Mage and Pure S are 15% with another medium bonus or small bonus + ability. N Mage + Pure S seems entirely worse than either of those + D Touched. Both the manual and Synergy's testing suggest that _ Spells, Spellcraft and Magery have equal effects on spell power, and Efficiency is pretty bad. Also, don't forget D Touched + Sharpshooter, which could easily replace one of the DT+EWs. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Thursday, December 22 2005 14:12
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You mean Deadeye, rather than Sharpshooter, right? Though they might as well be synonymous if Sharpshooter is all Deadeye gives you. Its description could certainly be fulfilled by Sharpshooter alone (more likely to hit and hit harder). Again, why use Deadeye when Divinely Touched gives you Sharpshooter, and advances its bonus levels at a faster rate? Might as well make an Elite Warrior or another Natural Mage out of an intended archer. I make mine a second mage and only make one true meat shield fighter. It's exceedingly annoying at this point having only two nephil graphics though one can change their color with the Appearance button in the training window. Personally, I think the races as PC's look silly. I'd rather have many humans to choose from and more traits (like Nimbleness) to assign, and be able to assign however many I want. I am forced to go through a whole game now with walking cats or lizards just to optimize my game. This is racial biasing! (Humans have no special abilities or advantages). I vote for humans having "Intelligence" bonuses, and therefore making ideal magicians...at the very least. [ Thursday, December 22, 2005 14:23: Message edited by: Synergy ] -------------------- A4 Items • A4 Singleton • G4 Items • G4 Forging • G4 Infiltrator • NR Items • The Lonely Celt Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Thursday, December 22 2005 14:28
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Slith characters had a bonus to Int a long time ago, as I seem to recall. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Thursday, December 22 2005 14:42
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quote:If by "a long time ago" you mean "in the Exile series", you're correct. :P I really don't get why so many people have the impression that Sliths are stupid just because they're large, strong and often uncivilised. Everything about the game canon says otherwise. [ Thursday, December 22, 2005 14:43: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Thursday, December 22 2005 14:51
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Well, Slith mages were considered so much more powerful than human mages... Doesn't seem so stupid to me. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 1546
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written Thursday, December 22 2005 14:52
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quote:It's a good point. You have 4 character slots to fill. Two of the three races you can choose from, only have 2 graphics. There's skimping, then there's skimping. edit: Tagging score: 1/3. :( [ Thursday, December 22, 2005 14:53: Message edited by: kuc ] -------------------- A Sucaran Child is standing here. You say, "hello" The small child looks at Preserver Aldous wide-eyed and awed. Posts: 269 | Registered: Friday, July 19 2002 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Thursday, December 22 2005 15:01
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Well, I just assembled a new party of four Divinely Touched nephils. Stomper is my Elite Warrior. Striker is my Natural Mage archer. Slinker is my Natural Mage thief. And Padfoot is my Pure Spirit priest. Each nephil has a total XP penalty of -55%! Thank God for the color choices in the initial SP setup screen. I made them different colors so I can at least tell them apart visually. Even the A4 manual says that sliths are magically talented. Yet, the game offers no magical bonus to being a slith. Tsk tsk. Rather than saying humans are magically more adept than, say, sliths, I still think giving them Intelligence bonuses and/or Tool Use bonuses (due to our ten nimble fingers) might be appropriate. -------------------- A4 Items • A4 Singleton • G4 Items • G4 Forging • G4 Infiltrator • NR Items • The Lonely Celt Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Thursday, December 22 2005 15:06
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Or, hey, just give humans 6 skill points per level instead of 5 to represent greater versatility. Actually, if one did that, one would probably have to improve the other races' bonuses a fair bit to compensate. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Thursday, December 22 2005 15:08
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Having four Divinely Touched Nephils... That's one heck of a batch of kittens. Either that, or somebody has forgotten all about role playing and has become utterly munchkin. Personally, I like nimble fingers. Free first aid and tool use. What's not to like? -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Thursday, December 22 2005 15:11
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1. Deadeye, yeah. Whee, I'm tired. I would never use Deadeye instead of Divinely Touched. Use it IN ADDITION to DT. The effects are cumulative. That combination will give you +15 to Sharpshooter at level 32. There are certainly arguments to be made in favor of EW or NM ahead of it. I'm using it, though; here's why: I'm running a party of a tank, an archer, a priest, and a mage, somewhat along the lines of what Vlish is doing. (I keep starting over with revised character plans based on new data about the game engine, so I haven't gotten very far... need to stop doing that :) Having a second character who is primarily a melee fighter makes the tank much less of an effective defense, unless I also make the second character a tank -- a melee fighter has to be in close range to be useful, after all. And if I make a second tank, my offensive ability drops a little bit, without my ability to defend really improving. Also, since enemies on Torment have so much HP, it's helpful to have all my allies concentrate their fire on one enemy; this is slightly easier to do with only one melee-range attacker. A third mage would be tempting, but increasing my magic reserves by 50% seems less useful to me than having a consistently strong supporting attacker I can use without having to worry about conserving MP. Plus, somebody said there are some things archery is the best offense against. It increases my options. 2. I think the reason people think Sliths are stupid is because the vast majority of the Sliths you encounter are hostile, and at least half of the friendly ones are grunting laborers with limited English vocabulary who react to you the same way that every single serf/refugee/child/etc. extra in Ex/Av does, by acting vaguely confused and pointing at their leader. 3. And I feel your frustration over the 2 icon choices. I feel it a LOT. Although the skills (and traits, and races) systems in all of Jeff's games are extremely well-implemented, I have never really liked the design. (Exceptions: I like the 'collective skill' design of mage lore, and I loved the spell circles in Nethergate.) While Jeff's games are superbly well-balanced on the whole, that is not as true of his skill systems. Exile, for example, had five skills that were almost completely useless (HP, Bows, Throwing, Poison, Item Lore) and several that were overpowered (20 Luck made you immortal). The XP "penalty" of traits (and of extra creatures in Geneforge) has been broken from the beginning, in Exile II. From a Positive Play Experience oriented point of view, having characters with distinct and unique abilities is good, as it helps ensure that all characters will be useful and fulfill some kind of useful role for the party. In other words: classes and specialization are good. Specialization fosters discussions about "I found it helpful to have these abilities; I used my Valkyrie to cast support spells freeing up my Priest's SP for combat" rather than these all-out optimization projects of ours, and squinting at the screen to figure out whether to pump Spellcraft or Magery first, etc. I certainly don't HAVE to make a party of four bow-toting Nephils just because it's optimal -- but it doesn't HAVE to be optimal, either! While the systems have gotten more balanced and focused -- the switch to four PCs in Av1 reflects this -- they have also gotten a lot more removed from reality: what the heck is the difference (in terms of what you are practicing) between Spellcraft and Magery? Quick Action vs. Quick Strike? Please. --slarty -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Thursday, December 22 2005 15:12
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quote:In practice, Nimble Fingers is good for about a +3 bonus to each. The First Aid bonus is small, and the Tool Use bonus... well, raising Tool Use is something you're mostly going to be doing early in the game, since level-15 traps start showing up as early as Formello and Unlock Doors takes over for doors later in the game. So you don't really get the full benefit of the Tool Use bonuses as your level increases. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Thursday, December 22 2005 15:16
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I had my fun role-playing my first two times through. Now it's a challenge to assemble the most potent and effective party possible. I'm rather pleased everyone's XP penalty is identical after giving each PC exactly what I wanted him to have. I really really wish we could assign three or unlimited traits to PC's. I'd give Nimble Fingers to the thief and Deadeye to the Archer, Fast on Feet to the fighter, and Natural Mage to the priest so he could cast a few mage spells in armor to boot. [ Thursday, December 22, 2005 16:07: Message edited by: Synergy ] -------------------- A4 Items • A4 Singleton • G4 Items • G4 Forging • G4 Infiltrator • NR Items • The Lonely Celt Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Thursday, December 22 2005 15:18
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Ah, but tool use gives you +2 to tool use to start, plus a point every few levels. So I can start out of the gate with 8 points invested, which raises it to 10, which allows me to open all kinds of things. By the time I reach Fort Draco, it's up to 12 usually... Allowing me to open up all kinds of doors there. And I can easily gain a couple of levels before Formello... Usually, by Formello, it's 15, and I have only added maybe a point or two. It's a set it and forget it sort of skill. Which is nice really. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Thursday, December 22 2005 16:10
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I seem to also be afflicted with the dreaded "Have new information, must make new party" syndrome. I'm REALLY tired of everything up through Formello at this point. Maybe I should just make two humans and two kitties as I would much more naturally prefer, or one slith, one human, except it seems like a slith's talents go to waste if you don't give him a pole. I don't find fire much of an issue in A4 either. I can't see why you'd want a slith unless you make him a pole-fighter. A nephil melee fighter seems good because (A) I give some bow skills to everyone and (B) Dexterity is the most central skill for a good meat shield. What's your specific party makeup (with races) at this point, Slarty? I agree with the only one fighter up front idea and have been following that model for my last several experiments. I agree one good archer is very useful, which is also my second PC. But you make him exclusively a powerful archer, rather than combining with Mage or anything else? Giving a nephil Divinely Touched and Deadeye as a focused archer does sound very tempting. It sounds like your priest is a priest/mage? This means that you can't encumber him in heavy armor if you follow your own advice that Natural Mage and Pure Spirit combined are rather a waste. This works if you resolve to garb your priest in robes or leather armor only. I assume you make your mage your thief? Actually, Vlish or anyone else working on effective party contruction, from all we have been learning the last couple of weeks, what is your ideal party construct (with races) at this point? (Not necessarily what you are currently using). -------------------- A4 Items • A4 Singleton • G4 Items • G4 Forging • G4 Infiltrator • NR Items • The Lonely Celt Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Thursday, December 22 2005 17:02
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Well, it has been my own conclusion that Nephils are, in fact, as a race, grossly overpowered. Gymnastics is turning out to be one of those uber powered sleeper skills that somehow seemed to fly under the radar during the beta... And I don't think much can be done about it now. Not that Nephils get much of it, but every last point helps and they do get it for free. They also gain free levels in archery, which is rapidly proving to be the most reliable physical skill in the game. (For many reasons, how parry works, how damage is boosted, and that you can punish foes with physical damage and not worry about charm or ripost effects) For a mere 10% exp penalty, which really isn't a penalty at all, you are having your cake and eating it too, with some extra scoops of ice cream. The only thing that is really a downside to them is the horrid graphic issue... There are only two, and one of them looks like poo. Sorry, but the nephil in the breastplate graphic is so poorly done that I simply can not stand to look at it. And changing colours turns his fur odd shades of green, purple, or blue, causing him to look even worse... It's bloody awful. I really hate to say this, because I am a big fan of this game and most of Jeff's work... But like Geneforge III, this game feels only half done and then rushed out. Need I remind any one of the super pixilated GIII boats... BLARGH! And really, the Sliths got shafted, all things considered. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Thursday, December 22 2005 17:22
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Here's what I'm currently running, with some explanation I left out before. I suspect my opinions may change by the time I finish -- unlike the rest of you, I have the disadvantage of not having seen anything past Fort Draco! Thing -- Nephil, Divinely Touched, Elite Warrior Human Torch -- Nephil, Divinely Touched, Deadeye Invisible Girl -- Nephil, Divinely Touched, Pure Spirit Mr. Fantastic -- Nephil, Divinely Touched, Natural Mage (Hey... I had to explain those creepy spandex outfits somehow! Poo is right.) I have restricted my skill point placement to relatively few abilities, sacrificing skills that make little difference early on in order to get more out of trainers later. I have probably done this more than is practical, given the always high cost of trainers... does anyone have any more information about who teaches what where for how much? I am assuming, of course, that there is no 300gp/point Silverlocke cheating factory in this game... Either way it doesn't really hurt me. Priests, for example, don't really need high spell power early. So I also concentrated First Aid and both Lore skills in Invisible Girl -- they are too useful to ignore, but that way I can buy them later for the others. Mr. Fantastic, of course, got Tool Use; like Vlish I like to ignore that skill so I just gave him 12 from the start. As Nephils, both casters have a passable enough bow attack to get us through the easy early levels. Bolt of Fire doesn't fry things by itself, but it doesn't need to with bow support from the rest of the team. Human Torch (I look forward to giving him a flaming bow, if that's one of the "elemental bows" I keep hearing about) is freest to spend his points; I pump Bows and Dex and then start on Sharpshooter. Once I get that up a bit, I have been saving up his skill points -- he already has a fantastic attack for the early area, and I'm not sure if I'll want to pump it right away, or wait for the Cotra trainer and get him some other skills. Thing gets a bunch of Quick Action, then Dex and Str and Gymnastics as soon as it becomes available. I've found that I don't really need to buy any Melee skill, given the Blademaster bonuses from both of his traits. His most important function is defensive; by ignoring Melee I improve his defense and also open up the possibility of training it later. We'll see if that lasts. Depending on the location of trainers and $ availability, and my patience, and some point the skills will spread out; everyone gets at least a level of priest to get more benefit from first aid, the archer will probably get a little more magic invested in him, Thing will pick up Melee and the advanced fighting skills, the mages will share some tricks and pump their magic stats. As for the mage/priest armor issue: I thought about giving my priest Natural Mage over Pure Spirit, but after skimming the item script, encumbrance seems to be much rarer than I expected. Most of the best helms, shields, boots, and gauntlets don't have any; for armor, the spellcasting bonus armors aren't encumbering, and the two weaker Quicksilver armors, which I suspect my mages will end up wearing, are both usable as well. (No amount of protection is going to make me pass up natural 10 AP. OK, almost no amount...) -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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The Establishment
Member # 6
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written Thursday, December 22 2005 17:55
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All this overreliance on divinely touched seems to make the game too easy. I didn't use any traits on the game I played and everything worked out just fine. All a matter of preference I suppose, but four divinely touched PCs seems a bit cheap. -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Thursday, December 22 2005 17:57
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quote:In general, expect to pay 2000 gold to train in a skill, give or take a thousand or so. Skills you can train in include Melee Weapons, Pole Weapons, Bows, Thrown Missiles, Sharpshooter, Spellcraft, Magery, Nature Lore, Arcane Lore, Quick Strike and maybe a couple of others I've forgotten. Of these, it's definitely feasible to wait on Spellcraft, Magery and Quick Strike, and maybe on Nature Lore and Arcane Lore too. (It's not so useful to do so with the lores, since the first two points cost so little anyway, so the cost/benefit ratio is less impressive.) You can train Nature Lore and Arcane Lore in Formello, if you're so inclined. For Spellcraft and Magery, wait until Cotra. (A word of warning -- don't buy any mage spells in Cotra until you've done the quest for the guy who teaches them. He'll give you a discount afterwards, and offer you training as well.) For Quick Strike, you'll be waiting a long time -- the trainer is in Almaria. quote:Nope. If you save up herbs throughout the whole game, you can get a large but finite number of skill potions made for you near the end. Or so I've heard; I'm west of Fort Remote now and still haven't found an alchemist who makes knowledge brews. [ Thursday, December 22, 2005 17:59: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Thursday, December 22 2005 18:19
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Waiting to buy Pole and Melee is pointless. You'll need to give those skills to the appropriate characters to get far enough to buy them. A few points for primarily ranged characters is okay, but then you'll almost never get any benefit because those characters are staying away for ranged combat. Thrown weapons are simply not worth training. Bows are better. It's quite possible to wait and buy very cheap Bows and Sharpshooter, and I recommend doing so. Waiting on Spellcraft is a bit tough but quite possible. Waiting on Magery is easy. I haven't wanted to try to get through the beginning with barely competent mages and priests to buy those skills in Cotra, but I suppose it's (barely) possible if you make the most of Natural Mage and Pure Spirit. Nature Lore and Arcane Lore are so cheap in skill pionts that I've never bothered buying them with coins. The coins are better spent on more expensive skills and spells. —Alorael, who has the same waiting for quest advice for archery. In Camp Samuels you can get Sharpshooter for so little that it's almost a bug. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Thursday, December 22 2005 18:39
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quote:Ah. See, I don't have any pure spellcasters in my party -- my priests are both archer/priests and my mage was a mage/thief, so I had so many other things to pour skill points into that I didn't even want to put skill points into Spellcraft until some time after Cotra. If you had a pure spellcaster, I can see how you might run out of other skills to usefully raise before then. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Thursday, December 22 2005 18:46
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It's a trade, though. If you start with archer/spellcasters, you can't buy archery for them in Camp Samuels. Tool Use would make sense, though. [edit: capitalization] —Alorael, who has an urge now to try to reach Cotra as fast as possible without ever putting skill points into any skills for his casters. Painful? Why yes. It'll definitely require Natural Mage and Pure Spirit. But think of the stories! Move over, Hapless! [ Thursday, December 22, 2005 18:46: Message edited by: Xeno's Paragua ] Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Thursday, December 22 2005 19:16
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Based on the trainer prices I dug up, I'm changing my strategy. I'm going to avoid as many trainable skills as possible, instead relying on trait bonuses with Str and Dex for weapon damage. For the tank this will be relatively easy, since Strength, Dex, and Gymnastics are all untrainable. The mages can start training pretty soon, just after Cotra, and since the Spells skills aren't trainable I'll just diversify those a bit earlier. And picking up Luck earlier is probably a good idea anyway. I'm less sure what to do about the archer's archery -- can I get by on traits? At level 6 I'll have 3 bows and 5 sharpshooter... maybe pumping dex alone will be sufficient. The other question is Lore and First Aid, which are worse values... -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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