So What Makes a Torment Capable Party?
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Tuesday, December 13 2005 16:43
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I have been debating this one in my mind. First off, the lead character. Sword and shield seem the obvious choice. I mean, Demonslayer is so nice, offers so many resistances, hostile effect resistance, etc. It's a good defensive sword. Shields are useful to gain all kinds of special skills, defense, and resists. And yet, there is the appeal of a powerful Slith warrior. And so many traits, so little time. The archer is an obvious slot. But make him a thief or make him a dedicated and focused archer? A Nephil is the likely character here. Traits? Fast on Feet? Nimble Fingers? Deadeye? While there are many variables for those two slots, I think it is going to be the casters in the last two slots that make or break the team. I have really been going over what a torment capable party is going to need. Firepower. Since Jeff assured everybody that tool use does indeed have some effect on unlock doors... It seems obvious now that the best choice for a thief is a mage. This frees up the archer to do nothing but pump dex and sharpshooter for obcene amounts of damage. What the game really needs is at least two mages and a priest. Which just doesn't seem to work with a four person party. Yet, you can make a mage priest. I am still undecided if splitting your self is good or bad. Sure, you lose the power of a focused mage, but you gain flexibility. With one mage acting as a thief, and the other building equal levels of priest and mage skills, your rise to power will be slowed, delayed, but possible if you remain dedicated. (And there is an awesome armor for mage / priests. After a whole lot of thought, I realised, mages have all of the power in the early game, and most of the midgame, but near the end, priests get the real power. Divine Retribution fries everything around you. (Aura of Flames) And the ability to summon very powerful shades, shades that are capable of going toe to toe with endgame enemies, that kind of summoning ability is not to be ignored. I would dare say that the priest's ability to summon shades is better than the mage's arcane summon. Arcane Blow just... Blows. The most common resistance come endgame is magic resistance, and I was bitterly disapointed seeing the big damage mage spell doing 25 damage to endgame enemies, while Divine Retribution was doing well over 100 points of damage to everything on screen. The only downside I found to Divine Retribution was every enemy on the screen suddenly hating my priest and howling for his blood, and making a beeline to destroy him. So a mage priest would only need a passing dedication to his or her mage skills, just using whatever was available to survive, coming in to full power later as they bring their full destructive abilities in to play. Also, a great deal of defensive ability here, able to cast any buff you could think of to assist the party. If the front line fighter was your classic sword and shield type, that would mean one of your casters would likely be a Slith if you used one, which could be bad, seeing as how the experience penalty would bite you in the butt for a long time. Sure, in the end, they catch up eventually, but having one character of your party lagging 3 or 4 levels behind everyone else is a real pain for me. So humans become the obvious choice for casters. A Nephil might also work as the thief mage, but archery would only be a passing interest, and you would have to make a human in to a dedicated archer, which would work, but Nephils gain so many free levels of damage with their missile skills. A Slith Lancer does work... Sliths seem to do just fine as javelin chuckers. Something else to think about is on Torment, ancillary damage becomes better than physical damage. Bows that stun, or drip acid, swords that poison or burn with acid, the delivery of effects is far more important I think than the application of physical damage. So having everybody have some small training in missile weapons or some such thing to apply these ancillary effects for when the crap his the fan seems like a good idea, at least in practice. Which brings us back to the front line fighter. A Slith with the Jade Halbred would indeed, make a good front liner, if you can live with out the defensive bonuses of a good shield. The other option is to go Slithless... (Is that a word) Which somehow seems wrong to me. Thoughts? -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 6136
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written Tuesday, December 13 2005 17:21
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Im almost completely agree with what you said, some people will hate you for this, though. You know, someone don't like archers at all but i do. About the mage/priest believe me it's really useful, i tried it but not in the beggining of the game, i did it after betraying the anama. I think that we both use a very similar party, but there is special arrows in A4? cause i read that now the arrows are unlimited... :confused: Why A4 doen't have a 6 members party? In that case i use a human soldier, a slith berserker, a nephil archer, a mage, a priest, and a mage/priest, just like the default exile 2/3 party :D Posts: 446 | Registered: Friday, July 22 2005 07:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Tuesday, December 13 2005 17:27
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There are some rare and exceptionally powerful bows that do not fire regular arrows. They fire blobs of acid or stun enemies or do any number of amazing things. And these bows do not take arrows. Edit. I should add. What I am finding is that in Torment, stuff is killing me faster than I can kill it. Things just hit to hard and have to many hit points. The bugs... They are bad. Plated bugs are especially bad. Anything that parries or reposts is bad, because one round of not doing enough damage means it lives a little longer, probably long enough to kill somebody. It's a very bad situation. Sort of like cutting down the mightiest tree in the forrest with a herring, [ Tuesday, December 13, 2005 17:30: Message edited by: Delicious Vlish ] -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Tuesday, December 13 2005 17:35
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I keep tinkering around with party construction experiments and I usually make it with them as far as Fort Draco or Formello before wanting to try something else, mostly because I keep learning more about how the game, skills, and stats work lately. I've just put a new party together, and I play on Tricky or Torment always now. I relate to the conundrums of party construction you're going over. Here is my latest brainstorm, and it's not unlike yours: 1) Meat shield human melee man with Elite Warrior & Strong Will. 2) Nephil archer/mage with Natural Mage and Deadeye 3) Human thief/mage with Natural Mage and Nimble Fingers 4) Slith priest with Pure Spirit The two humans are at 25% penalty and the other two are at 35%. These are not bad penalties at all. If you level up at flat or negative rates, you hit diminishing XP returns early in the game. I think it all evens out, but the difference here is the benefits of races and positive traits. My idea is also that mages are more important earlier on, especially through the Eastern Gallery where fire and ice is the best weapon agaist the bugs—especially fire. Two mages and two abilities to hasten in one turn can be very useful offensively when every turn counts. I've settled on Tool Use of 12-15 being enough for one mage, and, combined with decent mage ability, he will be able to unlock doors just fine till the end. The other mage can develop very reasonable worthwhile archery skills, and will also have a sword and shield to offer various benefits. I may stop this mage at Lightning Spray, and focus the rest of his skills on archery after that. The other will be a full mage. Arcane Blow does rather blow. Nothing comes close to the divinely destructive delight of Divine Retribution all in all. The priest follows your blueprint for a slith-priest, actually, though I think a human or nephil variant would work fine or even better. You'd have to accept that no one gets the Jade Halberd in the game. It might be better actually, if playing Torment, to make the priest very focused on his priesthood and archery alone. I give archery skills to every PC in every game. It's just too darn useful too darn often to neglect. All this requires is 4-5 Bow skills and some dexterity which I want them to have anyway. There are exactly four killer bows in the game, and each PC will want one by the end. If you don't do a slith priest, I'd make a Deadeye Pure Spirit Nephil and focus entirely on bows and priest skills. I can see how the Eastern Gallery would start kicking just about anyone's butt on Torment. He who lives by the bow, also dies by the bow. This is why I think two mages where one can drop back partway is a good approach to getting through the game on Torment. [ Tuesday, December 13, 2005 17:44: Message edited by: Synergy67 ] -------------------- A4 Items • A4 Singleton • G4 Items • G4 Forging • G4 Infiltrator • NR Items • The Lonely Celt Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 5268
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written Tuesday, December 13 2005 17:44
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quote:I tried a party with a Slith Fighter and he was inferior to a Human (Sword and shield) with Elite Warrior in the same party. The defensive holes were incredibly annoying - he kept getting taken out of the fight because he took too much damage. I think the Elite Warrior is essential for a front line fighter - I haven't tried a Slith Elite Warrior - but Slith alone can't hack it. I was much happier with a party with a Nephil Archer/Pole user instead of a Slith (Archery rocks in the intial stages but quickly gets overtaken and is only a secondary attack later in the game). My current party is all human with two Elite Warriors (and an experiment with the other traits - Tough Skin and Nimble Fingers) and two casters both with Natural Mage and Pure Spirit. Posts: 148 | Registered: Tuesday, December 7 2004 08:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Tuesday, December 13 2005 17:53
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It's more than the bugs. Try invading the Bandit Castle... All those archers hidden behind the murder holes. You can not kill them fast enough. Ugh. I am finding, and it may be because I haven't figured it out yet, all plans on Torment should include picking out a sacrificial lamb. Who's turn is it to die today? I have never yet made it to the Castle on Torment. I did manage to get my self involved in The Ogre Battle. After realising I was hopelessly outmatched, outclassed, and did not have nearly enough firepower, I quit the game in disgust and started over. Torment now seems to involve enemies with entirely to many hit points. It's become a war of attrition. I am not sure if I like it or not. I am used to pretty much steam rolling Torment in Geneforge... But this is obviously not Geneforge. It's going to come down to precise party planning and creation, with a follow through of brilliant and dedicated tactics, executed with a swift brutal assault followed by a hasty retreat. Been thinking about The Art of War and the idea of a running battle tickles the back of my mind. I WILL beat the game on Torment. I believe it might mean something now. Although I have a bad feeling that the Vanatai Lord near the end will most likely be every party's undoing. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Tuesday, December 13 2005 19:18
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Something to ponder: If raising the difficulty makes monsters tougher, does it also improve summoned monsters? I believe so. If that's the case, you may be well served by depending on even the meekest of minions to get flattened for you while you plunk away with arrows and spells. Problem: It's hard to summon consistently without burning all your energy. It's also hard to summon in a way that isn't absolutely useless, because the AI is not interested in saving your hide as much as dealing damage. Problem 2: This really doesn't help with archers shooting you. —Alorael, who must now consider the wisdom of an entire party of glass cannons. Attract as few enemies as possible, throw everything into killing them, and then run to the nearest town. That still doesn't solve all the problems and doesn't sound like much fun, but it certainly seems more plausible than going toe to toe with things that make you go squish. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 4153
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written Tuesday, December 13 2005 19:23
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That vahnatai lord is already the partial undoing of many... I remember playing through on normal, and that thing was still insanely hard to kill. It drained nearly all of my SP to do so, and the thing ripostes every other attack. On torment? (shudder) -------------------- Thuryl: "Runescape: for people who are too stupid to save their games." Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice. Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Tuesday, December 13 2005 19:46
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On NORMAL I bet that thing has close to, around, or over 1000 hit points. It's highly physically resistant, resists all forms of magic, has insanely high parry and reposte... And it regenerates in an insane fashion rapidly healing the damage one deals to it. He also can deal lethal blows, while rare, that are extremely painful. I am not totally sure, but I believe he also has anatomy. He knows how to dish out the hurt. On Torment, I would imagine that the regeneration level will be higher than whatever level you could damage it. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Wednesday, December 14 2005 00:15
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That Vahnatai Lord wasn't so tough. After a couple dozen rounds I got into a rhythm where only half my party was fleeing in panic at any one time, and the other two kept on slowly chilling him to death with the wind of near misses. Okay, actually he was tough. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 1960
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written Wednesday, December 14 2005 06:36
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I've played through A2 and 3 many times and never used a slith. Huh. Posts: 220 | Registered: Saturday, September 28 2002 07:00 |
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Master
Member # 5977
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written Wednesday, December 14 2005 07:03
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quote:Is this just a coincidence, or did you take this from Monthy Python's "the Holy Grail," "the knights who say Nie!", wanting King Arthur to cut down the largest tree of the forest wiiiiith.... A HERRING! Arthur: "That can't be done!" Knights who say Nie: "Oh come on?" -------------------- Play and rate my scenarios: Where the rivers meet View my upcoming scenario: The Nephil Search: Escape. Give us your drek! Posts: 3029 | Registered: Saturday, June 18 2005 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Wednesday, December 14 2005 08:15
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The only common references to herrings are red herrings and Monty Python herrings. The mightiest tree is a dead giveaway. Either DV is a comic genius who was beaten to the punchline years ago or he's making a Monty Python reference. Hm. —Alorael, who once again suggests that the vahnatai lord might be manageable if surrounded by divine and vengeful shades. Probably not, but maybe. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Wednesday, December 14 2005 08:36
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quote:The VLord cuts down shades like a hot knife through butter on normal. His lethal blows don't do a whole lot to fellow party members, but they make short work of shades, who typically die instantly. My main concern, should I ever get to that point, will be halting or otherwise arresting his insane regeneration level. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Wednesday, December 14 2005 09:48
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I had a party lacking in artifacts and not terribly well designed, but playing on Normal, I got into a rhythm with the vahnatai lord in which I was never really in danger. I think (as always) I had my one fighter up close taking damage, and everyone else out of his range, my archer shooting at him, my mage/mild archer/mild priest mostly shooting acid arrows or using Spray Acid or occasionally Bolt of Fire but sometimes healing, and my priest mostly healing but sometimes running forward for a turn to Unshackle Mind. You know, maybe it was my third character that made that fight manageable. She was primarily a mage with some archery and some priest ability, so that she could keep him covered with acid and cast offensive spells, but whenever the priest ran forward to Unshackle Mind (which was about every two turns), I could use her for healing. And come to think of it, it helped that my first character was designed to be incredibly fast, so that it moved before the vahnatai lord, so that the only result of the terror was that I had to cast a spell, rather than losing a turn and the vahnatai lord advancing on me. And it also helped that my first character had close to 300 hit points, so he didn't need to be healed every single turn. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Wednesday, December 14 2005 13:28
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Yeah, I think you can probably finesse this guy by playing with ranges, keeping your priest terror-free in the background. My problem was that I didn't know how bad the guy really was -- you know, it takes a few rounds to check for vulnerabilities to all the different types of attack -- and while fumbling around taking out his companions I let him get close to everyone. He's still going to be a pretty bad dude, though, whatever you do. When does the hurting start, on Torment? I've just reached Formello, and it has been easy enough so far -- easier than the first time through on Normal, when I didn't know what I was doing. Hey, though: I'm really not looking forward to hearing those strange scratching sounds around here. They were bad enough on Normal. Maybe Daze will help ... -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Wednesday, December 14 2005 13:33
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The Eastern Gallery is where "Torment" really begins to live up to its name. In fact, I haven't seen a post from anyone who got past it on Torment yet. -------------------- A4 Items • A4 Singleton • G4 Items • G4 Forging • G4 Infiltrator • NR Items • The Lonely Celt Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Wednesday, December 14 2005 13:53
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Formello is still pretty much trouble free, except for a few spots. Worms, the insane necromancer, a few assorted battles here and there, but nothing troublesome. It's painful at times but completely manageable. It's the Eastern Gallery is where the real pain starts. I have found that Daze, while somewhat useful, becomes lackluster once you start working your way through the Eastern Gallery. Mlevels become high enough to resist it, and it's a long time before you have access to Strong Daze. Thus begins the run and gun game. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 6554
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written Wednesday, December 14 2005 19:43
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personally, i like to have all custom(of course) and make my first character a very good archer/coupled with being a medic then my second is a slith 10 melee weapons and lots of strength and when i upgrade i focus on tool use and strength and endurance my third character is a nephil preist, i put in as many points for preists as i should for if you put in about 5 or 6 you get the spells that come with it,anymore then that and it's almost wasteful, again i focus on intelligence and some endurence coupled with a few points with spellcraft and defense and the rest on tool use my last is a human mage again as many points to mage as i can with getting spells, intellighence, arcane lore, and nature lore and the rest goes in various places such as defense or hardiness -------------------- join me! we shall harness the power of geckos, bunnys, and fluffy pink stuffed animals and rule the world!!! Posts: 193 | Registered: Wednesday, December 14 2005 08:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Wednesday, December 14 2005 20:05
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And you have played the game on Torment? How far? Or did you just stumble in to this thread to inject generic party ideas? -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 5268
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written Wednesday, December 14 2005 20:20
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quote:I'm not convinced by that in A4. In particular, a hedge wizard (or was it shaman? I can't remember but it's one of those, and the other is similar anyway) takes over 90 points to build compared to the 75 you get for a custom creation. Except for the rogue, the premade archetypes are significantly better than you can make with the 75 points available through custom creation. Posts: 148 | Registered: Tuesday, December 7 2004 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 4239
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written Wednesday, December 14 2005 23:43
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Is that new to A4? Because I thought I saw in a previous game how you could make all of the archetypes with the 75 skill points. Of course, it's also harder for the archetypes to waste points in this game given the reduction in useless skills. -------------------- There are two kinds of game players...those who are newbies, and those who were. Posts: 322 | Registered: Monday, April 12 2004 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Thursday, December 15 2005 10:06
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Many of the custom characters get more skill points, but the allocation is suboptimal. Berserker is pretty good, and I think Hedge Wizard is a decent choice for making a mage/priest, although I didn't use it. Other than that, most of the choices look nice except for the fact that a large number of points are put in places where you'll get no benefit from them. —Alorael, who twitches whenever he sees skill points in throwing. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Thursday, December 15 2005 13:11
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What's wrong with throwing weapons? One of my priests has Bows skill and the other has Throwing skill, because I wanted to make them different in some way. It's working out pretty well for me so far; right now, with equivalent amounts of skill, my thrower does about 50% more damage with a plain javelin than my archer does with a yew bow (45ish compared to 30ish). The only drawback is that javelins are really heavy. Incidentally, I *highly* recommend giving all priests 3 levels of Mage Spells, so they can cast Haste (and Bolt of Fire, which comes in handy more often than you'd think). This means limiting them to a 5% armor penalty so they can actually cast mage spells, but that's not as bad as it sounds, since there are plenty of good items with no penalty. (Shields, for example. I don't know what Jeff was thinking when he decided to give shields no penalty, but I'm not complaining.) [ Thursday, December 15, 2005 13:18: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 5268
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written Thursday, December 15 2005 13:27
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The archetypes average around 85 points to build yourself. Because there are fewer wasted points I tend to go with them rather than custom. What I do though is consider whether they have skills I would ever want rather than skills I would give to my ideal starting character. As a result I consider very few skills 'wasted' because it will all wash out by around level 5-10. Throwing might be one of them though because, after experiencing the joy that is unlimited-arrow archery, I hate to go back to scrounging around for ammunition. And I tend towards making my casters dual class with around 6 levels in the off class by the end of the game (and close to that early on). Having two casters of haste is really useful -- as is having two healers. [ Thursday, December 15, 2005 13:30: Message edited by: Skippy the bush kangaroo ] Posts: 148 | Registered: Tuesday, December 7 2004 08:00 |