So What Makes a Torment Capable Party?
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Thursday, December 15 2005 13:37
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There are many bows by the end of the game that are worthy of copious drool. There are some nice razordisks and javelins, but nothing really superior. Throwing hits its peak too early and becomes pretty much useless by the end. —Alorael, who also didn't want to waste the carrying capacity on many items when a bow could leave room for several thousand more potions and rings. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Thursday, December 15 2005 15:04
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By the way, just as another little tip, don't underestimate the value of First Aid. It's very cheap to put 2 points on each character, and that's enough to get an automatic heal of about 20 HP and 5 energy after a medium to large-sized fight. It's certainly a better defensive investment than Endurance, which is almost useless at low levels (although it improves later on). [ Thursday, December 15, 2005 15:07: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Thursday, December 15 2005 17:03
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Reasonably high Endurance in the mid-game becomes pretty good and in the late-game becomes indispensable, though. I had a meat shield fighter with around 300 HP from 13 Endurance, and I was glad that I did on several occasions. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 1546
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written Thursday, December 15 2005 17:49
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It's interesting to hear you talking about building characters with certain skills which are pertinent to the start or mid of the game, but ultimately aren't that great in the end. When the game seems to be so starved for skill points, requiring choices and sacrifices - wouldn't you want to build specifically for the latter part of the game, which in theory should be the hardest and most important part? -------------------- A Sucaran Child is standing here. You say, "hello" The small child looks at Preserver Aldous wide-eyed and awed. Posts: 269 | Registered: Friday, July 19 2002 07:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 6554
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written Thursday, December 15 2005 18:12
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well i am still going to alsways use custom no matter what you say -------------------- join me! we shall harness the power of geckos, bunnys, and fluffy pink stuffed animals and rule the world!!! Posts: 193 | Registered: Wednesday, December 14 2005 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Thursday, December 15 2005 19:38
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I'd build characters that way. Most skills are either always useful or become more useful as you go. The only exception that I can think of is throwing, really. —Alorael, who spent no skill points and a great deal of money on First Aid. Getting 3 energy after killing a single monster means that you can use Bolt of Fire and still end the battle with a net gain. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Thursday, December 15 2005 19:54
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quote:I'm not convinced that the endgame will be hardest. For one thing, by keeping the early to midgame easy for myself, I'm likely to end up accumulating a massive supply of usable items (energy potions, invulnerability potions, etc) which I can lean on later if all else fails. Moreover, I've been doing *some* planning for later on stat-wise; I've already got 12 Arcane Lore and 16 Nature Lore spread out among my party, so I'm not going to need to throw too many more skill points into those for a while. I also try to keep at least 10 unspent skill points in reserve on every character at all times, so that if I urgently need to boost a particular skill I can do so. I'm a short way into the Eastern Gallery now and so far this strategy is working well for me. So far the only things that have given me real trouble were Hrickis (who I managed to bump off after a few reloads) and the testing shade north of Formello (and there's a trick to surviving that fight). [ Thursday, December 15, 2005 19:58: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Monday, December 19 2005 17:45
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I believe that the trick to surviving Torment is going to be quite simple actually. Gymnastics. Sorry I have been gone for a while. Severe ice storm. Before power and internet went buh bye, I discovered something really very interesting. I made it all the way in to the Eastern Gallery with some new builds, and, going on a hunch that it is best to not be hit at all, I started pumping gymnastics from the start. Staying power. Gymnastics equals staying power. What I have noticed is, enemies, for now, can't seem to hit me. Most of the bugs had like a 10% to 20% chance to hit. Archers, hated archers, most of them in the bandit areas were rolling 1% to hit. Even mages with spells, like Skunky Joe, had a hard time frying my Slith simply because his spells had such a low chance to hit. I do not know if this will sour later, but for now, having pumped gymnastics and a decent level of parry has made my front line fighter practically impervious. I even had him running around with no armor for a while. Just naked. He is capable of going toe to toe with pretty much anything and everything in the Eastern Gallery on Torment... Which is a big deal for me because of all previous failures. I believe I have found the means to survive Torment. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Monday, December 19 2005 17:52
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Welcome back, Vlish and congratulations on surviving the Icy Rain. I just finished getting through the E. Gallery on Torment too. My main fighter has a lot of Dexterity and Parry, but only one or two in Gymnastics so far. Parry is very helpful, and he does parry half or more blows aimed at him. I was working him up to getting trainable Blademaster for offensive purposes. Maybe I'll have to throw some Gymnastics at him first and see how that helps. Are you saying you are giving Gymnastics to all your PC's or only to your frontman? That's 8 Dex and 6 Strength, a lot to invest for magicians. I've been using your slith-priest model for my fourth PC, but he has been dying more than anyone else. That shield really seems to make a difference. Sliths aren't looking any "tougher" in actual gameplay. I might have to go with Alorael on his opinion of sliths, but I am sticking with this game in the meantime. EDIT: The party I assembled which made it through the E. Gallery on Torment; 1) Human melee fighter, Elite Warrior, Strong Will, focus on Dexterity and Parry 2) Nephil archer/mage, Deadeye, Natural Mage, boosting Sharpshooter now 3) Human thief/mage, Nimble Fingers, Natural Mage (Tool Use quickly up to 15—he can already magically open L20 doors) 4) Slith priest/pole, Pure Spirit, not quite yet trainable in Anatomy. He dies a lot. Maybe I should give him Parry first. If I did it again: Same as above, but make the priest a human priest/mage, stopping off mage spells at Icy Rain or Lightning Spray. It is joyous beyong words having three mages in one’s party...three (or six!) opportunities to Haste or cast Fireballs or Icy Rain. Fireball is the cheapest way to dispatch chitrachs. [ Monday, December 19, 2005 18:08: Message edited by: Synergy ] -------------------- A4 Items • A4 Singleton • G4 Items • G4 Forging • G4 Infiltrator • NR Items • The Lonely Celt Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Monday, December 19 2005 18:08
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Oh no, gymnastics for the front line guy only. See, what usually happens is, something stays alive just long enough to kill somebody. Usually my front line fighter. Things like the bugs, which ripost and parry themselves. Gymnastics is making the frontliner very, very difficult to hit. Nothing, and I mean nothing seems to be able to kill him so far. Mostly because everything has trouble hitting him. And it's funny that he keeps dying. Something must be wrong, because in my games, he's usually the last one to die. ;) I am going to be facing the undead soon, and I might try out the Ogre Battle to see how that goes, because that is a good test to see if something works. Parry is nice... No doubt. It is better however, to simply not be there at all. I really don't know why I didn't think of this before, as it seems so obvious now. And I would also say it's balanced. Gymnastics doesn't allow you to kill anything faster, it just gives you considerable staying power which allows your team mates to blow something apart in relative safety, at a distance. Also, it allows you to always go first in battle. Which is nice, because it allows you to rush forward and get some control of the battlefield. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Monday, December 19 2005 18:45
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I've had second thoughts on my opinion on all experience penalties, actually. I realized that most of the game is spent getting no experience because your levels are too high for the area. So then I thought, why not have more power at a lower level and get more experience? I haven't tested it yet, but I think slapping Elite Warrior and Divinely Touched on a Slith might not be such a terrible idea after all. The penalties add up, but they won't really make much difference in the end. The only trick is keeping everyone about the same in penalty, because it only takes one high level character to send your experience gains into the single digits. —Alorael, who finds himself pining for the days of Exile, when giving someone all the advantages, including the redundant ones, was possible. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Monday, December 19 2005 18:48
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Well, you could give Divinely Touched to your casters, along with Pure Spirit and Natural Mage. And you could roleplay them as twins... ;) -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 671
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written Monday, December 19 2005 20:40
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This is a great discussion, and I believe that my party has benefitted immensely from it. I've always tried to play the previous Avernum titles on their hardest difficulty, with varying levels of success. This time around, I've re-rolled on three occasions, and I think I've settled on a a well-rounded satisfactory party. Here's the jist: Nephil Custom (Deadeye/EliteWarrior) - Ultimate Archer, lots of dexterity, lots in bows. A sprinkling of points in melee, quick action, hardiness, defense, luck, and nature lore. This character always moves first, often killing single monsters immediately. Slithzerikai Custom (ThickSkin/EliteWarrior) - Pole Fighter, built to recieve and deal damage. A few points in bows, quick action, hardiness, defense, nature lore and luck. This character follows up my archer with ranged attacks, positioning itself as best as possible to protect the casters. If anything does manage to get close, it's promptly put to the spear. Nephil Custom (NimbleFingers/NaturalMage) - Rogue Mage, constructed as a moderately capable mage, with lots of points into tool use. I put a point into bows and some into quick action, so that he moves before the enemies get a chance to. Human Custom (NaturalMage/PureSpirit) - Holy Mage extrodinaire. Lots of points into intelligence, and mage/priest skills. A few points in bows, quick action and luck. I've never played a combination mage/priest before, but I'm finding it very handy. Third time around, I didn't put any points at all into either spellcraft or arcane lore, or first aid. Having found all these trainable in lower levels for cash rather than skill points, I'm picking up everything with a value of four or greater that isn't nailed down. In regular combat, my entire party acts as a squad of archers, often killing monsters before they get within melee range. Any that do, my Slith makes short work of, and with my archer having a few points in melee, he's able to lay on hurt at close range as well. Whenever I begin to get overwhelmed or have to fight a particularly difficult battle, the casters turn to their primary roles. I'm not far beyond Formello at the moment, so I'm not sure how I'll hold up in the Eastern Gallery. So far, copious use of Quicksave helps to carefully plan out the tougher battles. The only drastic thing I'm considering is turning my Rogue Mage into a Rogue Holy Mage after he gets ~20 in tool use. I don't think he'll be as effective as my primary caster, but I'm enjoying the versatility in my Holy Mage so much, more of a good thing can't be bad! I've got all pseudo-archers mind you, because being able to deal significant range damage without draining mana I find is very important, but thrown weapons take up too much weight, and are a limited source of ammunition. Posts: 19 | Registered: Sunday, February 24 2002 08:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Monday, December 19 2005 20:47
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I use thrown missiles. Nephils, in particular, gain enough free levels in thrown weapons that if you have a spare stack of razordisks or lances, you can swap them in and throw them. And I have made more than one Slith Lancer... Specialising in both melee and thrown spears. Fun, strictly from a roleplaying sense, and not a munchkin red wizard gaming sense. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Monday, December 19 2005 21:01
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Will someone comment some more on how much Luck they think is worthwhile for what sort of PC's? I always give my PC's one Luck to start with, but rarely wind up giving them more than 2-3 Luck by the end of the game, as something else always seems more pressing. But maybe more luck for the meat shield up front would be worthwhile, as already discussed recently, and leaving him with the Clover Boots for this reason. -------------------- A4 Items • A4 Singleton • G4 Items • G4 Forging • G4 Infiltrator • NR Items • The Lonely Celt Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Monday, December 19 2005 21:06
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quote:Those absurd little boots are quite possibly the most powerful item in this game... But they are far to subtle for a majority of players to appreciate. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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The Establishment
Member # 6
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written Tuesday, December 20 2005 08:09
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I'm about ready for the final fight and my party has luck primarily centered around my two front line fighters. I gave them about 4-5 a piece in addition to the added bonus of luck items such as the Charmed Plate and the Clover Boots. I mainly like it because it increases my mind effect resistance (albeit slowly), which is pretty low on my fighters. I know there are items, but I cannot justify them when confronted with more combat bonus items. One combination that I like is holding on to the quicksilver items (and putrified gauntlets) on my priest and then using the Necklace(?) of Might (strength +4!!) to offset the strength penalty. -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Tuesday, December 20 2005 13:34
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I just had a tactical thought: advantages in this game might be much better than they have been previously. Being lower in level than a monster gives extra XP due to the scaling system, so taking disadvantages seems almost silly; you want to gain levels slowly. I think my second party is taking shape now. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Tuesday, December 20 2005 13:41
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Well, not exactly that you want to gain levels slowly, but that the exp scaling causes experience bunching: penalties are not as bad as they seem, advantages are not quite as good. If you have a penalty, you will always be behind (assuming you fight the same battles, and neglecting round-off issues that might conceivably falsify the thesis inconsequentially). But if your exp penalty is 20%, you will reach the same levels in less than the 125% of the time that you would naively estimate. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Tuesday, December 20 2005 13:45
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Heck, I want to gain levels more slowly. Half the enemies I killed gave me 1 or 0 XP, because I was too high a level. This might solve my problem of not getting enough XP rewards for cleaning out dungeons. Maybe I'll just go all-slith Divinely Touched for my second run-through. :P -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Tuesday, December 20 2005 14:01
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I'm not overly impressed by Divinely Touched. Unless you really want one character to use all three of melee, bows and spells, the more specific traits seem to give you at least as much power for less XP penalty. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Tuesday, December 20 2005 14:29
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I agree with Kel, though. Experience penalty doesn't matter. Even with 30% penalty you'll still spend a lot of time killing monsters that give no experience. If you're lower in level, they'll give experience until you catch up. Advantages are no longer a tradeoff. They're purely advantageous. Disadvantages are also no longer a tradeoff: you'll end up with the same levels but hauling around crippling traits too! —Alorael, who doesn't see why giving someone Divinely Touched is so bad. Buy a fighter a couple of points of casting in Cotra and you've made the most of your non-penalizing penalty. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Tuesday, December 20 2005 18:59
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Well, yes. But there's still a limiting factor on traits in that you can only have two of them, and for my money I'll take Elite Warrior and Fast on Feet over Divinely Touched for a fighter, and Deadeye and Pure Spirit over Divinely Touched for my archer/priests. I'm kinda wishing I'd taken Divinely Touched for my mage/thief, though. Nimble Fingers seems... less than impressive. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 6177
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written Saturday, December 24 2005 15:41
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Interesting discussion, thought I'd post my two cents since I've been playing on torment for avernum 1 - 3 and Blades. (because what fun is a game that isn't hard?) The one thing I would say (and the only thing that has kept me alive on torment) is, always ambush your enemies, always let them come to you. Every once in a while I don't (took some stairs up out of the Chitrach lair right into a group of 5 of them, death came fairly quickly) and I get the crap kicked out of me. I think with the right tactics, most parties (i.e. not singletons) SHOULD be able to make it through on torment. Although, I can't say that for sure, since I just got the game, and have only cleared the east gallery. But that was my experience with all of the previous incarnations of Avernum. And I just picked up the emerald chestguard, at L14 (when should you be getting it?), without have left the e. gallery. And only my stupid mage died... Also, I'm curious if anyone else builds their party like I do, this setup has evolved since I started playing Avernum, and this is it's latest incarnation: Human Fighter/Thief (sword/shield and tool use) Slith Fighter/Priest (polearms and mid level priest spells, mainly for healing/blessing, having a fighter able to cast heal has saved my life MANY times) Human Mage/Archer Human Priest/Archer Eventually, my first fighter gets some mage skills, so he can haste/slow things. (well, it used to be he would cast light as well, but not anymore....) They are all Divinely touched (ok, so I abuse Divine a little bit...) and both fighters have Elite Warrior, while the mage has natural mage and the priest has pure spirit. Having both my spell casters able to shoot arrows means that they use far fewer sp's and that when I run into something immune to spells, they aren't totally useless. Plus, both fighters have bow's so they don't ever have to spend time sitting around, waiting for enemies to come to them. Plus, I've found that by the end of the game, priests are generally more useful then mages. Anyone have thoughts/suggestions? I'm always looking for ways to make my party more efficient/interesting. One last question, does anyone else lament the loss of all the various fun spells that were in exile but not in Avernum (sleep cloud, web, stealth, major blessing! all sorts of fun stuff)? While is it kind of silly to have 50 mage spells, (or something, how many were in exile?) many of them were useful in rare circumstances, and they offered more oppertunities for different tactics. Avernum is more, shoot, hit, shoot, hit, icy rain/lightning spray, hit. With very little variation. I suspect that this question was frequent when avernum first came out, but how do people feel about it now that they are used to the Avernum setup? Posts: 34 | Registered: Friday, August 5 2005 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Saturday, December 24 2005 18:39
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As discussion has shown, all those humans should be nephils. Especially the archers. Otherwise, your setup doesn't look all that different from some others. I still miss the plethora of wonderful, worthless, and in-between Exile spells, but A4 is better than other Avernums. Area spells came back, and useful effect spells are around again too. —Alorael, who used almost every spell in A4 to good effect at least once. That's far better than Avernum, which had only a few useful spells. Exile had more interesting things overall, but the loss of the truly worthless spells (Symbiosis!) isn't bad at all. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |