Optimal Agent
| Author | Topic: Optimal Agent |
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Warrior
Member # 1250
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written Wednesday, June 8 2005 12:10
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I *know* there are tons of topics about how great the agent is, and even some about what sorts of stats one needs to complete certain tasks in the game, but I'm posting this anyhow. If someone knows where I can find the answer to these few questions, then refer me or lock the topic or whatever. I've heard of several methods for the optimum agent, one being an battle magic method, and another being a mental magic method. What are the relative merits of these two, and are there other viable methods? Related question: Is it possible to play the best agent possible with a well-rounded approach, putting points into leadership, mechanics, luck, et cetera? (not shaping--I know there are fanatics out there who would really pitch a fit if they thought I was shaping as an agent) Posts: 93 | Registered: Saturday, June 1 2002 07:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Wednesday, June 8 2005 14:11
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Delicious Vlish is pretty much the expert on Agents, but I prefer the battle magic emphasis for mine. I like blasting things more than just scaring or controlling or confusing them. For best all-round effectiveness, as opposed to iron-man-like challenges, I think you've got to go for Strong Daze and you've got to go for Speed. Past this I don't think you really need more blessing or mental magic. Put everything else into battle magic and spellcraft, and enjoy zapping everything. You also need to keep up your Quick Action so that you can guarantee to get the drop on things, and raise your Intelligence to keep your Energy up. Nothing else really matters, though some leadership and mechanics can be convenient. That having been said I know that the mental magic Agent also works, and DV can tell you more. I've never heard of anyone trying a blessing-focused Agent. In principle I guess it could work, but I think it would be too much like playing a pseudo-Guardian. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Wednesday, June 8 2005 14:22
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Pumping blessing magic is not very useful, as there seems to be a 'ceiling' effect -- after a certain point, bless doesn't get more powerful, etc., although they do last longer. It is however very possible to play agents melee-style. Compared to guardians, the loss of a few points on some melee skills is more or less balanced with the significantly easier time you'll have keeping Daze functional. The agent is more flexible, though. There's no real advantage to this over the standard battle magic agent, but it's extremely doable. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 1546
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written Wednesday, June 8 2005 15:06
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The problem i find with Melee Agents, is that they dont hit for enough, and get hit for too much. They are like weak Guardians, + Daze. In the event of you NOT killing the rogue you attack in 1 turn, it is undazed, and often kills you. That, tends to suck. Its far easier to nuke them at a distance, minimising their ability to even attack you, since they have to GET to you in the first place. That being said, Trinity is pretty much right. Without Essence Shield and Speed, you are a lot more vulnerable. A few points there never hurts, especially when it'll only cost you 2-3 skill points. -------------------- A Sucaran Child is standing here. You say, "hello" The small child looks at Preserver Aldous wide-eyed and awed. Posts: 269 | Registered: Friday, July 19 2002 07:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Wednesday, June 8 2005 15:13
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It's really just Speed that is the one key trick for Agents. With all those AP, and high quick action, you can attack infinitely many times in a row, as long as there's a corner to duck around. Everything else is just a matter of speeding up the process of chewing down the enemies, a process that Speed makes inevitable, because they never get to react. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Wednesday, June 8 2005 15:22
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I said that PUMPING blessing magic is not useful. i.e., bringing both it and spellcraft up to 20 as is often done with battle magic -- this would be a waste. I certainly wasn't implying that a melee agent should avoid using blessing magic! Good god no. And there are very few circumstances under which ANY kind of agent should EVER attack something which is undazed and won't die from the attack if you have less than 10 AP remaining. Cmon, common sense people. Melee agents may end up Dazing more often than a battle magic agent, but you won't be using essence or energy on spells much -- especially once you get a Regenerating Claymore. The argument that they are just like weak guardians is COMPLETELY fatuous. There's a thread here (Agent vs. Guardian I think) where I did out the math; by the late game the Agent will only be a few levels shorter on melee stats, but can opt to have a very functional Daze and Strong Daze. The Guardian won't be able to daze tougher creations without completely neglecting other stats; this is a huge disadvantage. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Wednesday, June 8 2005 16:16
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A good Agent pumps Battle Magic. The best Agent uses everything at her disposal, including Mental Magic. Dominate and Terror are key to complete and total destruction of your enemy. Terror, I have found, breaks AI scripting in G3. There are several occasions where this becomes valuable. I will leave it to you to figure them out. Never, ever, under any circumstances, add points to Endurance or Shaping Skills. An Agent is more than just Daze and Essence Orbs now. Things have resistances. Pay attention. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Wednesday, June 8 2005 16:33
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The point isn't so much that the melee Agent would be a weak Guardian, but that she would be so much like a Guardian that you might as well play a real Guardian instead. Compensating for your less effective melee attacks with Daze may well be effective, but it isn't as much fun as slugging it out with a live opponent, and may the best entity win. A possibly crucial factor left out, in the otherwise excellent 'melee Agent' analysis of the Agent vs. Guardian thread, was the Guardian's greater Health for the same Endurance. I'd like to see this factored in. Even apart from this, I'm not sure the differences that were pointed out - and which I agree are right - are really so small. As percentages of the stats typical of an end-game melee Guardian, they would be quite appreciable; and earlier in the game they would be larger still, proportionally. Plus, the difference between taking down an enemy in n swings or (n+1) can often be dramatic, so the practical consequences of a modest skill difference might be larger than you'd think from just staring at the raw numbers. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 1546
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written Wednesday, June 8 2005 16:48
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quote:That was pretty much my point Slartucker. Not that they are incapable, but more if you want to Melee, be a Guardian. Its like saying you COULD make a Guardian with 4 powerful creations and melee a bit yourself, but why not just make a Shaper? I'd expand more, but i swear Trinity reads my mind. Just re-read his post. -------------------- A Sucaran Child is standing here. You say, "hello" The small child looks at Preserver Aldous wide-eyed and awed. Posts: 269 | Registered: Friday, July 19 2002 07:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Wednesday, June 8 2005 17:40
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Actually, the health factor was discussed in that thread from the get-go, though admittedly not with numbers. I think that got defused by D.V.'s recurring exclamations about how easily everything dies on Torment no matter how much health you have :) Student of Trinity wrote: "The point isn't so much that the melee Agent would be a weak Guardian, but that she would be so much like a Guardian that you might as well play a real Guardian instead." You could just as easily say "the Guardian would be so much like a melee Agent that you might as well play a real melee Agent instead." *shrug* -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 5437
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written Wednesday, June 8 2005 17:44
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I prefer a melee Agent to a Guardian, as Guardians are magically inept. Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 1546
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written Wednesday, June 8 2005 17:56
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Not really Slartucker, as (over-simplified) generically Guardian - Melee Agent - Magic Shaper - Creations See, thats why they have specific strengths and weaknesses, because the class is tailored towards certain aspects of the game. If an Agent is to be a better melee than a Guardian, why does the Guardian class exist? And thats pretty much where it sits. -------------------- A Sucaran Child is standing here. You say, "hello" The small child looks at Preserver Aldous wide-eyed and awed. Posts: 269 | Registered: Friday, July 19 2002 07:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Wednesday, June 8 2005 20:03
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Guardians are ultimately a failure, but a fun class to play now because of missiles. Shapers become tedious. Sure, creations can kill, but it takes a while. Ho hum. Agents on the other hand... They walk into a room and say "Oh look... Ashes!" They are grossly overpowered. They kill quickly. They seldom need to actually retreat. For all this talk about ducking around corners, I don't find my self doing that very often. Walk into a room, Daze, and start killing at will. For things you can't Daze, there is Dominate and Terror, which completely nullifies any credible threat. Smash your foes with ice, stunning them into total submission where they have no APs. With the Guardian and the Shaper, the enemy has a chance. Creations do die. With an Agent, there is no such chance. There is only death. Victory is assured with a competent driver. It actually becomes boring after a while. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 4106
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written Thursday, June 9 2005 01:43
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I am totally newbie to playing agent since I completed G1 and G2 as shaper. How does terror help? All it does that the creature runs away and heals all its wounds. Posts: 24 | Registered: Wednesday, March 17 2004 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Thursday, June 9 2005 02:29
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YES really, kuc. I am well aware of the basic three-way division, but a better word for it than "generically" would be "stereotypically." Perhaps you should go look at the original analysis here. Just because the Guardian is presented as "the" melee class does not necessarily mean it is actually better at it. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Thursday, June 9 2005 05:17
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Hit something with a dose of burning spray and then hit it with Terror. Run it down. At least if it is running away from you, it is not attacking you. This is important. Also, try Terror on Hoge when you meet him. :D -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 5937
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written Friday, June 10 2005 20:15
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Guardian of Eternity wrote: "Related question: Is it possible to play the best agent possible with a well-rounded approach, putting points into leadership, mechanics, luck, et cetera? (not shaping--I know there are fanatics out there who would really pitch a fit if they thought I was shaping as an agent)" The answer to that question is yes. Here are the stats for my Loyalist Agent, Level 41, being accompanied with her date, Alwan, the ladies man. Magic Skills: Battle Magic: 11 Mental Magic: 11 Blessing Magic: 11 Spellcraft: 15 General Skills: Leadership: 11 Mechanics: 13 Luck: 4 One can make a well-rounded Agent. Until I reached Dhonal's Isle, I spent all of my skill points on Leadership and Mechanics. Skill level ten seems to be an optimal choice for the two. I trained in the four magic skills afterwards. This approach will leave your Agent weaker than your opponents initially; for this reason alone, I recruited Alwan and Greta. Why this approach? My Agent is a greedy, little experience hog. Being able to unlock doors and use Leadership for some situations gave me more experience. It makes a difference when you are desperately searching for experience points at the higher levels. As far as Shaping is concerned, you will encounter items and equipment that will boost your skill(s). There are some Shaping tomes scattered throughout the islands. Equip the Shaping boosting items/equipment before reading and see what you might learn. My experience with some of the Mental Magic spells has made me wonder how many skill points must I invest. The upper-tier creations have proven to be resistant to Daze, Strong Daze, Terror and Dominate. I am quite happy with Battle Magic being strong. Posts: 5 | Registered: Friday, June 10 2005 07:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Saturday, June 11 2005 01:17
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Why a blessing magic of 11? What good does that do? I could think of better places to spend those points. Is it to make your War Blessing last a few seconds longer? -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 5937
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written Saturday, June 11 2005 05:13
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Whooopsie...a typo on my part. My Blessing Magic is 9, not 11. Why is it so high? To keep Speed active as long as possible. I do not have the patience to do the usual, "cast Speed then enter combat mode" for almost every section. High Blessing Magic means I can cast Speed, walk around an area, with little worry that it will wear off. When I do encounter a combat situation, my Agent will have enough AP to perform two actions. As I stated in my previous post, I do not invest a single point in magic until after I visit a trainer. I buy two levels of each skill with my never-empty pouch of gold coins, and then use my skill points. Without the help of my friendly neighborhood trainer, my Blessing Magic would be 7. Posts: 5 | Registered: Friday, June 10 2005 07:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Saturday, June 11 2005 11:16
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Actually, without the trainer it would be 8 1/2. It costs 20 skill points to raises an Agent's Blessing Magic to 9 (it starts at 1) and 16 to raise it to 8. A trainer will only save you the first two skill points. (For a guardian, on the other hand, it will give you eight skill points worth of blessing magic...) -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |