Broken Vlish: a too long analysis

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Author	Topic: Broken Vlish: a too long analysis
Slarty Raven v. Writing Desk Member # 261	written Monday, May 29 2006 08:05 Profile Homepage #0 (Cautionary note: the title is a bit of an exaggeration. Vlish are severely overpowered and certain small but influential aspects of shaping are absurdly unbalanced.) I don't think I've played a Shaper on Torment before, not since G1, anyway. I rarely play Shapers. Well, this game, I have periodically been checking the preferences to make sure the difficulty is actually set to Torment. It hasn't seemed like it. Nothing can touch me. It's ridiculous. 1. Some background: I was trying to figure out which creations were really the most valuable, so I did a little testing, and looked through the creature definitions file. With the exception of the fourth-tier creations, who have a plethora of unique skills but aren't available until very late in the game anyway, there are very few things differentiating any of the creations. The most important ones are: - Essence cost (which also affects cost to pump stats) - Base level - Type of attack - Attack skill There are a few others: - Base HP and Energy - Small bonuses to stats - Resistances But differences among them are mostly insignificant, so I'll mostly ignore them. Type of attack is obviously important, as creations that don't have ranged attacks can't be employed the same way as ones that do, and some of the ancillary effects (slowing and stunning) are quite useful. Level is by far the most important characteristic, however. A creation's four primary stats are equal to half its level (rounded down). Level and Endurance are responsible for the bulk of HP, and Strength + Attack Bonus is responsible for how strong ALL creation attacks are (yes, including missile attacks). Attack bonuses are generally smaller than base levels, and HP bonuses are almost all puny in comparison to even mid-level creation HP, so level is really what makes or breaks a creation. If you look at the creation stats with this in mind, they actually seem fairly balanced. The more expensive, higher tier creations have higher base levels. There are two problems with this, though. 1) Bonus to base levels. When you shape a creation, it gets a bonus of +1 for each point in Create X you have, and +1 for each point in the appropriate Shaping skill (+1 per 2 points above 10 and +1 per 3 points above 20). It's trivial for a Shaper to reach 10 in any Shaping skill, so you can basically add a flat +11 or +12 to each base level right away. 2) Levelling up. As frequently discussed on this board, having 7 creations follow you reduces your own XP by nearly 50%, but by the end of the game you will only be down a handful of levels over this, perhaps 4-6. Creations get almost exactly 75% the experience that you do, regardless of the creation's own level, and the level of your creations doesn't affect how much XP you get. So if a creation follows you around for 20 level ups, you can expect it to gain 15 levels. Not insignificant! Point #2 becomes horrifically relevant when you realize that some creations (generally, the weaker ones) are available before others are. Yes, you could theoretically find a way to run to Dhonal's Keep at level 1 and get Drayks right away, but aside from the fact that you wouldn't have enough essence to make one, that takes the fun out of the game, for me anyway. Here's a table of this basic information about the first three tiers of creations. I've left off the fourth tier since they would be poorly represented on this chart, and I've left off Cryodrayks since they don't become available until fourth tier creations do. I separated them out based on when they become available to you -- almost immediately, soon after reaching Harmony Isle, and soon after reaching Dhonal's Isle. I also clumped the creatures with no missile attack together. (Note that this table uses actual base levels, which are 75% rounded down of the base levels listed in the definitions file. Also, for the creations like Battle Alphas that get tiny Strength bonuses, I just lumped those in with melee and missile skill.) The following table presents the creations as they would be if you put 10 points in the appropriate shaping skill, buy 2 levels of Create X, create them as soon as you have the ability, and keep them with you. I adjusted these where necessary -- you can only get 1 point in Drayk right away, from a canister, whereas Terror Vlishes require using at least 1 canister to get to 3, the value I used for them, and so on. This means that several of the creations, such as Vlish, could actually be created a level higher with canister use. For a point of comparison I've chosen level 25, which when gaining levels slowly allows time to potentially get even the Beta and Ur-Glaahk. There are a variety of creation strength-boosting effects available: +2 Transference Robe +2 Sharing Belt +2 Guardian Claymore +3 Crystalline Shroud +4 War Blessing Since any player will have at least some of these, I'll be conservative and pick the two biggest no-brainers (Claymore + Shroud) to give each creation a bonus of 5 to Strength, and no Endurance bonus. Basically, the effect of wearing more is just to make the creations with better damage multipliers (like Drayks) better, and to make to-hit rates even less relevant. I averaged out the typical damage assuming no resistance. I didn't include base damage because it's small and I'm not sure if it applies to creation attacks. (i.e. the Fyora's attack, Firebolt, has a multiplier of 1-3 per level but may have base damage of 1-4 as well.) HP calculations do include bonus HP. I still haven't included the cost of 2 points of Int in the base cost, since it may be useful to skip those at first in order to create more creatures when you are at a lower level despite having lower essence. Several things should be apparent from this chart. The first is that levelling up creations is really powerful. The second is that Battle Shaping sucks, a lot. In exchange for a not very useful advantage in HP, battle creations have weaker attacks than magic creations, especially when you consider how common physical resistance is. The third is that Vlish are really overpowered. Their slowing effect would already make up for the few points of additional damage a Drayk gets, if it weren't for the fact that Vlish cost 15 and Drayks cost 50! There are a handful of enemies with high resistance to energy attacks -- good thing the Vlish has a physical attack that's as strong as any other creation's, considering it also causes poison damage. Oh, and speaking of resistance, the Vlish gets built in resistance to several types of attacks, more than any other creation in the first three tiers. The cheap cost of Vlish means, furthermore, that you can more easily afford to pump their stats or support them with spells. And if you pump stats, wear more boosting equipment, or gain more levels, the advantage their 1-5 missile attack has over the majority of creations that are stuck with 1-4 attacks just increases. And let me reiterate that the slowing effect is really powerful. 2. Torment, really? The other thing that should be apparent is that by levelling up creations, you can make powerhouses without using up too much essence. One level 32 Vlish might be weaker than a level 30 solo Agent or Guardian, but seven of them? Supported by Mass Energize? That's about where I am now, and even on Torment, the game has become a joke. I almost never buff, because even without it, I can take out several enemies per round. Buffing meant, for example, that Spharon's HP got reduced to nothing in two rounds, despite his having high resistance to energy attacks. The shard kept him alive longer, but being hit with slow fourteen times per round meant that he never got to attack at all. I don't think I can say anymore that G3 is the Agent's game. I haven't spent any skill points the past couple of levels because there's nowhere to put them that will actually make a difference. I suppose I can put a bunch in Intelligence later if I want to shape some Gazers. I know, I know. Geneforge is all about Shapers. They are supposed to be powerful. But this much power is ridiculous, particularly from a 15 cost creation. Levelling up is only part of that, though. Going around Greenwood with level 14 Artilas was pretty easy, too. My balancing suggestions would be: - Reduce the base level bonus from shaping skills slightly, or just make the skills more expensive - Make the XP your creations gain depend on the number of creations you have. Levelling one creation up this much is a nice option, I think, but levelling seven up is too powerful. - Fix the Vlish's attacks so that they are weaker than average as in G1. - Do something to make battle creations worthwhile. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 \| Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Delicious Vlish His Mighty Tentacle Member # 627	written Monday, May 29 2006 08:48 Profile #1 I told you so... Been saying this all along, Vlish are stupidly overpowered. Phobia, my all Vlish build, has always just breezed through the game with little to no effort. Thing is, they have always been this way, no matter which flavour of Geneforge you play... In G1 and G2, it is even better because Terror Vlish work. As Vlish level, it should also be noted that the slow lasts longer and longer. A level 30 or 40 Vlish that tags something, that something is going to be crippled for a very, very long time. Also, the poison duration seems to increase with age. Stuff stays green and loses hit points for an absurdly long period of time from a single tentacle poke. Also, and I can't explain why, but you might, since you are poking around under the hood, Vlish become very hard to hit at higher levels. I can't figure out why, but they can stand in a room full of pylons or whatever and everything just sort of misses them. Endgame enemies have a hard time connecting. Even golems have a hard time squishing my Vlish. Been saying this all along that Vlish are THE creation to get. And keep. :P Edit. Vlish and their low essence cost are perfect for Guardians needing an effective backup crew. [ Monday, May 29, 2006 08:52: Message edited by: Delicious Vlish ] -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 \| Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00
Slarty Raven v. Writing Desk Member # 261	written Monday, May 29 2006 08:58 Profile Homepage #2 Ancillary effects increase in strength the same way damage does. For creation attacks you get a level or two of slow/acid/poison/whatever for each point of Strength or skill. Dodge rate for creations is, I think, based entirely on Dex (and the Nimbleness bonus that Thahd Shades and Searing Artila get). So Vlish shouldn't be better at dodging than any other high level creation. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 \| Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Delicious Vlish His Mighty Tentacle Member # 627	written Monday, May 29 2006 09:10 Profile #3 quote: Originally written by Vlishnu: Ancillary effects increase in strength the same way damage does. For creation attacks you get a level or two of slow/acid/poison/whatever for each point of Strength or skill. Dodge rate for creations is, I think, based entirely on Dex (and the Nimbleness bonus that Thahd Shades and Searing Artila get). So Vlish shouldn't be better at dodging than any other high level creation. But they are. I can't explain it, which is why I was asking you. I was wondering if there was a hidden bonus. There is no explaining how they evade so many attacks. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 \| Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00
Slarty Raven v. Writing Desk Member # 261	written Monday, May 29 2006 09:33 Profile Homepage #4 Are you sure this just happens with Vlish? Weird. If this really happens, it must be hardcoded. Here's the Vlish script: All creations import creature 9 as a base, have creature type 1, and none of the resistances (phys, magic, fire, poison) are unique to Vlish. Are you sure it's not just that your Vlish were higher level than other creations you've had? [ Monday, May 29, 2006 09:34: Message edited by: Vlishnu ] -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 \| Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Delicious Vlish His Mighty Tentacle Member # 627	written Monday, May 29 2006 09:58 Profile #5 It might be that they are higher level than most of my creations. I am not sure. I just know that in every game I play my Vlish always wind up untouchable and I could never actually explain why. I was wondering if they receive a hidden bonus to dodge, or have some kind of hidden evasion system. I do tend to level my Vlish, like when I find a spawner, I let the spawner live and keep spawning. When Vlish hit the 40s or 50s, they are pretty much immortal. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 \| Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00
ReMeMbEr Agent Member # 6581	written Monday, May 29 2006 10:13 Profile Homepage #6 I like this discussion between two Vlishes. And, strangely, I never noticed the Vlish's overpower. :rolleyes: -------------------- Download Geneforge 4: Rebellion You have 6 posts. Nobody cares what you think. - Thuryl Wikipedia may be your friend, but UBB is not. - Dikiyoba Posts: 1310 \| Registered: Tuesday, December 20 2005 08:00
Slarty Raven v. Writing Desk Member # 261	written Monday, May 29 2006 10:53 Profile Homepage #7 If you observed this in G2, it's also possible things have changed. For one thing, spawned creations never give any XP in G3. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 \| Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Delicious Vlish His Mighty Tentacle Member # 627	written Monday, May 29 2006 11:00 Profile #8 Ok, that escaped my notice, the part of spawned creations not giving any exp... Er, wait, how can that be true when the critters in the caves of MoT give exp? -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 \| Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00
Slarty Raven v. Writing Desk Member # 261	written Monday, May 29 2006 11:19 Profile Homepage #9 Clarifications: creatures that the game engine spawns from spawners don't give any XP. Most spawners seem to have creations around them already when you get there, often a different flavor than what they spawn. Those creatures are not technically "spawned" so they give usual XP. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 \| Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Suspicious Vlish Infiltrator Member # 2245	written Monday, May 29 2006 12:05 Profile Homepage #10 Just two quick questions: quote: 10/21 Vlish 15 32 289 62 72 Slow/Pois Odd. I always thought that the Vlish's missile attack counted as 'magic'. quote: 10/28 Terror V. 45 39 381 65 75 Pois/Pois The Terror Vlish's poison seems to be only slightly more damaging than the Vlish's slow bolt. However, are we forgetting the poison damage done afterwards? Does a Terror Vlish's missile attack do continuous poison damage to a monster which has been hit? How long for, and for how much damage per round? -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 \| Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
Slarty Raven v. Writing Desk Member # 261	written Monday, May 29 2006 13:30 Profile Homepage #11 The Vlish's missile attack does count as magic (= energy). I was only listing special effects in that chart -- you'll notice I didn't list fire or ice flavored damage either. The Terror Vlish's poison attack does poison the victim (both melee like the regular Vlish, and missile). The amount of poison (and hence amount of damage) depends on attack strength. In general it's less immediately damaging than acid is. I wouldn't rely on it, and I'd certainly say it's much less useful than slowing is. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 \| Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Suspicious Vlish Infiltrator Member # 2245	written Monday, May 29 2006 17:03 Profile Homepage #12 Anti-Fairy: quote: The Terror Vlish's poison attack does poison the victim (both melee like the regular Vlish, and missile). The amount of poison (and hence amount of damage) depends on attack strength. In general it's less immediately damaging than acid is. I wouldn't rely on it, and I'd certainly say it's much less useful than slowing is. Perhaps. But when you look at your tabulated results, you notice that a terror vlish does only slightly more damage than regular vlish. So naturally, we think 'That's crap!'. However, I'm not sure if you factored in the poison damage done afterwards. On a high level vlish, the poison could do up to 50+ extra damage. -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 \| Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
Slarty Raven v. Writing Desk Member # 261	written Monday, May 29 2006 17:39 Profile Homepage #13 No, the damage calculations did not factor in poison or acid drips. I haven't seen poison damage go that high, but I haven't experimented with it that much either. The Terror Vlish is not crap at all; there are so few enemies that resist poison that it's useful merely for the poison elemental attack itself. Gazers, for example, have good resists against energy, fire and ice, and armor as well -- but they don't resist poison. Putting two Terrors at the head of a pack of Vlish would actually be a worthwhile investment in my book. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 \| Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Delicious Vlish His Mighty Tentacle Member # 627	written Monday, May 29 2006 17:43 Profile #14 The only enemy that Terror Vlish really do poorly against is Clawbugs of all kinds. A real pain in the tentacles if you ask me. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 \| Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00
Suspicious Vlish Infiltrator Member # 2245	written Monday, May 29 2006 19:53 Profile Homepage #15 Anti: quote: No, the damage calculations did not factor in poison or acid drips. I haven't seen poison damage go that high, but I haven't experimented with it that much either. Even on relatively low level terror vlish, secondary poison damage tends to look something like this: Round 2: 25 damage. Round 3: 15 damage. Round 4: 10 damage Round 5: 5 damage Round 6: 2 damage Round 7: 2 damage Round 7: 1 damage Round 8: 1 damage. Poison damage and duration apparently increase as your Vlishy increases, so it only gets better. -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 \| Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
Delicious Vlish His Mighty Tentacle Member # 627	written Monday, May 29 2006 21:03 Profile #16 I've seen poison damage that had to last for at least 20 rounds... I stood there waiting for quite some time for the poison damage to kick in on on a rather nasty eyebeastie. Doing 30 to 40 damage a turn for about half that time. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 \| Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00
Grain of Salt Infiltrator Member # 6652	written Tuesday, May 30 2006 01:01 Profile #17 So, how would we fix the Vlish? I'm thinking much less damage for both the long-range and melee attacks. Vlish should be specialized hitters, not durable damage dealers. -------------------- But I don't want to ride the elevator. Posts: 420 \| Registered: Sunday, January 8 2006 08:00
Suspicious Vlish Infiltrator Member # 2245	written Tuesday, May 30 2006 01:24 Profile Homepage #18 I don't think that the Vlish need to be fixed. Sure, if you specialize in them, they are quite powerful. So what? If you specialize in Strong Daze, you're quite powerful. -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 \| Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
Slarty Raven v. Writing Desk Member # 261	written Tuesday, May 30 2006 02:08 Profile Homepage #19 Vlish absolutely need to be fixed. They are far, far stronger than comparable creations. Flat-out power (as you suggest with the Strong Daze example) is only one issue; relative power is another issue. Right now Vlish outclass practically every second and third tier creation so badly that there's no reason to make the others. That's the definition of poor balance. Hmm... -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 \| Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Student of Trinity Electric Sheep One Member # 3431	written Tuesday, May 30 2006 10:33 Profile #20 I too have been a Vlish fan from the git go. I was keen on them in G1 just because they were unique, and discovered it paid off well. In G2 and G3 my Shapers always eventually trade up to Gazers, but in the third tier they only add a pair of Glaahks to a team of Vlish. The only complaint I've ever had with Vlish is that when you first get them they often run out of energy before they run out of enemies. Their tentacle-to-tentacle attack is not bad, but it takes time for them to run up and engage, and once in close quarters they are vulnerable. Once they level a bit their energy rises until this isn't a problem. But perhaps it would be another way to rein in Vlish, to limit their energy more. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 \| Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00