Suggestion for increased replay value: Add the three remaining classes

AuthorTopic: Suggestion for increased replay value: Add the three remaining classes
Shock Trooper
Member # 2599
Profile #0
The Geneforge series has 3 classes available, but the logic of the system makes 6 possible class combinations possible, as follows:

Class: Strong/Normal/Weak

Current

Guardian: Combat/Shaping/Magic
Agent: Magic/Combat/Shaping
Shaper: Shaping/Magic/Combat

Proposed

Champion: Combat/Magic/Shaping
Infiltrator: Magic/Shaping/Combat
Constructor: Shaping/Combat/Magic

In this scheme, the Champion could have the same health/energy/essence as the Guardian, or it could be rebalanced to trade off slightly reduced health for additional energy.

Similarly, the Inflitrator could match the Agent, or it could have slightly reduced health for slightly increased essence.

Finally, the Construtor could match the Shaper, or it could have slight reduced energy for slightly increased health.

I don't pretend to be good at naming, and I hope that someone else can suggest better names for the three proposed classes. But I needed some names for the purpose of discussion.

The Champion would be a good fit for strategies where combat is relied upon, and shaping is rarely if ever used.

The Infiltrator would be a good fit for stratagies where the Infiltrator accompanies and supports her creations.

The Constructor would be a good fit for missile shapers, or other combat oriented shapers.

Other new strategies would certainly be developed by creative players for these new character types.

I have not seen the code for Geneforge, but it seems likely that these 3 new classes could be added by mostly reusing code from the 3 original classes, so it would not double the class coding effort. (I am not trying to minimize the effort here, I am just pointing out that these 3 new classes are completely within the spirt of the 3 current classes, so I don't think totally new code is needed, compared to classes of a completely different nature than the current classes.)

This would be a great addition for G4, but would also be a very welcome retrofit for G1-G3. It would greatly enhance the replay value of these games. I would be willing to pay a few dollars per game for patchs to the Geneforge series that added these new classes to try out.

Jeff has to feed his family, and depending upon the effort, he may not be able to do this kind of improvement for free. Would anyone else find these new classes of sufficient interest to pay a few dollars for G1-G3 patches that make these classes available?
Posts: 201 | Registered: Thursday, February 6 2003 08:00
Warrior
Member # 5870
Profile #1
quote:
Originally written by Mike Montgomery:

The Geneforge series has 3 classes available, but the logic of the system makes 6 possible class combinations possible, as follows:

Class: Strong/Normal/Weak

Current

Guardian: Combat/Shaping/Magic
Agent: Magic/Combat/Shaping
Shaper: Shaping/Magic/Combat

Proposed

Champion: Combat/Magic/Shaping
Infiltrator: Magic/Shaping/Combat
Constructor: Shaping/Combat/Magic

In this scheme, the Champion could have the same health/energy/essence as the Guardian, or it could be rebalanced to trade off slightly reduced health for additional energy.

Similarly, the Inflitrator could match the Agent, or it could have slightly reduced health for slightly increased essence.

Finally, the Construtor could match the Shaper, or it could have slight reduced energy for slightly increased health.

I don't pretend to be good at naming, and I hope that someone else can suggest better names for the three proposed classes. But I needed some names for the purpose of discussion.

The Champion would be a good fit for strategies where combat is relied upon, and shaping is rarely if ever used.

The Infiltrator would be a good fit for stratagies where the Infiltrator accompanies and supports her creations.

The Constructor would be a good fit for missile shapers, or other combat oriented shapers.
classes available?

Delicious vilish was right. What matters is magic. Magic is what everyone need, while among the rest you only need choose one. So the champion will make guardian useless, while the constructor is useless himself/herself.
Posts: 122 | Registered: Tuesday, May 31 2005 07:00
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #2
I'm tempted by the aesthetics of completeness, but I don't think this will really work in Geneforge, because the lines between the classes aren't really all that sharp. Between a solo Guardian who invests in good buffing magic, and an Agent who boosts combat skills, there isn't much room for the Champion to be any different. Likewise a Shaper who pushes magic and an Agent who trains up a couple of creations squeeze out the Infiltrator, and Shaper who raises combat and Guardian who pumps shaping squeeze out the Constructor.

Yeah, I know, the idea is to make these new classes optimal versions of what would currently be sub-optimal builds. But these builds aren't so sub-optimal they can't work, even on Torment. If we're talking replay value, I'd actually rather have them as sub-optimal challenge builds, instead of base classes. As it is, I can play each game three times and feel I've basically done it, and that's nice; I don't want to have the nagging feeling of incompletion until dragging myself through six times.

Having said this, I once designed a pen-and-paper FRPG system with six classes based on permutation of strengths in three basic areas of strength, skill, and magic. What was perhaps different there was that a class had very strong preponderance in their first trait, and no ability at all in their third, so the distinctions were sharper. I liked the system because it seemed to organize the archetypes that I liked: Strength+Skill made a knight while Skill+Strength made a ninja, Magic+Strength made a battle mage while Magic+Skill made a sorceror. To complete the set I somehow decided that Strength+Magic made a shaman, and Skill+Magic made a sort of techno-mage. I never got either of these last two classes all that fleshed out, but I was intrigued to think of them joining the more familiar four on an equal footing. It would have been a neat system, if I had ever had time to develop it properly.

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We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #3
Those classes don't really add anything. In my mind, adding breadth without adding meaningful content is bad. The defining element of a class is really the skills that it has trouble accessing; this just xeroxes the others. So a Champion is basically just a Melee Agent, a Constructor is just a crappy version of a Shaper, and an Infiltrator is actually a very nice version of a Shaper -- if you just push one type of creation, you get a lot more skill point wise out of cheap magic skills than cheap shaping skills.

Anyway, we already know there's gonna be an option to play as a servile (hallelujah). So I wouldn't count on anything this bland.

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
Profile Homepage #4
I don't know how much my voice should count, since I don't really like GF all that much (by comparison, anyway), but I would not be opposed to adding these three. I'm not sure that I would significantly support it, but I wouldn't mind.

I beat GF1 on Torment without magic, I believe. I was a Shaper without any combat or magic skills at all. (I wasn't trying to challenge myself; I just had no idea how the system worked at that point.) So it can be done, and a system like this one might encourage people to try it more.

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

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The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #5
Shaping was hideously powerful in G1, about twice as powerful as in subsequent games, while magic was much weaker, both in terms of damage output and in terms of what spells actually existed. Magic wasn't king in G1.

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
Profile Homepage #6
I think I beat GF2 the same way.

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Agent
Member # 6581
Profile Homepage #7
Personally, I don't like the Magic in GFS. I prefer Melee fighting; the only type of magic I use is HC.

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Posts: 1310 | Registered: Tuesday, December 20 2005 08:00
Apprentice
Member # 7136
Profile #8
quote:
Proposed

Champion: Combat/Magic/Shaping
Infiltrator: Magic/Shaping/Combat
Constructor: Shaping/Combat/Magic

I think that would be an awesome idea for Geneforge 4! When I started playing Geneforge 3 one of the things I didnt like was how there was only three classes. I think upgrading it to six or maybe even more would add alot of, not just new gameplay and plot, but it would add a little bit of freshness to the game. I think also the ability to play as a different race or two would also be cool.

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'If it wern't for electricity we would all be watching tv by candle light' George Gobol
Posts: 12 | Registered: Tuesday, May 16 2006 07:00
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #9
Did anyone here ever play Realmz?

Does anyone else remember the giant pile of poop that resulted when Realmz doubled the number of races and classes available?

That's an extreme case, but less is more. Jeff understands that. It's one of his best qualities as a designer, I think.

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
Profile #10
The only thing I would really, truly love to see as an addition would be a tinkerer / mechanic / infiltrator type of class. High stealth abilities and the ability to construct simple to complex machines, lay mines, and construct booby traps.

The current types of golems would of course be to powerful, but I am sure that they could be toned down a bit to allow player construction, some kind of clockwork creation that you would first have to assemble the reagents for. Bits of stone, bars of metal, living tools, crystal fibres, etc, and have access to a shaping hall or an anvil or something to that effect. Upgradable of course over time... Starting out, Thahd type level of strength as a body guard, with upgrade directions in either offense or defense, but not both.

The Geneforge world is rapidly becoming mechanical, in case you haven't noticed. More and more Shaper types constructing golems, clockwork creations, etc. Machines are making more and more appearances in game. The Rebels in particular seem to have a lot of bio-mechanical technology, along with their microscopes, machines, factories, and vats. I honestly feel that the game would be missing out at some point if you did not invent a class to take advantage of these things. Soon, Shaping is bound to become a liability... With enemy Shapers being able to absorb creations, like you do with the Artilla in G3, and genetically created diseases, and various means of shaper control, strong factors on both sides, organic creations are going to be a hinderance, if not obsolete. The leveler of the playing field will involve mechanical creations, clockwork creations, things that can not be so readily controled or absorbed.

Mechafyoras reporting for duty.

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If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish.

Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish.
Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
Profile Homepage #11
I just checked. I played that GF2 game with the same fyora and drayk all the way through, without any magic or hand-to-hand combat skills at all.

I suspect that there's enough replay value in sub-optimal setups that adding new classes is not necessary, as SoT has indicated. I do like Vlish's idea, though.

[ Monday, May 29, 2006 13:38: Message edited by: Kelandon ]

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Agent
Member # 6581
Profile Homepage #12
quote:
Originally written by Vlishnu:

Did anyone here ever play Realmz?

Does anyone else remember the giant pile of poop that resulted when Realmz doubled the number of races and classes available?

That's an extreme case, but less is more. Jeff understands that. It's one of his best qualities as a designer, I think.

I liked the Realmz demo, but, in fact, I think you are right. The races/classes were too much to handle.

quote:
Originally written by Delicious Vlish:



The Geneforge world is rapidly becoming mechanical, in case you haven't noticed. More and more Shaper types constructing golems, clockwork creations, etc. Machines are making more and more appearances in game. The Rebels in particular seem to have a lot of bio-mechanical technology, along with their microscopes, machines, factories, and vats. I honestly feel that the game would be missing out at some point if you did not invent a class to take advantage of these things. Soon, Shaping is bound to become a liability... With enemy Shapers being able to absorb creations, like you do with the Artilla in G3, and genetically created diseases, and various means of shaper control, strong factors on both sides, organic creations are going to be a hinderance, if not obsolete. The leveler of the playing field will involve mechanical creations, clockwork creations, things that can not be so readily controled or absorbed.

Mechafyoras reporting for duty.

Them mechanical progress is here too... I wonder if Jeff do this for a purpose or it's just a coincidence...

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Posts: 1310 | Registered: Tuesday, December 20 2005 08:00
Warrior
Member # 7002
Profile #13
Hasn't Jeff said there will be five classes in GF4?

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Polaris
Posts: 193 | Registered: Thursday, April 6 2006 07:00
Warrior
Member # 7002
Profile #14
Dangit. Double clicked. Stupid flood protection.

[ Tuesday, May 30, 2006 05:48: Message edited by: Mr.Bookworm ]

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Polaris
Posts: 193 | Registered: Thursday, April 6 2006 07:00
Agent
Member # 6581
Profile Homepage #15
quote:
Originally written by Mr.Bookworm:

Hasn't Jeff said there will be five classes in GF4?
No. He said: "I like the system of three classes, Agent/Guardian/Shaper works weel.". Something like this.

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You have 6 posts. Nobody cares what you think. - Thuryl

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Posts: 1310 | Registered: Tuesday, December 20 2005 08:00
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #16
Magma, you really need to stop answering questions that you don't know the answers to!

Jeff wrote here that:
"There are five basic rebel character types. Four of them are human."

He wrote in a newsletter that there will be an option to play a servile.

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Agent
Member # 6581
Profile Homepage #17
quote:
Originally written by Anti-Fairy:

Magma, you really need to stop answering questions that you don't know the answers to!

Jeff wrote here that:
"There are five basic rebel character types. Four of them are human."

He wrote in a newsletter that there will be an option to play a servile.

Yeah, there are character types, not classes! :P
It was just a misunderstanding (I know, it isn't written correctly, but you have understood, right?), anyway.

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Download Geneforge 4: Rebellion

You have 6 posts. Nobody cares what you think. - Thuryl

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Posts: 1310 | Registered: Tuesday, December 20 2005 08:00
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #18
I think it's a safe bet that Jeff was using "type" and "class" interchangeably in that sentence.

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00