Magic of Avernum Universe: Combined with Technology? (Slight Spoliers.)

Author	Topic: Magic of Avernum Universe: Combined with Technology? (Slight Spoliers.)
Aurabolt Apprentice Member # 8093	written Thursday, February 15 2007 09:06 Profile #0 I wasn't sure where to put this since it also involves an official BoA scenario along with the other three, so I decided on this one. I started to realize this after I saw the first description of the Golem. Considering how the monster is programmed in its creation instead of magically controlled by a primary caster, (since in Avernum, most of them are likely dead.) the idea of a world where magic and science are combined starts to form. Other times this has been rendered likely is in Mortax's final days in A2, when those two wizards were studying him along with gaining information about the caves. Alchemy is also a form of science, laced with magical ability. But that's certainly too easy to see at the beginning, anyone could have. It was the events of Skylark Vale which really opened my eyes. That place was certainly a research facility as well as a school. They had innovations in that place that are more technologically-based than any other; the monsters, the still-working systems, the after-effects.... I wonder if they are combined, at odds with natural forces of magic in the Avernum universe, or something else I haven't thought of. Perhaps someone could make a scenario about it. -------------------- "Hi, I'm Spider!"- The funniest, most insane part of all Avernum/Exile. Kudos to Vogel. RIP Mortax. I will always remember you. Always looking for a scenario to take a look at. A pretty good player who is looking to become a game reviewer. More than happy to help out designers with some player reaction, if they want it. Posts: 10 | Registered: Wednesday, February 14 2007 08:00
Ephesos Law Bringer Member # 4153	written Thursday, February 15 2007 09:38 Profile Homepage #1 I see your point, but at the same time I'm willing to say that it's not so much magic and modern-day 'science'. I see it more as magic combined with herbal and mechanical lore. As for alchemy, in reality it's more of a pseudoscience, based on a set of flawed principles. In the game, it's really just botany and light chemistry, not necessarily knowing any of the 'why' behind it. Sages and alchemists just know what to do and how to do it, not specifically why it works. EDIT: I realized I wasn't being very clear about my point. I think that there is science of a sort, just not much technological advancement outside of magic. [ Thursday, February 15, 2007 09:39: Message edited by: Ephesos ] -------------------- Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice. I hate undead. I really, really, really, really hate undead. With a passion. Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00
Or else o'erleap. Law Bringer Member # 335	written Thursday, February 15 2007 09:47 Profile Homepage #2 All academics of the Avernum world seem to be based around magic. Magic is the frontier of human (and vahnatai, and slith, and nephil) knowledge. There's really no need for physics and engineering when magic can do it more easily and natural laws are so easily suspended by said magic. —Alorael, who can see Newton's fourth law now: "The preceding three laws are to be ignored whenever a wizard did it." Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Aurabolt Apprentice Member # 8093	written Thursday, February 15 2007 10:21 Profile #3 Certainly, but don't forget that Potions are considered magical items, meaning smoe magic was involved in their creation, and magic can only go against the natural laws for so long; the Orb of Tharlni only works for five miles before it sends it's users floating to the ground. Dispel Barrier works in the principles of two equal forces working against one another to cancel each other out; another law of physics. That's why it casts so much for a Mage Level 10 spell. I'm not saying that Magic in this universe also doesn't have it's supernatural aspect; it's definately more prominent in Call Beast, all the story-based teleportations one does, Control Mind, Demon summoning, the Arcane and Divine spells, and all those magical monsters. I'm just saying that there is a sizable amount of science involved in the magic here, or that it follows natural laws as all forces do to some degree. [ Thursday, February 15, 2007 10:26: Message edited by: Aurabolt ] -------------------- "Hi, I'm Spider!"- The funniest, most insane part of all Avernum/Exile. Kudos to Vogel. RIP Mortax. I will always remember you. Always looking for a scenario to take a look at. A pretty good player who is looking to become a game reviewer. More than happy to help out designers with some player reaction, if they want it. Posts: 10 | Registered: Wednesday, February 14 2007 08:00
Or else o'erleap. Law Bringer Member # 335	written Thursday, February 15 2007 13:45 Profile Homepage #4 Some magic is only temporary. Force barriers last forever. So do many magic items, portals, and gizmos in ancient ruins. The Orb of Thralni only works for so long, but I don't see how that makes it an less physically questionable. Dispel Barrier is based on magic, not semi-physics arcanobabble. Science in Avernum is magic. It has rules, obviously, or there wouldn't be labs, schools, libraries, and the like. It even involves things that are similar to our sciences. I just don't think Avernum is likely to have any natural sciences or natural philosophers anytime soon when the unnatural sciences are so much more popular and profitable. —Alorael, who assumes that being able to blow people up is also a draw. Nobody picks on the nerd once he has fireballs to throw around. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Randomizer Law Bringer Member # 6785	written Thursday, February 15 2007 19:46 Profile #5 BoA scenario Valley of the Dying Things had several science technolgy devices that sometimes used magic as a component. The waste disposal systems had a machine that used portals to transport the waste and release quickfire that was stored in rooms waiting for the door to open. The Vahnatia used crystals as the basis for machines. The mind that controlled the golems and the factory in A3 is the closest to science technology. But Alorael is correct that magic was the main science of Avernum and that mechanical developement was kept back because of it. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00
Synergy Shaper Member # 6292	written Thursday, February 15 2007 22:08 Profile #6 Regardless of how Jeff explains the presence and fuction of things in the Avernum realm, experientially for me, parts of the games distracted and disappointed me. For all practical visceral purposes, I was fighting robots, manipulating laser beams, and visiting aliens undergound, and none of this felt fantastical to me. It felt like sci-fi. I like my fantasy to be fantasy. I could have done without golems, factories, and underground extra-terrestrials. -S- -------------------- A4 Items • A4 Singleton • G4 Items • G4 Forging • G4 Infiltrator • NR Items • The Lonely Celt Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00
Aurabolt Apprentice Member # 8093	written Thursday, February 15 2007 22:08 Profile #7 Well, ok. I couldn't help but notice it after Skylark Vale, but if magic is defined as a science, then is technology based off of those findings in this universe? Certainly, it's possible that magic would open the door to new ideas and technical methods. The research on that massive acid spell of the 4th floor of the Lower School is proof enough... Also, since Avernum is nowhere near as magically-limied as the Empire, they should be the premier center of all recent magical research in this universe, and with such allies as the Vahnatiai at their side, far beyond those on the surface. That may explain the increase in magical ability in Avernum 3 that the mages got... -------------------- "Hi, I'm Spider!"- The funniest, most insane part of all Avernum/Exile. Kudos to Vogel. RIP Mortax. I will always remember you. Always looking for a scenario to take a look at. A pretty good player who is looking to become a game reviewer. More than happy to help out designers with some player reaction, if they want it. Posts: 10 | Registered: Wednesday, February 14 2007 08:00
Or else o'erleap. Law Bringer Member # 335	written Thursday, February 15 2007 22:20 Profile Homepage #8 The Empire is much more controlling of magic than Avernum, but it also has far more schools, far more mages, and far more money for research. Avernum just has an open atmosphere and the rubble left from when their center of magical learning was eaten by demons. Britannica versus Wikipedia? —Alorael, who thinks that there have already been plenty of technologies based on magic. The vahnatai are especially good at it as you can see in the Filth Factory, the Golem Factory/ToSF, and the New Factory. The humans will catch up eventually, though. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
upon mars Canned Member # 7704	written Friday, February 16 2007 00:06 Profile #9 Vahnatai are naturally talented with magic and are an ancient race that lived probably before the first humans appeared appeared so they had a lot of time to evolve their technology. They probably even breed magic into themselves. Humans have not so far reached the level of the vahnatai and they never will because each step the empire and avernum takes the vahnatai push them and take a run. -------------------- You can jump off a bridge, fire a gun in your mouth, drink poison,or going in to the tiger's pit but you will still end up dead it's a mater of time and how . Posts: 312 | Registered: Sunday, November 26 2006 08:00