The "Linear vs. Open-Ended" thread...?
| Author | Topic: The "Linear vs. Open-Ended" thread...? |
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Apprentice
Member # 3084
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written Wednesday, July 9 2003 08:19
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Does anyone remember the name of the poll/thread concerning the relative merits of linear vs. open-ended scenario plots? I’ve punished the poor Search function. I've combed the General, BoE, and BoA boards back to their beginnings. I’ve begun to wonder if I didn’t actually see the thread somewhere else entirely. So, to prevent retreading the same ground here, can anyone give me a pointer to that poll and conversation? (If that thread isn’t here to be continued, then I’d love to discuss the pros and cons of purely open-ended scenarios as compared to those of scenarios whose plots are more “hard wired.”) Posts: 37 | Registered: Monday, June 9 2003 07:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2238
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written Wednesday, July 9 2003 08:45
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Only the beginning: Open-ended scenarios require much more build time, as there is more material being put. Linear scenarios have to made sure they are working right, that indeed everything works in the line it should. I personally prefer (designing) linear scenarios. That way you make the user does what you want. Kind of like a D&D Dungeon Master, except not that attatched. -------------------- DEMON PLAY, DEMON OUT! Posts: 1582 | Registered: Wednesday, November 13 2002 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Wednesday, July 9 2003 13:16
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Some major choices are good, but it's nearly impossible to make a scenario that will account for every choice a player might make. Rather than having a frustrating open-ended scenario where most actions have no effects, I'd rather have only a few options that are very obviously turning points, at least in retrospect. —Alorael, who would say nothing is less entertaining than the ultimate open-ended scenario, better known as the scenario with no plot. Each action you take is as important as any other action you might take, but none are significant at all! Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Triad Mage
Member # 7
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written Wednesday, July 9 2003 15:28
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I prefer linear sccenarios to open-ended, but having some side quests does not an open-ended scenario make. Exile I is what I'd consider an open-ended scenario, along with Chapter 4 of Exile II. Linearity is good, especially when the party is involved in something vital to the scenario, like in An Apology or Requelle's Nightmare. I don't enjoy scenarios like TWotS. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 3084
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written Wednesday, July 9 2003 15:29
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Thanks, EEP_Karzoth and Alorael. I agree with both of you to a degree. (Since no one has yet mentioned another thread pertaining to this subject, I’ll weigh in here.) [EDIT: Thanks also to Drakefyre … he must have posted while I was composing this mound o’ babble.] :P Maybe I shouldn’t have used the term “purely open-ended,” because that implies a scenario with no motivation whatsoever. I suppose what I meant by “open-ended” was a scenario like Avernum: there weren’t chapters, and the progress of the story was governed solely by your completion of quests. If you wished to wander for years without actually doing anything, the world wouldn’t end. So, assuming that both are well written and that the game mechanics are good, which is the more desirable kind of plot: Open-ended … scenarios in which you may accomplish quests in any order that you can survive them, and in which quests never “expire.” In other words, you have all the time in the world to complete every quest, big or small, be it “fetch the turnips” or “kill the CLICHE.” (…My personal acronym for Convenient, Lazy Incarnation Characterizing Hellish Evil.) Linear … in which you must complete each major quest before learning about the next. These kinds of scenarios might be broken into chapters, but not necessarily. In this kind of adventure, you never really do anything that alters the course of the future plot in any way. (It could be argued, of course, that you don’t really influence future plot in most open-ended stories, either.) Obviously many RPGs fall somewhere between the two extremes. Avernum 2, for instance, had four chapters, but A) Chapter Four was really one huge, open-ended epic, and B) if you hadn’t completed them before debarking for Vahnatai land, you could always go back and do quests that most people finish during Chapters 1-3. I’m most intrigued by the type of scenario that Alorael describes (and it’s the kind I hope to create when BoA finally hits the PC): one in which there are some manageable number of major turning points. If you take one course instead of another, the story from that point onward is utterly different. If you formally swear allegiance to one faction, the other faction’s subplots and quests are unavailable to you from that point forward. I’m sure that this has been done before — I really should register BoE to play the great stuff that’s out there. I only mention it all because this is the stuff that interests me most about game design: the potential to create a truly interactive game. More than anything, I’d love to see significant choices, branching stories, and repercussions for actions (both good and bad). I’ll shut up now — for a little while, at least. :) [ Wednesday, July 09, 2003 15:42: Message edited by: Churl ] Posts: 37 | Registered: Monday, June 9 2003 07:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2238
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written Wednesday, July 9 2003 16:41
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Churl, your mind works wonders. And I love the CLICHE thing! Just a side note: I feel the over-all purpose of linear scenarios would be to compel the user to complete what's next. Excite him! "WOW! You've just slain this massive beasty CLICHE! A key falls and you now need to take it to a door. But which one?" Get the idea? One needs to make the player feel like something has been accomplished and there is a sense of urgencie (sp...) to move foward with the plot. Open-ended just says: "WOW! You've killed the CLICHE! Go back to Fort Over-used-name to collect your reward..." That, to me, takes the fun out. Woopee... more gold... I've seen a lot of people leaning towards the open-ended side; they see it as a chance to let the player do what he wants. And that's fine, it has it's place. But a realistic release-age time limits one's ability to create these. Edit: I mean not to brag, but I feel my scenario trilogy I'm planning in my spare time, is rather inventive. I don't want to give my ideas out, but let's just say that the choice made in the first chapter leads to what you'll be downloading next. Even more, it'll be pretty much to same maps for the two alternate sides. Now wonder, and wonder hard at what that's supposed to mean. Then maybe you can tell me I'm gunna go fix my alias name... [ Wednesday, July 09, 2003 16:55: Message edited by: [E.E.P.] Karzoth ] -------------------- DEMON PLAY, DEMON OUT! Posts: 1582 | Registered: Wednesday, November 13 2002 08:00 |
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Triad Mage
Member # 7
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written Thursday, July 10 2003 03:03
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Linear scenarios like Of Good And Evil, Nephil's Gambit, and even Tatterdemalion all have a plot that branches off and can be changed based on the actions of the players. It makes games much more enjoyable, even though straight linear scenarios like Chains and An Apology are excellent as well. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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BoE Posse
Member # 15
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written Thursday, July 10 2003 03:40
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Here's a semi-relevant article on this subject. -------------------- All that we see, or seem, is but a dream within a dream. Visit the Louvre, the BoA Graphics Database at http://www.personal.psu.edu/bxb11/boa/louvre/ Visit Alexandria, the BoE Scenario Database at http://www.personal.psu.edu/bxb11/boe/alexandriajs/ Posts: 653 | Registered: Thursday, September 27 2001 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 73
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written Thursday, July 10 2003 08:21
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quote:Tatterdemalion is open-ended, actually. There's the three dungeons in Triane which can be done in any order, to the best of my knowledge, then there's the desert and the swamp, both of which have many side quests. I liked the snake cult out in the desert, actually. Don't ask why. [ Thursday, July 10, 2003 08:22: Message edited by: The Almighty Doer of Stuff ] -------------------- My Myspace, with some of my audial and visual art The Lyceum - The Headquarters of the Blades designing community The Louvre - The Blades of Avernum graphics database Alexandria - The Blades of Exile Scenario database BoE Webring - Self explanatory Polaris - Free porn here Odd Todd - Fun for the unemployed (and everyone else too) They Might Be Giants - Four websites for one of the greatest bands in existance -------------------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 Posts: 2957 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 3084
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written Thursday, July 10 2003 18:58
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Thanks again to everyone who is contributing to this topic. And thanks especially to Karzoth for the compliment — the proof, of course, will rest in whether or not I can walk the walk: that is, actually design, complete, and release a scenario that doesn’t stink on ice. Until then, I’m nothing more than a prolific purveyor of vaporware. :P The Lyceum link that Void Master posted was a good one — in fact, there are many, many great articles in the designer’s forum. I tend to prefer more strongly-plotted stories over free-form, “what should I do next” adventures. I wouldn’t say that I like “linear” plots, however, because I think that RPGs can — and usually should — do more than simply propel players through a single, traditional narrative arc. Certainly when traditional arcs form great stories, as do Drakefyre’s examples of “linear-done-well,” there exist rewards other than influence over plot. Still, I argue that their malleability of plot makes the RPG a unique medium. Think about it … movies don’t let you choose how they end, and aside from simple Choose Your Own Adventure-style novelties, books don’t either. Interactive theater might be the closest analog to RPGs, but tell me: when was the last time you attended interactive theater? ;) Before this get too long-winded — too late — I’ll try to sum up. We’ve fetched countless potion ingredients for unnumbered alchemists. We’ve saved uncounted towns from teeming throngs of bandits, undead, sliths, nephilim, ogres, giants, slimes, and orcs-by-any-other-name-who-smell-as-foul. We’ve killed dungeons and dungeons’ worth of nameless, faceless minions of a gaggle of dreaded demon lords. We’ve even faced down those same CLICHEs on their respective home turf: inevitably dark, dreadful fortresses at the bung-end of oblivion. AND I’M NOT COMPLAINING … obviously this formula is used so often because it’s satisfying; a well-loved tale worth revisiting. All I’m asking for — and hoping to create — is something different: a break from the tried and true. Something quirky that not everyone will like and which, frankly, many will hate. I’ve watched, and enjoyed, plenty of The A-Team. Give me a little Twin Peaks for variety. (So much for “summing up.”) RPGs have always allowed me to kill and fetch and kill, and then fetch and kill, and then kill and fetch some more. That’s fine, but what I really want to do is have my character: — win over (or enrage) a crowd with a joke — play both sides against the middle — run for public office — experience at least a convincing approximation of love … — … or elation — … or sorrow. (As Austin Powers said, “…And I want a toilet made of solid gold, but it’s just not in the cards, baby!”) Still, it can’t hurt to dream, can it? :) Important: please realize that I don’t claim to be an expert game designer. I have no BoE scenarios to my name. I found the secret dot, but I didn’t help Warren Robinett hide it in the blinking catacombs. I’ve worked in the games industry, but I’m certainly no Miyamoto or Molyneaux or Carmack. There isn’t even a single “M” in my name, for God’s sake … I’m hopeless! I’m just someone who thinks about this stuff more than is probably good for my sanity. :eek: [ Thursday, July 10, 2003 19:01: Message edited by: Churl ] Posts: 37 | Registered: Monday, June 9 2003 07:00 |
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Triad Mage
Member # 7
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written Friday, July 11 2003 03:45
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For the last four items on your list: 3) Play Election 4) Play Quintessence 5) Play any number of scenarios 6) Play An Apology, Redemption, or more of Alcritas' scenarios -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2238
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written Friday, July 11 2003 04:02
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Relating to Churl's post: Hey you mentioned Carmack! That suprised me for some reason... most people here aren't really gamers... they're just casual players of Spiderweb games. But yea... that's off topic. As far as doing the stuff on your list, besides what Drakey's said (which is correct), you should search for the newerly (if thats a word) released scenarios. I remember a BOE topic not too long ago about questions for jokes to be put in a scenario. Meaning, of course, that if that scenario was finished, it did give a chance for the player (i think) to give a night of stand up. Comedy that is... Correct me if I'm wrong... I usually am about BOE these days. I don't hang around the BOE forum part so don't expect this all to be right. -------------------- DEMON PLAY, DEMON OUT! Posts: 1582 | Registered: Wednesday, November 13 2002 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 3084
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written Friday, July 11 2003 04:37
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Thanks again, everyone … and I’ll make a point of playing those scenarios, Drakefyre. At the risk of making a semi-spammy post, I’ll keep this (mercifully) short and just say that I’m ordering BoE today. I’d prefer to learn what’s on the scene already rather than think I'm planning something original, but later find out that I’m not. See you in Exile. :cool: Posts: 37 | Registered: Monday, June 9 2003 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 73
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written Friday, July 11 2003 12:55
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quote:No. It was a five-star restaurant, with a stage where stand-up comedians, musicians, etc performed. It was going to be in my scenario. Needless to say, I couldn't figure out how to make it work. It seemed okay at first, until I noticed about 5000 problems with it. Oh well. -------------------- My Myspace, with some of my audial and visual art The Lyceum - The Headquarters of the Blades designing community The Louvre - The Blades of Avernum graphics database Alexandria - The Blades of Exile Scenario database BoE Webring - Self explanatory Polaris - Free porn here Odd Todd - Fun for the unemployed (and everyone else too) They Might Be Giants - Four websites for one of the greatest bands in existance -------------------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 Posts: 2957 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2238
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written Friday, July 11 2003 15:20
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Oh. Well see I told you I probably wasn't right. And yea the idea didn't seem like it could work that well. But it was a GOOD idea so I had high hopes. Goes to show that most good ideas usually won't work... (you guessed it, I'm a pessimist) -------------------- DEMON PLAY, DEMON OUT! Posts: 1582 | Registered: Wednesday, November 13 2002 08:00 |