What are the sort of things BoA will let you do?
| Author | Topic: What are the sort of things BoA will let you do? |
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Warrior
Member # 126
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written Monday, June 23 2003 07:16
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I'm fascinated by the prospect of making my own widdle adventure, and I was wondering what kinds of things BoA might let someone do... Y'know, will it be possible to create day/night cycles? How would one go about making new tiles and character graphics? Could stealth skills be somehow created, or would you need to carefully set up any 'sneaking into the mansion of the rich jerk' quests/missions to make it SEEM like you're sneaking around?(using special choice boxes and all) Would weather effects be programmable, or would I have to use pop-up message boxes for those, too? If day/night cycles can be made, can there be certain special events/wandering monsters that occur only at night? Oh, yeah, and one more thing, it IS possible to have certain towns get hostile to you if a certain skill value is high enough, yeah? (I'm thinking mage/priest spells here, since I'm planning to have certain towns fearful of magic users or ruled by magic users who don't want competition.) Or is it still much too early for me to be asking these questions? -------------------- Fly beyond the ocean, over the mountains, past the moon and across the face of the sun, never to come home again. Posts: 161 | Registered: Monday, October 8 2001 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 3040
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written Monday, June 23 2003 07:49
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Not too early at all. check out http://www.spiderwebsoftware.com/avernum/blades/ for some answers, and Brett Bixler's Louvre has (I think) instructions about making graphics. -------------------- 5.0.1.0.0.0.0.1.0... Posts: 508 | Registered: Thursday, May 29 2003 07:00 |
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Triad Mage
Member # 7
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written Monday, June 23 2003 09:40
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quote: -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 3084
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written Monday, June 23 2003 12:20
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(Post-search update: these ideas were also explored in the “Sequel Support” thread on this board, so I don’t claim any great innovation here.) Following up on an idea I posted in the “What feature that the Avernum series lacked would you most like to see in BoA?” thread… Scenario-to-scenario persistence might be achieved through codes/passwords that are imparted at the end of the earlier scenario, then input during the first encounter in a new scenario. Consider an example with which we’re all familiar. (This will be simplified just to illustrate a point … actual codes should probably be less easily guessable.) Imagine that we want to track the major “stuff done” — i.e., the game-winning quests — from Avernum to Avernum 2. In other words, imagine that we want to seed Avernum 2’s Stuff Done table with the state of our Avernum game when we left it. *** NOTE: No, Avernum and Avernum 2 do not do this. I’m merely using them as an example to illustrate my proposed idea. *** First consider the possible outcomes of an Avernum victory: =============================================== A2 Entry Grah-Hoth Found route Hawthorne Code killed? to surface? killed? =============================================== 0 -- -- -- Posts: 37 | Registered: Monday, June 9 2003 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 3040
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written Monday, June 23 2003 14:09
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You could bypass the whole parsing step and realize that a combination of Y's and N's could be represented as a binary number. Three binary digits in sequence would be simply represented as a number from 0 to 7. To get back a value from that number, (assuming we can use bitwise operations in the BoA scripting system, which we may or may not be able to do) you would AND the given code with a certain number to see if an event has occured. In Churl's example, at the beginning of the sequel scenario, you would AND the code with 1 to see if Hawthorne was killed, you would AND the code with 2 to see if the surface was reached, and you would AND the code with 4 to see if Grah-Hoth was killed. In each of the cases the number would be compared to zero: a zero in each case would mean the event did not occur, anything else would mean it did. -------------------- 5.0.1.0.0.0.0.1.0... Posts: 508 | Registered: Thursday, May 29 2003 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 3084
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written Monday, June 23 2003 14:30
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wizardr6 is absolutely right. There are many more efficient (and better obfuscated) ways to mask persistent variables … I was just trying to keep my example straightforward. Note that this kind of masking could be used to carry forward more than just quest completion. Among other things, you could retain special items gained in a previous scenario, provided that A) the previous scenario knows how to encode your inventory, and B) the subsequent scenario knows how to “unpack” those codes. Again, all of this is optional, and it is certainly not necessary to create a good series of scenarios. It’s just an idea for a way to personalize the entry points of mid-story installments in a series. Note also: if scripts to accomplish this kind of persistence were well modularized, adventures could be released incrementally: Chapter 1, Chapter 2, etc. A designer wouldn’t have to create, test, proofread, and debug his or her entire epic all at once. Serial releases of big stories’ “chapters” could build player enthusiasm for a series, as well as give novice designers manageable milestones toward which to strive. Also, a word on the (inevitable) hacking of carry-over codes. It’s likely that some percentage of players will try to hack the carry-over codes in order to give themselves better equipment, more completed quests, etc. I say, let them. This isn’t a MMORPG; they’re not cheating anyone else. If they have fun deciphering your variable masks, great. …All of this is just my two cents’ worth. [ Monday, June 23, 2003 14:42: Message edited by: Churl ] Posts: 37 | Registered: Monday, June 9 2003 07:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2238
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written Monday, June 23 2003 17:45
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I agree with that last part. Of course I've always felt that way. You always hear about games/patches/mods that have their release dates held back because "balancing" the weapons is needed. Well if there is no one to take advantage of, then why? ...I'm not at all saying that Jeff is holding things back to balance. So don't take it that way. -------------------- DEMON PLAY, DEMON OUT! Posts: 1582 | Registered: Wednesday, November 13 2002 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 3084
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written Tuesday, June 24 2003 09:31
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Understood. When game makers talk about “balancing,” I think they usually mean ensuring that the mix and power of abilities, weapons, classes, spells, etc. lead to a fun game for everyone’s play style. For example, if you play a game that is a tough challenge when your character is a fighter, but a breeze when s/he’s a mage, then it’s unbalanced. This is a bit different from the unbalance that arises from cheats. Whether those cheats are sanctioned (like Avernum’s character editor), or unsanctioned (like the save-file hacks that people discover), they all vary from the designer’s model of “official” game play. To make a long story short — too late — I think that designers try to balance “official” games across most normal play styles. They might provide user-friendly interfaces for those who wish to (ahem) “tweak” their games, but a tweaker usually tweaks with the understanding that s/he’s messing with the intended difficulty/balance of the game. Like you, EEP_Karzoth, I also think that this is fine for single-player games. We’re all playing to have fun … if a person has fun by making the game slightly easier for him/herself, then what’s the harm? After all, no one awards prizes for winning, and we’re not competing with anyone else. Online games, of course, require a level playing field for the sake of fairness and enjoyment for all, but in single-player games, I say “hack away” if you’re so inclined. (Just don’t go bragging about how your first-level fighter took down the Empire single-handedly… :) ) Posts: 37 | Registered: Monday, June 9 2003 07:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2238
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written Tuesday, June 24 2003 10:03
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All too true... I personally like to cheat in single-player games sometimes (not all the time!). Especially first-person shooters. It's funner for me to do things unheard of. Like leaping from skyscrapers with guns blazing... and hitting the ground without a scratch. I dunno... But multiplayer games definatly: cheating to me is a No-No! If you're not good enough to compete with non-cheaters online without cheating, then go play something you're better at. I've always felt as if Jeff did a great job a making things balanced. Which is why I think he should look into developing a multiplayer game in the future. Not massivly-multiplayer, but multiplayer. Like Diablo2's style or similar. It shall be great fun! uh... god... waisted post. Hey I like this Churl guy! -------------------- DEMON PLAY, DEMON OUT! Posts: 1582 | Registered: Wednesday, November 13 2002 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 3084
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written Tuesday, June 24 2003 11:30
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Thanks, EEP_Karzoth — I appreciate that! It’s tough to dive into a new message board, especially with my tendency toward long-windedness. On the plus side, nearly everyone here is very literate and open minded, so hopefully they’ll tolerate my … um … meandering stream of consciousness. :) Getting back to the thread, does anyone know the latest on BoA’s variable storage capabilities? Planning scenarios would be easier if I had a rough idea of what (and how much) I can expect to store. For the record, I’ve read Jeff’s official “What to expect…” write-up; I guess I’m just looking for more specifics. Of course, I’m sure I’m not alone in this. Thanks again for the welcome, EEP_Karzoth. Posts: 37 | Registered: Monday, June 9 2003 07:00 |
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Triad Mage
Member # 7
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written Tuesday, June 24 2003 14:41
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What exactly do you mean by storage? Characters will not be able to transport variables between scenarios. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 3084
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written Tuesday, June 24 2003 14:46
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Oops, sorry … I should have transitioned between subjects more clearly. I meant in-scenario variables: whether they’ll exist, and if so, how many we’re allowed, their scope, typing, arrays or no arrays, etc. Sorry for the misunderstanding! [ Tuesday, June 24, 2003 15:20: Message edited by: Churl ] Posts: 37 | Registered: Monday, June 9 2003 07:00 |
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Triad Mage
Member # 7
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written Wednesday, June 25 2003 00:43
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Yes, we will be able to have variables, although only string and integer, I think. There'd be scenario-wide, town-wide, and outdoor section-wide variables. I doubt that we'd have arrays, but to create something similar wouldn't be too hard. I'm looking forward to seeing scenarios from you, Churl. ;) -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 2570
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written Wednesday, June 25 2003 07:09
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Scripting=Half/godly power? I don't know,but i somehow suspect that the scripts will allow you do make a lot of stuff you couldn't make with nodes,like special spell actualy resulting the caster shooting those fireballs at you.That would be oh-so-cool.And BoE Posses would like it.And so would i. -------------------- Speed and power! Galaxies explode! And Kekkonen shall descent to punish us all! It's armageddon,it's armageddon! It's the Day of Kekkonen! "But Dirt Dragon rulz 0k.Dirt Dragon would HäX0r HAL 9000 in 10 seconds if he would get a keyboard!!!!111111YAY DITR DRAONG RULZ 0K YAY LOL OMG WTF!!!!!!11111" Join our *wonderfull* "party" at The Club of All! Join our *lovely* Cult at Dominions X! Iä, Iä my brother... Posts: 166 | Registered: Sunday, February 2 2003 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 3084
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written Wednesday, June 25 2003 07:11
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That’s great to hear, Drakefyre. That's mainly what I was hoping to learn: first, that there will be variables, and with that known, whether they’ll be typed and/or scoped. I appreciate the vote of confidence … like every other first-time designer, I’ll have to make sure that my big plans don’t get ahead of my ability (and available time) to pull them off. Out of curiosity, how long is the usual gap between Mac and PC releases of Spiderweb games? I just know that January (or whenever) will roll around, and I’ll be insanely jealous of you Mac owners! :( Posts: 37 | Registered: Monday, June 9 2003 07:00 |
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FAQSELF
Member # 3
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written Wednesday, June 25 2003 08:09
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quote:It's usually a few weeks or a month from when the Mac version comes out to when the PC version goes into beta testing. Beta testing takes 6-10 weeks, depending on the size and complexity of the game. In other words, 2-3 months total. -------------------- A few cats short of a kitten pot pie... Radioactive cats have 18 half-lives. Check out a great source for information on Avernum 2, Nethergate, and Subterra: Zeviz's page. Finally, there's my Geneforge FAQ, Geneforge 2 FAQ, and Geneforge 3 FAQ. Posts: 2831 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2238
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written Wednesday, June 25 2003 09:31
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Schro, you sure? I didn't realize it took that long between. It certainly didn't seem like that for A3. Of course, BOA is a little more complex... but I still doubt 2-3 months is correct. Of course I could be wrong. And probably am. But I say a month at tops! Here's to the best! *chugs* [ Wednesday, June 25, 2003 09:31: Message edited by: EEP_Karzoth ] -------------------- DEMON PLAY, DEMON OUT! Posts: 1582 | Registered: Wednesday, November 13 2002 08:00 |
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FAQSELF
Member # 3
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written Wednesday, June 25 2003 11:15
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Well, A3 came out mid-July for the Mac? It was released for windows Sept 19th. Geneforge came out somewhat before Christmas 2001 for the Mac. I know the Windows version came out late March. 2-3 months seems reasonable based on that. -------------------- A few cats short of a kitten pot pie... Radioactive cats have 18 half-lives. Check out a great source for information on Avernum 2, Nethergate, and Subterra: Zeviz's page. Finally, there's my Geneforge FAQ, Geneforge 2 FAQ, and Geneforge 3 FAQ. Posts: 2831 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Triad Mage
Member # 7
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written Thursday, June 26 2003 01:42
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Think of it this way: when you get BoA, you'll already have scenarios to play. Brett, *i, TM, and I are all Mac users. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 3084
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written Thursday, June 26 2003 03:34
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Thanks, Drakefyre … yes, I guess that’s a silver lining. But I’m still anxious to get my grubby mitts on that scenario editor! Although the BoA editor will almost certainly be different, I have a question for you Blades of Exile designers. Are there any guidelines to ensure that a scenario will work and display well on both Macs and PCs? I only ask because I’ve read complaints about certain BoE scenarios which contain text/response blocks that fit on PC displays but are too large for Mac displays. I’d prefer to avoid mistakes like that if possible, but unfortunately I don’t have a Mac on which to test. [ Thursday, June 26, 2003 10:12: Message edited by: Churl ] Posts: 37 | Registered: Monday, June 9 2003 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 3084
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written Friday, July 4 2003 07:52
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[EDIT: Sorry for the sequential posts … it’s been a week since I last visited this thread, so I didn’t realize that I was the most recent poster. Please be gentle!] Keeping with the theme of this thread, here is a rather basic question: does anyone know whether or not BoA will allow you to script the removal of special items from the party inventory? I would imagine that regular items can be stripped via script (á là food loss in the Waterfall Warrens); I’m asking about those special, non-droppable, quest-related items that appear in the Info page’s list. (BoE vets will probably respond by saying either “Of course” or “Very unlikely.” Unfortunately, I've never designed for BoE, so I don’t know what to expect.) Tentative predictions, anyone? [EDIT, for The_Nazgul below: Thanks.] [ Friday, July 04, 2003 10:35: Message edited by: Churl ] Posts: 37 | Registered: Monday, June 9 2003 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 2940
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written Friday, July 4 2003 08:49
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“Of course” -------------------- "I don't want to achieve immortality through my work, I want to achieve it through not dying." Posts: 469 | Registered: Thursday, May 1 2003 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Friday, July 4 2003 18:18
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Since one-use special items were present in BoE and used quite often in all three Avernums, it's safe to say that it will be quite easy to remove special items. Actually, regular items are harder, since if BoA works like BoE you'll need to mess with special classes to do that. But yes, item removal of all kinds should be included in the stock scripts of BoA. —Alorael, who expects special items will be far less used by designers since they can no longer be used by players. So those special classes may appear more and more on scripted items. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |