We spoiled Americans
Pages
| Author | Topic: We spoiled Americans |
|---|---|
|
...b10010b...
Member # 869
|
written Saturday, June 9 2007 18:45
Profile
Homepage
quote:Evidence suggests otherwise, considering that failing to report income is the most common form of tax evasion. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
|
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
|
written Saturday, June 9 2007 23:33
Profile
quote:Actually it is being repaid all the time: all those bond-holders collect their interest regularly, and eventually redeem their bonds, with no problem. In fact the investment works so well, and seems so secure, that they mostly turn right around and buy more US bonds. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
|
Agent
Member # 2759
|
written Saturday, June 9 2007 23:50
Profile
Homepage
In fact government debt works pretty well. The government needs money to finance its activities; it borrows some of that money as opposed to taxing everyone to death. From an investor point of view, government debt is an essentially risk-free investment which forms the backbone of business finance. The real issue, as Kelandon has repeatedly said, is not the debt so much as the real-terms growth in the deficit. If the national debt goes up too much you may end up having to raise taxes just in order to keep up with the interest payments, and that ain't good politics. Edit: removed secondary issue that overcomplicates things. [ Saturday, June 09, 2007 23:56: Message edited by: Micawber ] -------------------- "I can't read this thread with that image. But then, that's not a complaint." -Scorpius Geneforge 4 stuff. Also, everything I know about Avernum | Avernum 2 | Avernum 3 | Avernum 4 Posts: 1104 | Registered: Monday, March 10 2003 08:00 |
|
Shaper
Member # 6292
|
written Sunday, June 10 2007 00:40
Profile
It works until a lot of people want to cash out at once. Not unlike a Ponzi Scheme. -S- -------------------- A4 Items • A4 Singleton • G4 Items • G4 Forging • G4 Infiltrator • NR Items • The Lonely Celt Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
|
By Committee
Member # 4233
|
written Sunday, June 10 2007 05:07
Profile
quote:Unless someone is living completely "off the grid," they will have to have pay stubs from income from labor; brokerage accounts for keeping track of earnings on the market, and sales of property are required by law to be recorded. At the very least, it's no worse than the current system, with the added benefit that no matter what, they wouldn't be able to avoid all taxes, due to the national sales tax. I'm not doing this justice - it's been a while since I read the book - but I'm certain that the concept is workable in real life. Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |
|
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
|
written Sunday, June 10 2007 05:27
Profile
Homepage
As opposed to the current system, where it's totally possible to avoid the sales tax. (Well, outside of New Hampshire, anyway.) -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
|
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
|
written Sunday, June 10 2007 06:17
Profile
quote:Well, yes. Except that the government has the right to print money, so it can always fulfill its obligations. Printing too much extra money might generate enough inflation that the money isn't actually worth much, which is why people do eventually begin to worry about government debt. But there's no chance of the government abruptly running out of dollars. And, after all, money in general is something of a Ponzi scheme. The biggest turning point so far in my own understanding of capitalist economics was when I learned how not only governments, but also private banks, effectively create money. When a bank makes a loan, it does not take that money away from any of its depositors. So it effectively raises the amount of money in circulation. This process is a cornerstone of capitalist economies, but it's pretty shocking the first time you appreciate it. Money, credit and debt are not the same things for governments, banks, and big businesses, as they are for ordinary people. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
|
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
|
written Sunday, June 10 2007 10:08
Profile
quote:FYT. -------------------- WWtNSD? Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
|
Apprentice
Member # 8939
|
written Sunday, June 10 2007 13:20
Profile
arguing on the internet is like competing in the special olympics, even if u win, ur still retarded. -------------------- I had a profound thought, but i think it died. Posts: 20 | Registered: Saturday, June 9 2007 07:00 |
|
Guardian
Member # 5360
|
written Sunday, June 10 2007 13:34
Profile
Well, that's completely wrong. It depends on many factors, including (but not limited to) who you're arguing with, and what about. -------------------- May the fires of Undeath burn in your soul, and consume it. Posts: 1636 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00 |
|
Agent
Member # 4574
|
written Sunday, June 10 2007 13:40
Profile
Nalyd: Yah know, I was about to write a response to Ornk Peel, but I decided not to feed the troll. I suggest you do the same. Ornk Peel: I suggest you find another bridge to do troll things at. -------------------- Born in the year 1984. War is Peace. Freedom is Slavery. Ignorance is Strength. Posts: 1186 | Registered: Friday, June 18 2004 07:00 |
|
Guardian
Member # 5360
|
written Sunday, June 10 2007 16:44
Profile
If you feed it enough, it'll have a heart attack and die. Nice new name. Love the signature. -------------------- May the fires of Undeath burn in your soul, and consume it. Posts: 1636 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00 |
|
Agent
Member # 8030
|
written Sunday, June 10 2007 16:59
Profile
Homepage
quote:Kind of hard now, but when the mark of the beast comes around, it'll be no problem. See... http://home.iae.nl/users/lightnet/world/VERICHIP.JPG Posts: 1384 | Registered: Tuesday, February 6 2007 08:00 |
|
...b10010b...
Member # 869
|
written Sunday, June 10 2007 18:57
Profile
Homepage
quote:This would be a lot funnier if I didn't know you were serious. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
|
Lifecrafter
Member # 6388
|
written Wednesday, June 13 2007 20:03
Profile
quote:Good show, chap. I suppose for an encore you'll link us to some kind of web-site with hamsters dancing!!!! Sales tax as a replacement for income tax is an inherently fraudulent and regressive scheme. While adding a fixed income of $20,000/yr would prevent it from being murderously regressive, just think about it. Sales taxes can't reliably be levied against services; black markets are extremely efficient for services (to the point that loan-sharking was viable until the advent of mass credit in spite of stern government disapproval, and that prostitution remains a serious avenue for personal survival) compared to goods. (And for the record, no FairTax advocate will touch a GST with a ten-foot pole.) In other words, sales tax won't hit services particularly hard and probably won't even bother trying. Why is this important, you ask? Goods are what you need to live. Some services are, too, but those are few and far between, and except for a small number of extremely marginal people everyone has access to them. My fiancee and I make $20,000 a year between the two of us. Factor out college (paid for with loans which we'll be able to handle later) and more than 75% of our income goes towards goods. Rent, the phone, the Internet, and all that make up a minority of our expenses when compared to food, drink, and pharmaceuticals. My father makes $80,000 a year and it supports his entire family. That puts him around the middle class (even though if you take his debt into account you could more or less accurately number him among the poor). He's had to contend with legal expenses, mortgage, and stuff like that, but he still has to buy groceries. But you can only buy so much more in groceries. My family's per-person goods expenditure is only slightly more than ours - let's be generous and call it 150% more per person, so they spend 3 times more than we do. That's 3 times more taxable income under the FairTax scheme - at 4 times the income level. That's a comparison of apples and slightly bigger apples; considering our marginal income, these two households are basically similar. But have a look at the oranges, too. Bill Gates has a family of four. Unless he's routinely buying groceries from the Pentagon, he can only spend so much more in goods - most of his discretionary income will go to services (which includes imports - sales tax won't cover those, and if it does you have every free-trade wonk in the world clubbing you in the throat). Let's be PROFOUNDLY generous to FairTax here - call his taxable expenditures one thousand per cent what my family pays. In other words, he's paying 30 times the tax - at HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF TIMES THE INCOME. Now, think about that for a second. Under the current tax system, he's paying about ten thousand times what I am in tax. Under FairTax, hypothetically speaking, I'd pay about twice what I'm paying now - and they'd give me $20,000 a year, too, no less. So where's the multiple trillions the government needs a year just to meet its entitlements coming from? In other words, 'FairTax' is not just an Orwellism but a rank absurdity; it is neither fair nor a functional tax system. Giving it a name like that is like calling the Mafia the Department of the Interior; even if the methodology were anywhere near acceptable, it falls flat on simple concerns of scale. This is just napkin math. Work it out on paper and it comes out looking a hell of a lot worse - unless you just so happen to be one of those cranks who wants the government so small it can be drowned in a bathtub. (Except when it comes to bombing brown people, I guess.) FairTax or anything like FairTax would so profoundly burden the tenth through seventieth income percentile that the American standard of life would look more like China's under it. On the plus side, it works out great for you if you happen to be making more than $200,000 a year - the 90th percentile and above. So it ruins the lives of five people for every one person it moderately increases the income of. I like those odds! ... If you want a serious solution to the way the government works? If we had a military budget closer in proportions to that of, say, Germany, we'd have enough money to cut every man, woman, and child in the United States a monthly check for $500. And that isn't even cutting our military to the bone. (That'd produce something closer to $1500.) We'd remain the strongest military power on earth, still be stronger than any two other countries put together, and would retain cutting-edge military technology. The only difference is that we wouldn't have the budget to pay $500 for hammers, $8000 for toilets, and $2.2 billion for no-bid contracts whose board of directors just happens to be friends with the Vice President. If we weren't shelling out so much in corporate welfare, social welfare wouldn't even look like a problem. And yet this is what everyone talks about - ten years ago it was Flat Tax and Forbes and now it's FairTax and in twenty years it'll have some other asinine catchy name and all the media buzz on it. We're feeding our children dog food so our rich neighbors can buy a second Hummer. 'Ridiculous' would be the understatement of the century. [ Wednesday, June 13, 2007 20:05: Message edited by: Najosz Thjsza Kjras ] Posts: 794 | Registered: Tuesday, October 11 2005 07:00 |
