Nothing Plus Nothing Equals Nothing

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Author	Topic: Nothing Plus Nothing Equals Nothing
Najosz Thjsza Kjras Lifecrafter Member # 6388	written Wednesday, December 13 2006 11:55 Profile #50 quote: Originally written by Synergy67: There is way more to life and value than mere content. In all human interaction, I think it is plain that the how is far more critical than the what. Your how speaks louder than any of your many words to me. The interstate highway system was Hitler's idea. But you go ahead and reject what I have to say because other things I have to say make you feel bad about yourself. Posts: 794 \| Registered: Tuesday, October 11 2005 07:00
Khoth Post Navel Trauma ^_^ Member # 67	written Wednesday, December 13 2006 12:07 Profile Homepage #51 I'm not an expert on the philosphical side of things, but I'm happy to jump in and try a discussion about it. How about some epistemology? You've made a fair few claims. How did you come to know these things? You've complained about science, but you haven't given an alternative. -------------------- Barcoorah: I even did it to a big dorset ram. desperance.net - Don't follow this link Posts: 1798 \| Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00
Student of Trinity Electric Sheep One Member # 3431	written Wednesday, December 13 2006 12:19 Profile #52 Not everybody has to be a scientist. But if someone I love falls gravely ill, I will want simply the approach that is most likely to really work. That is the coldness of medical science: cash on the barrel, no slack no quarter, take up thy bed and walk. I'll want that in my corner for a real fight. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 \| Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Zeviz Nuke and Pave Member # 24	written Wednesday, December 13 2006 12:21 Profile Homepage #53 You can tell how debate-starved we are by looking at this thread's overnight growth. :) quote: Originally written by Synergy67: I thought to move this discussion out of Thuryl's thread . To elaborate on what prompted my statement concerning biology and medicine are still operating more out of Newtonian principles than Quantum theory principles. When I use those terms, I employ them thusly: Newtonian Mechanics: The universe = matter Quantum Mechanics: The universe = energy • There is no physical structure to an atom. • Everything made of "matter" radiates energy • Elements are frequencies ... -S- Synergy, you are right that you don't have to be a scientist to discuss phylosophy. However, people will judge the validity of your arguments based on what they can personally verify. I know very little about scientific basis of modern medicine, but I know something about physics. So when I see that you completely misundrstand the basic principles of physics, I have to assume that the rest of your theories are equally wrong. So I stopped reading your posts after the above point. You might have had some valid arguments in there, but they were lost because you started out talking about things you don't understand. Nobody expects a phylosopher to understand physics as well as a physicist, but if you are going to use scientific terms and claim to base your phylosophy on scientific findings, you have to have a strong understanding of these terms and findings to be taken seriously. PS Here are corrections to your statements about quantum mechanics. 1. Matter <-> energy. (Matter and energy can be converted into each other.) However "matter = energy" is false. Electrons (and other particles) sometimes act like billiard balls (matter) and sometimes like waves on water (energy), however, the two states are completely different, just like ice and water wapor can be converted into each other, but you can't say "ice = water wapor". (The analogy is not quite accurate, because you need extra energy to turn ice into wapor, but it gives the right idea.) The equations of Newtonian mechanics are still correct when dealing with everyday objects. 2. Uncertanty principle means that the more you know about particle's position, the less you know about direction of its motion. This does not mean that electrons in orbit around atom's nucleus are just functions. Think of blades of a rotating propeller. Those blades are a blur, similar to "probability cloud" of electron's orbit. If you stop the time, you'll see solid blades with fixed positions, but as long as propeller is rotating you can't do that. Similarly, if you stopped time and looked at an atom, you'd see solid electrons somewhere in their orbits, but as long as the time is going, you can't see precisely where the electrons are. 3. I am not sure where you got "all matter radiates energy" and "elements are frequencies" from. If you are talking about spectroscopy, it refers to ability of elements to absorb (and release) radiation of specific frequencies. This doesn't mean that elements "are frequencies", or that they radiate energy all the time. It just means that if an element has an extra energy it needs to get rid of, it will do it by emitting light of one of it favorite frequencies. PPS I am not sure about a couple things I've said above (it's been a while since my last physics class), so SoT, or somebody else who knows this stuff very well, please tell me if anything is wrong. [ Wednesday, December 13, 2006 12:27: Message edited by: Zeviz ] -------------------- Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword, For it too has the power to kill. However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword, Can also have the power to heal. Posts: 2649 \| Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00
Synergy Shaper Member # 6292	written Wednesday, December 13 2006 13:11 Profile #54 [ Wednesday, December 13, 2006 20:14: Message edited by: Synergy67 ] -------------------- A4 Item Locations A4 Singleton G4 Items List G4 Forging List The Insidious Infiltrator Posts: 2009 \| Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00
Khoth Post Navel Trauma ^_^ Member # 67	written Wednesday, December 13 2006 13:58 Profile Homepage #55 quote: Originally posted by Synergy: Khoth, is it really necessary for me to list further the many alternative health practices that exist, not only in America, but all over the world, some of which have been practiced for millennia? You misunderstood my question. I wasn't asking what you believed, I was asking why. If someone tells you that standing on your head will help cure headaches, how do you decide whether that claim has merit? And for a less directly observable example, if someone tells you that energy flows from your brain to cells in your body, how do you decide whether that claim has merit? [ Wednesday, December 13, 2006 14:05: Message edited by: Khoth ] -------------------- Barcoorah: I even did it to a big dorset ram. desperance.net - Don't follow this link Posts: 1798 \| Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00
Or else o'erleap. Law Bringer Member # 335	written Wednesday, December 13 2006 14:07 Profile Homepage #56 quote: I have lived a life largely by the principles of health I hold, and I know the benefits and advantages I have enjoyed for my choices. I don't expect to languish and die in a hospital with cancer or heart disease, because I have made choices to forego that likelihood. You can reduce your risk factors for heart disease, and you can to some extent avoid carcinogens. (It's hard to avoid genetic predispositions!) You can't guarantee yourself health. Nobody expects to languish and die in a hospital, but it happens. quote: Health is not rocket science. I find it really is very simple with some very simple principles when reduced to its most common denominators. Mechanisms are complex. The principles are simple. We either choose to recognize and live in accordance with them, or not, and suffer the consequences. We have enough information now to have little excuse otherwise, really. No, health is medical science. How can you "find" it simple when you candidly admit that you aren't an expert? You have enough information, but some of it is quite wrong according to the medical mainstream and I still don't understand what gives you the expertise to know better. quote: [b]If I ever came down with cancer, the first thing I would stop doing is eating red meat and any processed food. Cancer is the body's best last remaining way to contain a diseased state that is otherwise going to kill you. The cancer is not the enemy or the cause of your illness as much as it is the manifestation of the disease state that is finally manifesting that way. [/b] That's simply false. Cancer is a disease caused by genetic damage. When tumor suppressor genes are mutated and no longer prevent uncontrolled cell proliferation, the result is cancer. It has nothing to do with containing anything, and it certainly isn't due to the food you eat unless the food you eat happens to be carcinogenic. quote: I subscribe also to a psychosomatic component of disease. In this view, some disease is fueled by pervasive emotional states such as anger or depression. These create energetic states in the body which alter cell behavior, because cells respond to energy as signals along with chemical signals. Once again, there is a psychosomatic component to disease, but it's not because of "energy." Our emotions trigger complex chemical signalling by hormones. They have effects on many organs and cells, and the immune system is included. If you're depressed, so is your immune system, but energy is not involved in the process. quote: Alternatives to going in to a hospital for chemotherapy when you develop cancer is to radically change and simplify your diet, your lifestyle, your drink, your stress-levels, your emotional environment, and put into your body the precursors for the nutrients it most needs to overcome the particular cancer you are dealing with. And then you die. Can you find any shred of credible evidence for curing cancer with macrobiotics? I can't. If the only support is from the alternative medical community, then there's no way we're going to agree here. (I suppose that makes me partisan, but I'll take the scientific side for science, thanks.) The effects of heat and cold on the body can be explained without recourse to what I'll continue to call mysticism. The same is true of wet and dry air. If you're congested and you can breathe easier in the shower, it's not because the shower is doing anything but keeping you warm and giving you warm and moist air to breathe. [Edit: Is it just me, or is there condescension going both ways? Syn, calling everyone else closed-minded because they disagree with you isn't terribly open-minded itself. To turn your perspective around, we accept that there can conceivably be benefits in alternative medicine but that they haven't been shown whereas medical medicine has been proven over and over. You, on the other hand, have closed your mind to medical science and persist in rejecting it based on what you believe to be better without actually taking the time to understand medical science on even a basic level.] —Alorael, who thinks this discussion has reached total deadlock point. Maybe it needs to move to Spiderweb chats now. If anything can improve a good virtual shouting match, it's putting it in real time! [ Wednesday, December 13, 2006 14:11: Message edited by: In Times of Tandem ] Posts: 14579 \| Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Synergy Shaper Member # 6292	written Wednesday, December 13 2006 14:16 Profile #57 [ Wednesday, December 13, 2006 20:15: Message edited by: Synergy67 ] -------------------- A4 Item Locations A4 Singleton G4 Items List G4 Forging List The Insidious Infiltrator Posts: 2009 \| Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00
Najosz Thjsza Kjras Lifecrafter Member # 6388	written Wednesday, December 13 2006 14:27 Profile #58 Once more, your mysticism is not only wrong but insultingly wrong. Cancer can be prevented to some extent by a good diet and regular exercise (studies bear out as much), and its inevitable conclusion can be postponed somewhat by the same, but cancer has nothing to do in and of itself with what you ascribe it to. It is exactly what Alorael says it is: genetically damaged cells which no longer die after reproducing a certain amount of times. However, stating that cancer can be cured by diet and exercise is hogwash. The 'immune system', your cure-all, is less than useless against cancer; in fact, the lymphatic sysem serves as a vector for cancer once it becomes systemic. You're basing your every prescription on broad stereotypes about science and medicine. Yes, proper nutrition is important, and sure, keeping the immune system from getting depressed when you are sick is good. But the immune system can only do so much in and of itself to contain diseases. That's why they're diseases in the first place: if the immune system could handle them on its own you wouldn't get sick in the first place, now would you? Your prescription for cancer is diet and exercise. What objection do you have to chemotherapy and what evidence do you have that diet/exercise are more effective? And if you reject my query on the basis of my being an ass, I'd like to know why you don't ask yourself these questions. Self-criticism is the first step towards wisdom. Posts: 794 \| Registered: Tuesday, October 11 2005 07:00
Synergy Shaper Member # 6292	written Wednesday, December 13 2006 14:50 Profile #59 [ Wednesday, December 13, 2006 20:15: Message edited by: Synergy67 ] -------------------- A4 Item Locations A4 Singleton G4 Items List G4 Forging List The Insidious Infiltrator Posts: 2009 \| Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00
Dikiyoba Councilor Member # 6600	written Wednesday, December 13 2006 15:11 Profile Homepage #60 Originally by Synergy: quote: I choose to reject the science requirment bias to dialog here. I find it incredibly tedious, for one thing, mostly soulless for another. It doesn't breathe. It is not inspiring. It is largely cold and sterile. It bogs down endlessly in nitpicky details and loses the bigger wonderings of the nature of life and being human. Meh. For all your brilliance, Alec, you bore me. You don't leave me wanting to know you. I'm not here to be an argument jock. I want to engage dialog with anyone who can engage it in a way that is meaningful and enjoyable for me. I have that right. If no such person is to respond or be found, then I will soon tire of the attempt and let it die. In fairness, a few have offered some dialog that I have enjoyed and appreciated. I realize it's rather unfair for me to become another person debating against you, but you have to understand that not everything in life can be colorful and vibrant and inspiring just as not everything in life can be scientific and cold and sterile. There's places for both creativity and the scientific method. If this were a discussion on, say, fine art, then subjectivity is totally appropriate and trying to apply the scientific method to it would be out of place. However, healthcare, especially on the widespread scale that most accepted drugs and other treatments take place on, is a place for the scientific method because when it comes down to preventing and curing diseases, positive results are important. An individual choosing to accept or refuse treatment (on whatever grounds, and you're welcome to do so) is one thing, but if 10,000 people get seriously sick from a disease every year, then we'd better be sure that treatment is helping them and helping them to the best of our abilities. That's why science is being so devoutly fought for here. Dikiyoba. Posts: 4346 \| Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00
Najosz Thjsza Kjras Lifecrafter Member # 6388	written Wednesday, December 13 2006 15:41 Profile #61 quote: Originally written by Synergy67: Oh sure, it's true, as I'll readily admit. I'm not at all open-minded to considering allopathic medicine as an acceptable solution for me for maintaining my health or dealing with disease. I have already considered it and made my decision, and I live my life accordingly. I don't need to apologize for that, and I have no need to reexamine it. I continue to witness the unacceptable downsides of it,and want nothing to do with it. It don't sell itself. It's not good enough. -S- But the entire point of this topic is to give a reason why you reject medicine, which you've yet to. The reason I have, and tell me if I'm wrong on this one, is that defrauding vulnerable people out of proper medical care with scientific-sounding falsehoods makes you a pretty comfortable living. Or I guess you'd call it 'counseling', but potAYto potAHto, right? Posts: 794 \| Registered: Tuesday, October 11 2005 07:00
Or else o'erleap. Law Bringer Member # 335	written Wednesday, December 13 2006 16:14 Profile Homepage #62 Synergy chooses alternative medicine because it jibes with his personal philosophy and cosmology. That seems like a poor basis for medical decisions to me, but everyone has a right to make such determinations for himself. He can even try to convince others, although I feel obligated to do my best to convince them otherwise. Public policy is another matter. There's only so much money for grants, and it needs to go where it will do some good. Yes, some should be spent on preliminary studies of alternative practices, but unless they show promise it's not just unnecessary to fund them. It's downright immoral, and it causes unnecessary human suffering and death. —Alorael, whose personal beliefs reject mystical nonsense about personal energies and mind over matter. People are big bags of chemical reacions, and if your reactions aren't running right poking them isn't the solution (Thuryl pun!). Dumping more chemicals in can be. Posts: 14579 \| Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Synergy Shaper Member # 6292	written Wednesday, December 13 2006 20:03 Profile #63 [ Wednesday, December 13, 2006 20:16: Message edited by: Synergy67 ] -------------------- A4 Item Locations A4 Singleton G4 Items List G4 Forging List The Insidious Infiltrator Posts: 2009 \| Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00
SkeleTony Shock Trooper Member # 156	written Wednesday, December 13 2006 20:14 Profile #64 quote: Originally written by Synergy67: [quote=Kelandon] [qb]I'm not sure why you think that the medical industry only researches pharmaceuticals. It doesn't. I don't recall ever saying that it does. It is the lions share by a huge longshot of how we treat disease. Seriously, is there anyone going to argue that the west practices allopathic medicine as a whole, overall? I'm focusing on the dominant practice and belief system, not stating it exists to the utter exclusion of others. I am privileged to live in a part of America that is very friendly to many "alternative" approaches and practices to health and medicine...and other aspects of life, for that matter. The alternatives exist, yes. It's expanding as more and more people have grown disillusioned with and unwilling to endure the detriments of the allopathic approach, basically. That which works sells itself ultimately, and that which is inferior or ineffective, will in time, fall into disfavor.[/quote]Not quite. Pseudoscience and quackery often "sell" in vast amounts to the average, not-well-informed person and when the trendiness of the quackery dies down, new quackery rises to take i8t's place on store shelves. The current trend of new age-psychic-herbalistic-crystal-homeopathic nonsense is slowly starting to lose ground(again) but some new nonsense, not unlike the "chakras" and Reiki absurdity of today(and years past) will become fashionable. quote: In the long run, even fallible science will be unable to dictate reality to the populace. What exactly do you mean by "fallible science"? If you are saying that humans practicing anything(including science) can make mistakes then fine but if you are, as I suspect, trying to say that the methodology itself is significantly lacking then you will have to do better. quote: I've been alive long enough to see in my lifetime a significant change and expansion in both attitude and practice toward non-allopathic medicine. That's very telling in and of itself, and it has nothing to do with anything I believe or can try to communicate here or anywhere else. It has everything to do with how common "belief"(and subsequently pattern recognition behaviors) is and how rare critical thinking is. For every Sagan or Einstein there are probably 10 million Deepak Chopras and Shirley Mclaines. quote: Allopathy and pharmacology is where the power and money still lies currently though, Really? Tell that to the corporate bastards building billion dollar empires right and left from "Alterative medicine" because they can package any concoction of ground spiders' legs, herbal extracts and some alleged ancient far east weed or tea formula without the rigorous standards of FDA approval and none of these "alternative" or "homeop-athic" or "Naturopathic" "remedies even have to do ANYTHING! There are no controlled studies showing that they have any beneficial effects(not to mention that we are seeing people DIE from some of these often enough to be very concerned) and the so-called alternative medicine crowd does not seem anxious to push for any. quote: and it has tremendous power to hamper the lesser approaches, and not even necessarily by any conscious intent, but by the simple law of inertia. It takes time to steer an ocean liner in a new direction. But in time, people do vote with their feet. They do up until the dying starts(and becomes known to even the most ill-informed person). Then make the wise decision to trust the guy who went to med school for 8-12 years and has been treating people with known to be EFFECTIVE means for even more years, as opposed to trusting the guy who pioneered "Stoned thinking"(Andrew Weil) or who wrotte a book called "Sharks Don't Get Cancer!"(but neglected to write the obvious follow up "Roaches do not get Diabetes!" which would make the case that eating roaches should cure diabetes). -------------------- "I am in a very peculiar business. I travel all over the world telling people what they should already know." - James Randi Posts: 219 \| Registered: Saturday, October 13 2001 07:00
Slarty Raven v. Writing Desk Member # 261	written Wednesday, December 13 2006 20:16 Profile Homepage #65 Erasure...? That... well, I'm very sad to see that's where you've ended up. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 \| Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
*i The Establishment Member # 6	written Wednesday, December 13 2006 20:26 Profile #66 I don't see a point to this thread anymore...too bad... -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power! Posts: 3726 \| Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00