Jonathan Pollard's 22nd year of incarceration
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| Author | Topic: Jonathan Pollard's 22nd year of incarceration |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 6403
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written Saturday, November 25 2006 08:00
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quote:Really? And when did I say Vanunu's punishment was acceptible? What I said was that he received less of a punishment for more of a crime. quote:Yes, very different gravity. Pollard offered information that Israel had a right to know, to nobody but those that had the right to know. Vanunu offered information that the British press had no business, much less the right, to know. And if you think that telling the press something is less grave then telling a government the same, you are horribly mistaken. Do you really think that if the press knows something, the government won't after a day? quote:Whether or not Israel bullys it's neighbors, is irrelevant. America was obligated by their own word to provide Israel with that information. As for the rest of that paragraph, you have as of yet failed to bring proof that Israel does indeed bully it's neighbors. And bail Israel out diplomatically? If you mean mediating the Oslo accords, then you should be switching who you think America was 'bailing out' (which, coincidentally, didn't make the Palestineans like America anyway). There is only one reason that Israel doesn't make "misconceived 'first strikes'" to wipe enemies who have repeatedly stated that they would wipe Israel off the map off the map. Unlike what you seem to beleive, Israel waits for actual violence before taking part in military actions. If Israel did make "misconceived 'first strike' ALL THE DAMN TIME", then countries such as Syria and Iran whouldn't be much more than smoldering piles of rubble and radiation poisoning right now. As for destroying America's rapport with the Middle East, well, if preventing the all out slaughter of extremist Palestinians destroys one's rapport amongst the Palestineans, then there is no comment I can possibly make on the matter. quote:Actually, you do have the resources to take on Iran, you probably have the resources to take on all extremist Muslim countries, so long as you don't try to do anything foolish like trying to set up democracies in countries that obviously don't want them. What you don't have the resources for is taking on the entire extremist Muslim world. As for being thirsty for Muslim blood, the term usually applies to those who would attack more then they are being attacked. As such, not at all what Israelis are. And since when has America given Israel more slack than what was needed to function? As for the right recognizing that Israel is a liability, most Palestinean groups beleive that anything concerning Israel's right to exist is a direct threat to them. quote:Really, have you been to Israel? The average Israeli is, to be frank, much more civilized than the average American (wow, look, biased comment for biased comment). And, as was said many times before, hiding the intelligence data was, as has been pointed out to me: In the barest of terms, a lie and a theft. As for bombing first, asking questions later, again, you're getting confused between Israel and Hamas/Hezbollah etc. As for the impartial observer comment, all I've seen from you has been personal attacks, vehemence, vitriol and causticness. Explain to me again why the impartial observer would be more inclined to agree with you than with me? -------------------- ??? ?????? ???? ????? Posts: 883 | Registered: Wednesday, October 19 2005 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6489
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written Saturday, November 25 2006 08:13
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quote:I disagree. You might be able to take on Syria, but Iran would eat you for breakfast. quote:What in the world could you possibly use to back that statement up? -------------------- "You're drinking liquor because you're thirsty? How nasty is your freaking water?" —Lazarus Spiderweb Chat Room Avernum RP • Summaries • OoC • Roster Shadow Vale - My site, home of the Spiderweb Chat Database, BoA Scenario Database, & the A1 Quest List, among other things. Posts: 1556 | Registered: Sunday, November 20 2005 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 6403
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written Saturday, November 25 2006 08:21
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quote:Israel has the second best army in the world. Second best only because it is lacking the numbers of the best, namely, the American. America consistently buys Israeli made and/or improved weapons. quote:Please read the part in parentheses directly after that comment. [ Saturday, November 25, 2006 08:22: Message edited by: radix malorum est cupiditas ] -------------------- ??? ?????? ???? ????? Posts: 883 | Registered: Wednesday, October 19 2005 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7472
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written Saturday, November 25 2006 09:08
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quote:Actually, Israel doesn't even need an army to take on Iran. Considering that Mossad is the best intelligence agency in the world, they could probably cripple an enemy country without firing a shot. quote:The thing is, 'actual violence' can be initiated by either side. -------------------- I tried to think of something witty to put here. Needless to say, I failed. Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6489
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written Saturday, November 25 2006 09:14
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quote:It has to do with numbers. In case you hadn't noticed, Iran is significantly bigger, and not just in area. -------------------- "You're drinking liquor because you're thirsty? How nasty is your freaking water?" —Lazarus Spiderweb Chat Room Avernum RP • Summaries • OoC • Roster Shadow Vale - My site, home of the Spiderweb Chat Database, BoA Scenario Database, & the A1 Quest List, among other things. Posts: 1556 | Registered: Sunday, November 20 2005 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 4153
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written Saturday, November 25 2006 10:23
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quote:Okay, but the government can't trust everything the press says. Otherwise, the U.S. gov't would constantly be consulting the Enquirer over possible retaliation for abductions. quote:Maybe if you're looking at the case in a political vacuum, then it could be irrelevant. But if Israel does tend to bully its neighbors (an idea which I agree with, though I acknowledge that it's mutual bullying), then the U.S. would have a reason to withold said information. Maybe, just maybe, the U.S. doesn't want anything to happen that will de-stabilize the Middle East any more than it already has been. And just in general, I believe that it's totally relevant what Israel does to its neighbors, just as much as it is relevant what Israel's neighbors do to Israel. quote:Yes, and we all know that incidences of violence around Israel are few and far between, don't we? :P I mean seriously, the country just has to wait about 24 hours before another reason for military action pops up. quote:Could you clarify what the heck that means? quote:...which would likely declare jihad on us after an act like invading Iran. And anyway, I don't think it's an argument about whether or not we could do it. I think we could do it. I just don't think we could "finish the job" in less than half a century, unless you use W's definition of "finish the job". quote:Is this part of your argument, or just part of a tangential rant? And can we leave out the cheap shots about whose country is more "civilized"? That goes for everyone here. -------------------- Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice. I hate undead. I really, really, really, really hate undead. With a passion. Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 6403
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written Saturday, November 25 2006 10:34
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quote:But, the thing is, it isn't. quote:That hasn't stopped Israel in the war of 1948 or the six-day war, or the Yom Kippur war. All of which, by the way, just for the benefit of all those who don't know Israeli history, were wars between Israel and multiple Arab nations. The first was before Israel had a real standing army; the second was the largest war Israel has ever fought, and was over in six days; and the third was on one of the Jewish holy days, during which, nearly all of the military was off duty. -------------------- ??? ?????? ???? ????? Posts: 883 | Registered: Wednesday, October 19 2005 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 4153
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written Saturday, November 25 2006 10:41
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Infernal, thanks for not responding to any of my posts. quote:And Israel would've been hard-pressed to win had it not been for... Portugal. Well, or Operation Nickel Grass. Another reason Wikipedia is everyone's friend... who would've guessed that Portugal saved Israel? :D -------------------- Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice. I hate undead. I really, really, really, really hate undead. With a passion. Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6489
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written Saturday, November 25 2006 10:44
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Need I point out that Israel has to date never fought a war against Iran? -------------------- "You're drinking liquor because you're thirsty? How nasty is your freaking water?" —Lazarus Spiderweb Chat Room Avernum RP • Summaries • OoC • Roster Shadow Vale - My site, home of the Spiderweb Chat Database, BoA Scenario Database, & the A1 Quest List, among other things. Posts: 1556 | Registered: Sunday, November 20 2005 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 6403
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written Saturday, November 25 2006 10:57
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quote:Not everything, but the majority of the news is acted upon. quote:Not political vacuum, rather legal vacuum. If, by 'bullying' you mean saying "If you try to stab me, I will be forced to knock your teeth out", then yes, I agree there is a bit of mutual bullying goin on. So by withholding the information, there won't be a good amount of turmoil in the middle-east that would result in several thousand casualties on both sides at the very least? Or did you mean something else? quote:which was my point exactly. Not even when there is violence, do we attack back. Sheesh, the amount of attacks on Israeli civilian targets would make even Sweden call for military action if it wasn't happening to Israel. quote:It means that even acnowledging that Israel has a right to exist is practically an act of war. quote:Again, we are in agreement. My inclusion of the entirety of the Muslim world was the reason attacking Iran was not an option. quote:See above. quote:I'd be happy to. -------------------- ??? ?????? ???? ????? Posts: 883 | Registered: Wednesday, October 19 2005 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 6403
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written Saturday, November 25 2006 11:06
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quote:I'm sorry, I was reserving your post, given the length, for a completely seperate post. And yes, Portugal, though indirectly, helped Israel win the Yom Kippur war. -------------------- ??? ?????? ???? ????? Posts: 883 | Registered: Wednesday, October 19 2005 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Saturday, November 25 2006 16:31
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 -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 6388
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written Sunday, November 26 2006 02:54
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quote:No it isn't. That's an absurd statement and you're only making it because you think it'll help you make your absurd case. quote:Uh, it's not in a legal vacuum either. If it were, the US would be perfectly justified exercising lex talonis and carpet-bombing Tel Aviv in response to Pollard's valiant espionage. People like you sure like lex talonis a lot until it comes time to take it themselves. Under the realist inter-state theory, which holds a legal vacuum in international relations as a given, you're free to do anything you like as an inter-state actor, so long as you're prepared for the response of other actors. And the fact you complain about the Yom Kippur War (Our army was off duty! Dirty pool!) shows that you either entirely misunderstand the theory you're operating in or are cynically misrepresenting it for rhetorical gain. You know for a fact that Israel has a track record of conducting inflammatory behavior in violation of state sovereignity, then hiding under the aegis of US protection whenever it is threatened with forcible retribution. Your asinine little first strike doctrine wouldn't last two seconds if our hand wasn't up your ass, and you return the favor by spying on us? Real class act your country is, eh? Most people would react to that with a kind of shame. Even if you don't particularly care that the 'preemptive strike' takes hundreds of thousands of lives (and you don't), there's still something basically repugnant about that kind of ingratitude. quote:Disingenuous. The factions represented in anti-Israeli violence are already at war with Israel. What are you supposed to do, declare war on them again? Bomb them twice as hard when you get around to doing so, just to show you mean it?quote:which was my point exactly. Not even when there is violence, do we attack back. Sheesh, the amount of attacks on Israeli civilian targets would make even Sweden call for military action if it wasn't happening to Israel. The reason Israel isn't 'attacking back' when anti-civilian violence occurs is because it's run out of people to attack. Of course, what you want is to lump all foreigners into one category and kill them by the thousands whenever anyone attacks an Israeli, and you feel you're being robbed of some kind of entitlement when cooler heads prevail and Israel doesn't respond to a lone bomber by nuking Iran for some reason. quote:If what you care about is Israel's right to exist, I suppose you'd agree with me that it ought to withdraw from the West Bank then, right? Including Jerusalem, which is outside of legal Israeli territory and which has no bearing on the state's right to exist.quote:It means that even acnowledging that Israel has a right to exist is practically an act of war. After all, that's the only impediment to a lot of the factions that do so denying Israel's right to exist: it continuing to claim as integral territories the Palestinian homeland. If that'd improve the situation, why not do it? quote:[/b] I like how you dropped 'extremist' there. You need to come to terms with the fact you have a serious problem with Muslims, whether or not they've actually done anything wrong - you basically judge them guilty until proven innocent. Your entire worldview seems to be devoted to justifying that problem, including absurd philosophical gymnastics to prove the absurd apartheid state you've got going on can do no wrong. You know Israel is oppressing and killing people based not on what they have done but based on what someone who looked vaguely like them might have done. There are two ways to solve that cognitive dissonance: consider Israel's actions morally repulsive or consider the oppressed people non-human. This isn't some kind of liberal condescension here; I'm not one of those snivelling little asshats who want you to reach deep into your heart and change. I understand that if anything is ever going to effect a change in your horrible, horrible worldview, it isn't gonna be me. But you've gotta acknowledge your bias here, because it's a freaking tremendous intellectual flaw and it's the sort of baggage you need to make clear whenever you start a discussion like this. If you don't, unlike aforementioned asshats, I'm entirely willing to furnish you with contempt. quote:[/qb][/quote]quote:See above. Again with the misrepresenting what I say. I said your behavior is uncivilized; my assertion wasn't cheap or boundless, because to be frank bombing the bejesus out of people because and only because they're darker than you is textbook uncivilized behavior. If you want to turn that around and argue I'm worse off there, go right ahead, but you didn't feel like bothering and then you got the hippy-dippy sag-nuts to agree with you in the name of building consensus or whatever. In short, Infernal, you really need to acknowledge that you are a chauvinist crank. Your sole interest is in defending the actions of Israel, regardless of whether they're morally defensible. If that goes to the extent of refusing to consider innocent Palestinians people, you're apparently willing to make that jump. And if that isn't the case, let's approach this from a different angle, because you've been justifying why Israel can kill civilians all day and I'm tired of it. Tell me why the PLO, or Iraq, or Iran, or whoever, shouldn't kill your civilians. Give me an exact reason; I'm earnestly interested in seeing what it is. [ Sunday, November 26, 2006 02:57: Message edited by: The Worst Man Ever ] Posts: 794 | Registered: Tuesday, October 11 2005 07:00 |
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The Establishment
Member # 6
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written Sunday, November 26 2006 06:30
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quote:This is a disgusting overgeneralization and totally unacceptable for these boards. Offending nationalities like this is unacceptable. For this, among other things, you are banned for 2 weeks. Same goes for you Alec, 2 weeks. I don't think I need to point out all of your stuff that is offensive and not for these boards. Either way, this topic is closed. -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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