Jonathan Pollard's 22nd year of incarceration
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Author | Topic: Jonathan Pollard's 22nd year of incarceration |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 6403
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written Thursday, November 23 2006 06:11
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I wanted to put this up on the anniversary of the occasion, but school kept me away. quote:From www.freepollard.org Discuss. -------------------- ??? ?????? ???? ????? Posts: 883 | Registered: Wednesday, October 19 2005 07:00 |
The Establishment
Member # 6
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written Thursday, November 23 2006 07:23
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Passing on classified information to any other country is an extremely serious offense, the statement makes it sound like stealing bubble gum. It does not matter what he "felt" was right, that is not his decision to make. Neither one of us knows what was actually in the documents passed, for all we know there could have been a lot of things that were really, really bad included in there. As a part of inaccuracy, many (if not all) of the people mentioned that were convicted were not tried nor convicted of treason, but with espionage. [ Thursday, November 23, 2006 07:31: Message edited by: *i ] -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Thursday, November 23 2006 07:43
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quote:http://www.vanunu.org/ Discuss. [ Thursday, November 23, 2006 07:58: Message edited by: Arancan'tremembertherest ] -------------------- Encyclopaedia Ermariana • Forum Archives • Forum Statistics • RSS [Topic / Forum] My Blog • Polaris • I eat novels for breakfast. Polaris is dead, long live Polaris. Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair. Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Thursday, November 23 2006 07:50
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There was a report during one of the attempts to gain clemency during the second Bush administration by an intelligence expert that had access to the files pass on to Israel that one of those files that so outraged the first Bush administration was a list of agents hired by the US through Saudi Arabia during the Soviet invaison of Afganistan. The main agent was Osama bin Ladin. Before 9/11 Osama was on our payroll. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Thursday, November 23 2006 07:52
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quote:Sure? :P -------------------- Encyclopaedia Ermariana • Forum Archives • Forum Statistics • RSS [Topic / Forum] My Blog • Polaris • I eat novels for breakfast. Polaris is dead, long live Polaris. Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair. Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
Lifecrafter
Member # 6403
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written Thursday, November 23 2006 07:53
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quote:Except that the documents that he took legally belonged to Israel. Whether or not there was anything really, really bad in there, it was not America's to withhold. Stealing something you own from a thief is hardly a life sentance crime. In fact, I'd be extremely surprised if someone that did that got any more than a few months. I'm sorry for the inaccuracy, as I was unaware of the exact defenition of the word. But the point remains the same, he was not convicted of espionage either. [ Thursday, November 23, 2006 08:01: Message edited by: radix malorum est cupiditas ] -------------------- ??? ?????? ???? ????? Posts: 883 | Registered: Wednesday, October 19 2005 07:00 |
Lifecrafter
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written Thursday, November 23 2006 07:59
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quote:And he was released after commiting a crime. With less time than many spies that reveal nuclear secrets to other countries. EDIT: tags EDIT2: Also he wasn't put through all the courtroom shenanigans that Pollard was. [ Thursday, November 23, 2006 08:06: Message edited by: radix malorum est cupiditas ] -------------------- ??? ?????? ???? ????? Posts: 883 | Registered: Wednesday, October 19 2005 07:00 |
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Thursday, November 23 2006 08:04
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It's not quite as one-sided as that. Wikipedia has an even-handed presentation of what may or may not have happened, and discusses the sentencing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Pollard -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
The Establishment
Member # 6
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written Thursday, November 23 2006 08:10
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quote:You really do have an oversimplified view of the matter. Pollard was likely doing a lot more than you claim. As to exactly what, it's unlikely we will ever know. If you read the open literature on the matter, you can see that he likely gave other things to Israel (despite his claims to the contrary) that they did not need to have. This information was likely sold by Israel to other nations causing serious harm to the United States defense and intelligence capabilities. Point is, he was a spy. Even if he felt that Israel should have these documents, that is not his decision alone to make. As for questions of legality, I think this is a lot more complicated than that. The US is required to share information regarding Israel's defense so long as it is not contrary to US security interests. A sovereign country always has the right to protect its own security regardless of other agreements. Also: please do not double post. [ Thursday, November 23, 2006 08:12: Message edited by: *i ] -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Thursday, November 23 2006 08:18
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quote:The agents who abducted him in Italy committed a crime. Pollard committed a crime. Frankly, you should keep well away from arguing the legality of any of this. -------------------- Encyclopaedia Ermariana • Forum Archives • Forum Statistics • RSS [Topic / Forum] My Blog • Polaris • I eat novels for breakfast. Polaris is dead, long live Polaris. Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair. Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
Lifecrafter
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written Thursday, November 23 2006 08:19
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quote:Yes, that was stated later in the article, along with the fact that there was no proof given for any charges aside from the passing of nonsensetive documents to Israel. Nor will there ever be, because if there were, they would already have been made public knowledge. (I mean the proofs, not the accusations). All the claims that Pollard was charged with remind me of the Loose Change video. [ Thursday, November 23, 2006 08:22: Message edited by: radix malorum est cupiditas ] -------------------- ??? ?????? ???? ????? Posts: 883 | Registered: Wednesday, October 19 2005 07:00 |
Lifecrafter
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written Thursday, November 23 2006 08:30
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quote:Except that nothing was presented in the case aside from "nonsensetive documents". The rest of the charges were made years later and no proof has been found for them. Also, I was under the impression that it was understood that when responding to two seperate posts, especially in a debate, double posting is allowed. Obviously this doesn't apply to some, like Tully or I. You know, the kind that disagrees with your point of view. quote:It is in any secret service agency's purview to bring any traitors to their home countries for trial. One that if it is indeed a crime, it's sentance should have been over at least 18 years ago. quote:And why is that? [ Thursday, November 23, 2006 08:41: Message edited by: radix malorum est cupiditas ] -------------------- ??? ?????? ???? ????? Posts: 883 | Registered: Wednesday, October 19 2005 07:00 |
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Thursday, November 23 2006 08:34
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Actually, that brings up something I've always wondered. Infernal, you have very strong convictions. Most people here seem to disagree with them (with greater and lesser degrees of politeness, unfortunately). Why do you bring up this stuff HERE? I mean I understand that you like to debate it, but do you really enjoy arguing about it with people who aren't receptive to your opinions? -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
Lifecrafter
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written Thursday, November 23 2006 08:43
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quote:Because I hope to educate at least a few. There is no point in debating something that receives no opposition. -------------------- ??? ?????? ???? ????? Posts: 883 | Registered: Wednesday, October 19 2005 07:00 |
The Establishment
Member # 6
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written Thursday, November 23 2006 08:49
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quote:No, you use the same post and just clearly separate the two arguments. Whenever I see a double post (I know I miss some) I try to remind people to use the edit feature. Yours was not abusive, that's why I was quite polite in asking you not to do it. [ Thursday, November 23, 2006 09:21: Message edited by: *i ] -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
Triad Mage
Member # 7
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written Thursday, November 23 2006 11:16
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We have in the past encouraged double posting in debate topics when responding to two separate posts. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
The Establishment
Member # 6
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written Thursday, November 23 2006 12:31
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Eh, whatever. It's irrelevant either way. I'd say as long as it's reasonable it's okay. In this case, the two posts were short enough that they could have been combined with no confusion. Generally the edit feature is preferred rather than spreading out to numbers of smaller posts. -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
Law Bringer
Member # 4153
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written Thursday, November 23 2006 12:38
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quote:Well, to be perfectly honest... it tends to come across as rather one-sided Israeli propaganda. To me, at least. For instance, from your arguments here, it sounds as if it's okay for Israeli spies to steal intelligence from the U.S., but an intelligence leak to another nation is unacceptable. The two crimes (I feel comfortable calling them both crimes) only differ in which direction the intelligence flows. Also, this... quote:Explain how U.S. intelligence belong to a foreign nation. EDIT: Meh. Typo. [ Thursday, November 23, 2006 12:43: Message edited by: Ephesos ] -------------------- Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice. I hate undead. I really, really, really, really hate undead. With a passion. Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00 |
Triad Mage
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written Thursday, November 23 2006 13:39
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I think that it's less about the crime and more about the punishment. Which, when you look at it, is incredibly "unfair", given precedent. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Thursday, November 23 2006 14:48
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quote:The US has entered into agreements with different countries, usally allies, over the years to share intelligence that is important to those countries, Israel has provided intelligence to the US about countries of interest to us and during past wars information about the effectiveness of US military weapons versus Soviet Union weapons back during the Cold War. In some cases Israel shipped captured Soviet planes and other intact items to the US for analysis. Pollard contended that the information he passed on to Israel was covered under an agreement and was being withheld from Israel contrary to that agreement. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
Law Bringer
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written Thursday, November 23 2006 19:23
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Randomizer: Okay, fair enough... though it still seems a bit hazy. And I guess the punishment is a bit off-base if compared to the precedents listed, but it doesn't mean that the precedents were right. -------------------- Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice. I hate undead. I really, really, really, really hate undead. With a passion. Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00 |
Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Thursday, November 23 2006 19:50
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I'm not an expert in espionage or legal precedent, but it seems to me that the punishment vastly outweighs the (negligible) harm done. It's quite possible that America is making an example out of Pollard to show that it can be tough on allies as well as enemies. —Alorael, who doesn't think it seems right. He doesn't think his opinion carries much weight, though, since he knows next to nothing about the issues. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
Law Bringer
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written Thursday, November 23 2006 19:50
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I'm not an expert in espionage or legal precedent, but it seems to me that the punishment vastly outweighs the (negligible) harm done. It's quite possible that America is making an example out of Pollard to show that it can be tough on allies as well as enemies. —Alorael, who doesn't think it seems right. He doesn't think his opinion carries much weight, though, since he knows next to nothing about the issues. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
The Establishment
Member # 6
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written Thursday, November 23 2006 19:55
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What it comes down to is that he, acting on his own, does not have the right or authority to make those decisions. He may feel Israel had a right to know, but others who viewed those documents may have disagreed -- again, we don't know, none of us have actually seen the documents in question. Additionally, he was an Israeli spy and could hardly be considered an objective arbiter on the matter. Quite plainly, this was not his determination to make and is a crime, period. On face the punishment may seem harsh looking at the precidents. Personally, I feel those precidents were a bit too lenient. Granted many of the details behind these cases remain classified due to the nature of the crime so it's very difficult to give a fully objective analysis. Alorael: Unfortunately, we do not know the full scope of the harm done. The general policy regarding classified information is "no comment". Often in these matters a lot more happens than what can be told. I guess that's the problem with us arguing this whole issue: none of us really know the full truth because we cannot know the full truth because we don't need to know the full truth. [ Thursday, November 23, 2006 19:58: Message edited by: *i ] -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
Lifecrafter
Member # 6388
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written Friday, November 24 2006 15:07
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That you find Pollard's punishment unacceptable and Vanunu's acceptable tells an impartial observer all they need to know about you: you are a chauvinist crank and expecting to receive any useful information from you is unreasonable. My understanding, by the way, is that Pollard offered information to the Israeli government and Vanunu information to the British press. Similar behavior, different gravity. One reason we're withholding information from Israel, by the way, is that you have a nasty habit of bullying your neighbors and forcing us to bail you out diplomatically. It's destroyed our rapport with the middle east. Further, if the IDF decides to make some kind of misconcieved 'first strike' against Iran - the sort of thing it does ALL THE DAMN TIME - then we face having to bail you out militarily. We don't have the resources to take on Iran, and given how thirsty you people are for Muslim blood, we really don't want to give you any more slack than you absolutely need to function. Even the right wing, which is all in favor of you slaughtering brown people under normal circumstances, recognizes how much of a liability you've become to our foreign and military policy. Maybe if you behaved like civilized human beings we wouldn't be forced to hide our intelligence data from you. And part of that involves not bombing first and asking questions later. [ Friday, November 24, 2006 15:09: Message edited by: The Worst Man Ever ] Posts: 794 | Registered: Tuesday, October 11 2005 07:00 |
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