Jonathan Pollard's 22nd year of incarceration

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AuthorTopic: Jonathan Pollard's 22nd year of incarceration
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I wanted to put this up on the anniversary of the occasion, but school kept me away.
quote:
On November 21, 2006 Jonathan Pollard entered his 22nd year of a life sentence for providing classified information to Israel.

Ever since Pollard was able to obtain the unclassified titles of the documents that were used as evidence against him, and these titles were published in a petition to Israel's High Court of Justice, there can be no doubt that the information Pollard passed to Israel concerned Syrian, Iraqi, Libyan and Iranian nuclear, chemical and biological warfare capabilities - all being developed for use against Israel.

It also included information on ballistic missile development by these countries and information on planned terrorist attacks against Israeli civilian targets. The US was deliberately withholding this vital information, despite a legal commitment to share this data with its ally, Israel.

Even a glimpse at the record shows that Pollard, who spied for an ally of the US, was sentenced far more severely than the most notorious spies for enemy states - all of whom are free today. A few examples:

* Michael Walker, part of the infamous Walker spy ring, was arrested in 1985, the same year as Pollard. The ring operated for 17 years, selling sensitive US military secrets to the Soviet Union, causing what authorities described as extensive damage to national security. He was sentenced to 25 years. Walker is a free man today.

* Clayton Lonetree, a marine sergeant guarding the US Embassy in Moscow, spied for the KGB and was sentenced in 1987 to 30 years. He gave the Russians the floor plans of the US embassies in Moscow and Vienna. His sentence was reduced three times. Lonetree is a free man today.

* Richard Miller is the first FBI agent ever tried for espionage. He turned over secrets, including a counterintelligence manual, to the Soviets. He was sentenced to 20 years. Miller is a free man today.

* Abdelkader Helmy, a missile researcher, was sentenced in 1989 for selling technology related to the Condor Missile project to Egypt which found its way to Iraq. He got 48 months and served considerably less. Helmy is a free man today.

* Samuel Morison, a US Navy analyst, removed scores of confidential material, including photos he sold that were printed in Jane's Defense Weekly. The photos were classified SCI; exposing such sensitive material carries a mandatory life sentence.

The grandson of an illustrious naval historian, his family ties are the only way to explain why in 1985 he was sentenced to only two years, and served only three months. What is more, in spite of extreme opposition by the CIA to clemency, Morison received a full pardon from former president Bill Clinton in January 2001. Morison is a free man today.

* Ronald Montaperto, a former pentagon analyst, gave highly classified information to the Chinese for more than a decade. This seriously damaged US national security by hampering efforts to track China's covert arms sales to nations sponsoring terrorism. Montaperto was recently sentenced to three months in prison.

Unlike the above-mentioned, Pollard was never convicted of treason. Nor was he ever accused of damage to the United States in a formal indictment - only in the media, where he could not respond to his accusers. The only offense Pollard was ever indicted for was one count of passing classified information to an ally.

IN 1998, ending years of denial, the Israeli government admitted that Pollard was its agent and granted him formal recognition. By definition, an agent works out of commitment to a country, not for profit. Once he was recognized as a bona fide Israeli agent, any speculation about Pollard's motive was put to the lie.

Pollard never had a trial. He was coerced into a plea-bargain agreement, which he honored and the US abrogated. In spite of the fact that he pled guilty and cooperated fully with the prosecution, at the last minute the sentencing judge ignored the plea deal and sentenced Pollard to life.
...
From www.freepollard.org

Discuss.

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Passing on classified information to any other country is an extremely serious offense, the statement makes it sound like stealing bubble gum. It does not matter what he "felt" was right, that is not his decision to make. Neither one of us knows what was actually in the documents passed, for all we know there could have been a lot of things that were really, really bad included in there.

As a part of inaccuracy, many (if not all) of the people mentioned that were convicted were not tried nor convicted of treason, but with espionage.

[ Thursday, November 23, 2006 07:31: Message edited by: *i ]

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quote:
Wikipedia


Mordechai Vanunu (Hebrew: מרדכי ואנונו; born in Marrakech, Morocco, October 13, 1954), also known by his baptismal name John Crossman, is an Israeli former nuclear technician who revealed details of Israel's nuclear weapons program to the British press in 1986. He was subsequently abducted in Rome by an Israeli Mossad agent and smuggled to Israel, where he was tried in secret and convicted of treason.

Mordechai Vanunu spent 18 years in prison, including more than 11 years served in solitary confinement. Vanunu was released from prison in 2004, subject to a broad array of restrictions on his speech and movement. Since then he has been briefly arrested several times for multiple violations of those restrictions, including giving various interviews to foreign journalists and attempting to leave Israel. The court proceedings are ongoing, as well as Vanunu's appeal to the Supreme Court of the restrictions on his speech and movement.

In early September 1986, Vanunu flew to London with Hounam, and in violation of his non-disclosure agreement, revealed to The Sunday Times his knowledge of the Israeli nuclear program, including photographs he had secretly taken at the Dimona site. Anxious to avoid being duped by another Hitler Diaries-sized hoax, The Sunday Times spent extensive time verifying Vanunu’s story with leading experts.[10] Vanunu states in his letters that he intended to share with the Anglican Church of Australia some of the money received from the newspaper for the information. Apparently frustrated by the delay while Hounam was completing his research, Vanunu approached a rival newspaper, the tabloid Sunday Mirror, whose owner was Robert Maxwell. In 1991, a self-described former Mossad officer called Ari Ben-Menashe alleged that Maxwell had tipped off the Mossad, possibly through British secret services, about Vanunu. It is also possible that they were alerted by enquiries made to the Israeli Embassy in London by Sunday Mirror journalists.

The Israeli government had a good relationship with Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher, so to avoid embarrassment it was important to get Vanunu out of UK territory under his own volition. The territorial integrity of Italy did not receive the same respect. Knowing Vanunu's interest in women, on September 30, an Israeli Mossad agent, Cheryl Bentov, operating under the name of "Cindy" and masquerading as an American tourist, persuaded him to fly to Rome with her on a holiday. Once in Rome, Mossad agents drugged him and smuggled him to Israel on a freighter, beginning what was to be more than a decade of solitary confinement in Israeli prisons.

In 2004, shortly before his scheduled release, Vanunu remained defiant under interrogation by the security service Shin Bet. In recordings of the interview made public after his release, he is heard saying "I am neither a traitor nor a spy, I only wanted the world to know what was happening." He also said, "We don't need a Jewish state. There needs to be a Palestinian state. Jews can, and have lived anywhere, so a Jewish State is not necessary."[8]

Vanunu was released from prison on April 21, 2004. He indicated a desire to completely dissociate himself from Israel, initially refusing to speak in Hebrew, and planning to move to Europe or the US[13] as soon as the Israeli government would permit him to do so. He denounced most of his family, but maintains a relationship with at least one of his brothers.

A number of restrictions were placed upon Vanunu by Israeli authorities, who stated their reason was fear of him spreading further state secrets and that he is still bound by his non-disclosure agreement. These stipulate that he:

* has to register to live in an Israeli city of his choice.
* has to give notice to the authorities if he wishes to travel to another city.
* is not allowed to leave Israel. This restriction has since been extended to April 2006,[14] and yet again to April 2007 due to his violations of court rulings. While a court found in 2005 that he should be free to go to the Gaza Strip and West Bank, the 2006 restrictions explicitly forbade him to visit either, reversing the court's initial decision.
* is not allowed to contact foreigners either by phone or in person or by e-mail.
* is not allowed to enter or approach any embassy, visit any port of entry, or come within 500 metres of any international border crossing.

Vanunu says that his knowledge is now all outdated, and that he has nothing more he could possibly reveal that is not already widely known. Despite the stated restrictions, since his release Vanunu has freely given interviews to the foreign press, including a live phone interview to BBC Radio Scotland.

On April 22, 2004, Vanunu asked the Norwegian government for a Norwegian passport and asylum in Norway for "humanitarian reasons," according to Norwegian news agencies. He also sent applications to other countries, and stated that he would accept asylum in any country because he fears for his life. Former conservative Norwegian Prime Minister Kåre Willoch has asked the conservative government to give Vanunu asylum, and the University of Tromsø has offered him a job. This application, as well as an application for asylum in Sweden has been rejected, since neither country accepts absentee asylum applications. He also unsuccessfully requested asylum in Ireland, which would require him to first be allowed to leave Israel. It has been reported that he also approached Russia and China about political asylum, but it is not known whether he has submitted official asylum applications to these countries. [citation needed]

Since his release, Vanunu has appeared in Israeli courts on numerous occasions on charges of having broken the sanction. He was arrested and detained for attempting to go to Bethlehem, on at least one occasion his room in St. George's Cathedral was raided by policemen and his belongings were confiscated. In 2006, Microsoft was accused[15] of helping Israeli police to obtain documents incriminating Vanunu.

International calls for his freedom of movement and freedom of speech made by organizations supporting Vanunu have been either ignored or rejected by Israel.

http://www.vanunu.org/

Discuss.

[ Thursday, November 23, 2006 07:58: Message edited by: Arancan'tremembertherest ]

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There was a report during one of the attempts to gain clemency during the second Bush administration by an intelligence expert that had access to the files pass on to Israel that one of those files that so outraged the first Bush administration was a list of agents hired by the US through Saudi Arabia during the Soviet invaison of Afganistan. The main agent was Osama bin Ladin. Before 9/11 Osama was on our payroll.
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quote:
Before 9/11
Sure? :P

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quote:
Originally written by *i:

Passing on classified information to any other country is an extremely serious offense, the statement makes it sound like stealing bubble gum. It does not matter what he "felt" was right, that is not his decision to make. Neither one of us knows what was actually in the documents passed, for all we know there could have been a lot of things that were really, really bad included in there.

As a part of inaccuracy, many (if not all) of the people mentioned that were convicted were not tried nor convicted of treason, but with espionage.

Except that the documents that he took legally belonged to Israel. Whether or not there was anything really, really bad in there, it was not America's to withhold. Stealing something you own from a thief is hardly a life sentance crime. In fact, I'd be extremely surprised if someone that did that got any more than a few months.

I'm sorry for the inaccuracy, as I was unaware of the exact defenition of the word. But the point remains the same, he was not convicted of espionage either.

[ Thursday, November 23, 2006 08:01: Message edited by: radix malorum est cupiditas ]

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quote:
Originally written by Arancan'tremembertherest:

http://www.vanunu.org/
And he was released after commiting a crime. With less time than many spies that reveal nuclear secrets to other countries.

EDIT: tags

EDIT2: Also he wasn't put through all the courtroom shenanigans that Pollard was.

[ Thursday, November 23, 2006 08:06: Message edited by: radix malorum est cupiditas ]

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It's not quite as one-sided as that. Wikipedia has an even-handed presentation of what may or may not have happened, and discusses the sentencing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Pollard

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quote:
Except that the documents that he took legally belonged to Israel. Whether or not there was anything really, really bad in there, it was not America's to withhold. Stealing something you own from a thief is hardly a life sentance crime. In fact, I'd be extremely surprised if someone that did that got any more than a few months.
You really do have an oversimplified view of the matter. Pollard was likely doing a lot more than you claim. As to exactly what, it's unlikely we will ever know.

If you read the open literature on the matter, you can see that he likely gave other things to Israel (despite his claims to the contrary) that they did not need to have. This information was likely sold by Israel to other nations causing serious harm to the United States defense and intelligence capabilities.

Point is, he was a spy. Even if he felt that Israel should have these documents, that is not his decision alone to make. As for questions of legality, I think this is a lot more complicated than that. The US is required to share information regarding Israel's defense so long as it is not contrary to US security interests. A sovereign country always has the right to protect its own security regardless of other agreements.

Also: please do not double post.

[ Thursday, November 23, 2006 08:12: Message edited by: *i ]

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quote:
Originally written by radix malorum est cupiditas:

quote:
Originally written by Arancan'tremembertherest:

http://www.vanunu.org/
And he was released after commiting a crime. With less time than many spies that reveal nuclear secrets to other countries.

EDIT: tags

EDIT2: Also he wasn't put through all the courtroom shenanigans that Pollard was.

The agents who abducted him in Italy committed a crime. Pollard committed a crime.

Frankly, you should keep well away from arguing the legality of any of this.

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quote:
Originally written by Charged Slartile:

It's not quite as one-sided as that. Wikipedia has an even-handed presentation of what may or may not have happened, and discusses the sentencing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Pollard

Yes, that was stated later in the article, along with the fact that there was no proof given for any charges aside from the passing of nonsensetive documents to Israel. Nor will there ever be, because if there were, they would already have been made public knowledge. (I mean the proofs, not the accusations).

All the claims that Pollard was charged with remind me of the Loose Change video.

[ Thursday, November 23, 2006 08:22: Message edited by: radix malorum est cupiditas ]

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quote:
Originally written by *i:

quote:
Except that the documents that he took legally belonged to Israel. Whether or not there was anything really, really bad in there, it was not America's to withhold. Stealing something you own from a thief is hardly a life sentance crime. In fact, I'd be extremely surprised if someone that did that got any more than a few months.
You really do have an oversimplified view of the matter. Pollard was likely doing a lot more than you claim. As to exactly what, it's unlikely we will ever know.

If you read the open literature on the matter, you can see that he likely gave other things to Israel (despite his claims to the contrary) that they did not need to have. This information was likely sold by Israel to other nations causing serious harm to the United States defense and intelligence capabilities.

Point is, he was a spy. Even if he felt that Israel should have these documents, that is not his decision alone to make. As for questions of legality, I think this is a lot more complicated than that. The US is required to share information regarding Israel's defense so long as it is not contrary to US security interests. A sovereign country always has the right to protect its own security regardless of other agreements.

Also: please do not double post.

Except that nothing was presented in the case aside from "nonsensetive documents". The rest of the charges were made years later and no proof has been found for them.

Also, I was under the impression that it was understood that when responding to two seperate posts, especially in a debate, double posting is allowed. Obviously this doesn't apply to some, like Tully or I. You know, the kind that disagrees with your point of view.

quote:
Originally written by Arancan'tremembertherest:

The agents who abducted him in Italy committed a crime. Pollard committed a crime.
It is in any secret service agency's purview to bring any traitors to their home countries for trial. One that if it is indeed a crime, it's sentance should have been over at least 18 years ago.
quote:
Frankly, you should keep well away from arguing the legality of any of this.
And why is that?

[ Thursday, November 23, 2006 08:41: Message edited by: radix malorum est cupiditas ]

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Actually, that brings up something I've always wondered. Infernal, you have very strong convictions. Most people here seem to disagree with them (with greater and lesser degrees of politeness, unfortunately).

Why do you bring up this stuff HERE? I mean I understand that you like to debate it, but do you really enjoy arguing about it with people who aren't receptive to your opinions?

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quote:
Originally written by Charged Slartile:

Actually, that brings up something I've always wondered. Infernal, you have very strong convictions. Most people here seem to disagree with them (with greater and lesser degrees of politeness, unfortunately).

Why do you bring up this stuff HERE? I mean I understand that you like to debate it, but do you really enjoy arguing about it with people who aren't receptive to your opinions?

Because I hope to educate at least a few. There is no point in debating something that receives no opposition.

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quote:
Also, I was under the impression that it was understood that when responding to two seperate posts, especially in a debate, double posting is allowed. Obviously this doesn't apply to some, like Tully or I. You know, the kind that disagrees with your point of view.
No, you use the same post and just clearly separate the two arguments. Whenever I see a double post (I know I miss some) I try to remind people to use the edit feature. Yours was not abusive, that's why I was quite polite in asking you not to do it.

[ Thursday, November 23, 2006 09:21: Message edited by: *i ]

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We have in the past encouraged double posting in debate topics when responding to two separate posts.

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Eh, whatever. It's irrelevant either way. I'd say as long as it's reasonable it's okay. In this case, the two posts were short enough that they could have been combined with no confusion. Generally the edit feature is preferred rather than spreading out to numbers of smaller posts.

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quote:
Originally written by radix malorum est cupiditas:

Because I hope to educate at least a few. There is no point in debating something that receives no opposition.
Well, to be perfectly honest... it tends to come across as rather one-sided Israeli propaganda. To me, at least.

For instance, from your arguments here, it sounds as if it's okay for Israeli spies to steal intelligence from the U.S., but an intelligence leak to another nation is unacceptable. The two crimes (I feel comfortable calling them both crimes) only differ in which direction the intelligence flows.

Also, this...

quote:
Originally written by radix malorum est cupiditas:

Except that the documents that he took legally belonged to Israel.
Explain how U.S. intelligence belong to a foreign nation.

EDIT: Meh. Typo.

[ Thursday, November 23, 2006 12:43: Message edited by: Ephesos ]

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I think that it's less about the crime and more about the punishment. Which, when you look at it, is incredibly "unfair", given precedent.

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quote:
Originally written by Ephesos:
Explain how U.S. intelligence belong to a foreign nation.

The US has entered into agreements with different countries, usally allies, over the years to share intelligence that is important to those countries, Israel has provided intelligence to the US about countries of interest to us and during past wars information about the effectiveness of US military weapons versus Soviet Union weapons back during the Cold War. In some cases Israel shipped captured Soviet planes and other intact items to the US for analysis.

Pollard contended that the information he passed on to Israel was covered under an agreement and was being withheld from Israel contrary to that agreement.
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Randomizer: Okay, fair enough... though it still seems a bit hazy.

And I guess the punishment is a bit off-base if compared to the precedents listed, but it doesn't mean that the precedents were right.

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I'm not an expert in espionage or legal precedent, but it seems to me that the punishment vastly outweighs the (negligible) harm done. It's quite possible that America is making an example out of Pollard to show that it can be tough on allies as well as enemies.

—Alorael, who doesn't think it seems right. He doesn't think his opinion carries much weight, though, since he knows next to nothing about the issues.
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I'm not an expert in espionage or legal precedent, but it seems to me that the punishment vastly outweighs the (negligible) harm done. It's quite possible that America is making an example out of Pollard to show that it can be tough on allies as well as enemies.

—Alorael, who doesn't think it seems right. He doesn't think his opinion carries much weight, though, since he knows next to nothing about the issues.
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What it comes down to is that he, acting on his own, does not have the right or authority to make those decisions. He may feel Israel had a right to know, but others who viewed those documents may have disagreed -- again, we don't know, none of us have actually seen the documents in question. Additionally, he was an Israeli spy and could hardly be considered an objective arbiter on the matter. Quite plainly, this was not his determination to make and is a crime, period.

On face the punishment may seem harsh looking at the precidents. Personally, I feel those precidents were a bit too lenient. Granted many of the details behind these cases remain classified due to the nature of the crime so it's very difficult to give a fully objective analysis.

Alorael: Unfortunately, we do not know the full scope of the harm done. The general policy regarding classified information is "no comment". Often in these matters a lot more happens than what can be told. I guess that's the problem with us arguing this whole issue: none of us really know the full truth because we cannot know the full truth because we don't need to know the full truth.

[ Thursday, November 23, 2006 19:58: Message edited by: *i ]

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That you find Pollard's punishment unacceptable and Vanunu's acceptable tells an impartial observer all they need to know about you: you are a chauvinist crank and expecting to receive any useful information from you is unreasonable.

My understanding, by the way, is that Pollard offered information to the Israeli government and Vanunu information to the British press. Similar behavior, different gravity.

One reason we're withholding information from Israel, by the way, is that you have a nasty habit of bullying your neighbors and forcing us to bail you out diplomatically. It's destroyed our rapport with the middle east. Further, if the IDF decides to make some kind of misconcieved 'first strike' against Iran - the sort of thing it does ALL THE DAMN TIME - then we face having to bail you out militarily.

We don't have the resources to take on Iran, and given how thirsty you people are for Muslim blood, we really don't want to give you any more slack than you absolutely need to function. Even the right wing, which is all in favor of you slaughtering brown people under normal circumstances, recognizes how much of a liability you've become to our foreign and military policy.

Maybe if you behaved like civilized human beings we wouldn't be forced to hide our intelligence data from you. And part of that involves not bombing first and asking questions later.

[ Friday, November 24, 2006 15:09: Message edited by: The Worst Man Ever ]
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