Sex! Yay!
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Agent
Member # 5814
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written Monday, September 18 2006 17:58
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quote:What determines a person's sexual preferences? God? Hormones? (and please state whose) Genes? Psychological influences? Different combinations? EDIT: Environment? Most of you would state that it's genes+hormones and possibly a little psych, which is great and probably supported by recent scientific data and so on, but here's a curve-ball: that would make people like pedophiles and people who are attracted to animals sufferers of an incredible burden which most "civilized" societies do nothing to alleviate; if anything, they consistently persectute pedophiles to a greater extent. [ Monday, September 18, 2006 18:27: Message edited by: Papal Legate Pablo ] -------------------- quote: Posts: 1115 | Registered: Sunday, May 15 2005 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 1092
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written Monday, September 18 2006 18:08
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There have been similar topics started and failed miserably to a point. In before the lock. EDIT- The topics I saw anyways, or what I saw of them. [ Monday, September 18, 2006 18:11: Message edited by: Cairo Jim ] -------------------- When you think you can't get any lower in life and hit rock bottom, God hands you a shovel. Why should I say somthin intelligent when idiots like you make me look intelligent in the first place. Posts: 615 | Registered: Friday, May 3 2002 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Monday, September 18 2006 18:12
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There has been some recent research showing that enviroment can alter genetic behavior. Certain genetic traits or predispositions will appear depending upon the enviroment during pregnancy and even later in life. Still there isn't enough research to show what determines sexual behavior and especially aberrant behavior. I saw one study that stated that young siblings were more likely to be homosexual, although the methodology isn't that great. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Monday, September 18 2006 18:13
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I would probably put a higher weighting on psychology than you're suggesting, but that's just a wild guess. But regarding paedophilia, I actually have a lot of sympathy for those who suffer from it. I'm sure there are a lot of such people who are disgusted by their own sexual instincts and deathly afraid that they might one day act on them in a moment of weakness. And it's not a problem that you can really admit to anyone, even your very closest friends. Living like that would be hell. -------------------- SupaNik: Aran, you're not big enough to threaten Ash. Dammit, even JV had to think twice. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 1092
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written Monday, September 18 2006 18:19
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quote:Maybe not. I heard spmething on the radio (I think) that people that were hit a lot and weren't positively touched when young can mess up their psychology and can affect their sexual behaviour big time. -------------------- When you think you can't get any lower in life and hit rock bottom, God hands you a shovel. Why should I say somthin intelligent when idiots like you make me look intelligent in the first place. Posts: 615 | Registered: Friday, May 3 2002 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 3364
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written Monday, September 18 2006 18:20
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The same thing that determines their favorite color, food and hobby. Did you try it/ think about trying it? Did you enjoy it/ enjoy thinking about it? A plesant experience leads to preference for that experience. I've tried peppers dozens of times over my lifetime. Almost every time was unplesant, thus a dislike for peppers. I gave them another try just this week and found they weren't that bad. Tastebuds change, preferences change. Plesant/unplesant experiences can change preferences. -------------------- "Even the worst Terror from Hell can be transformed to a testimony from Heaven!" - Rev. David Wood 6\23\05 "Do all the good you can, by all the means you can, in all the ways you can, in all the places you can, at all the times you can, to all the people you can, as long as you ever can." - John Wesley Posts: 1001 | Registered: Tuesday, August 19 2003 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 3040
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written Monday, September 18 2006 18:24
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quote:Sounds like a slippery slope towards "rehabilitating" homosexuals... -------------------- 5.0.1.0.0.0.0.1.0... Posts: 508 | Registered: Thursday, May 29 2003 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 3364
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written Monday, September 18 2006 18:44
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Bah, everybody's bi. Most just don't know it. Tastebuds change over time, but they can't be forced to change. If you don't like how peppers taste, you don't like the experience of tasting them. I would argue that sexual preferences can also change over time, but any attempt to speed up the process would inevidably just lead to more bad experiences. [ Monday, September 18, 2006 18:55: Message edited by: Jewels ] -------------------- "Even the worst Terror from Hell can be transformed to a testimony from Heaven!" - Rev. David Wood 6\23\05 "Do all the good you can, by all the means you can, in all the ways you can, in all the places you can, at all the times you can, to all the people you can, as long as you ever can." - John Wesley Posts: 1001 | Registered: Tuesday, August 19 2003 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Monday, September 18 2006 19:12
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There's nothing recent about environment affecting phenotype. We've known that there's more to us than just genes for a while. Actually, there have been several studies showing links between preferred flavors and genetics, too, so make of preference what you will. On the other hand, it is preference. I think nobody has suggested (yet) that genes can give everyone uncontrollable urges. You can prefer without acting upon it. Ultimately, the origin of homosexuality is only of importance in trying to cure or prevent it, which isn't something that strikes me as particularly beneficial. Isn't overpopulation a problem? —Alorael, who thinks that pedophilia should probably be left out of the thread. These are family boards, remember? Actually, don't be terribly surprised by summary locking, but do try to remain civil. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Monday, September 18 2006 19:47
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Actually I'm suprised that deprogrammers of homosexuality risk imprisonment for kidnapping, etc. for a few thousands of dollars when they could put their skills to better use. Go after rich weak minded people and "convince" them to hand over larger sums of money in an untraceable form. After a few jobs they could retire to someplace with weak extradition laws. Spending a portion of their pay to create jobs in a depressed economy and they won't have any problem getting the local authorities to agree they couldn't have done anything wrong if anyone comes after them. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Monday, September 18 2006 20:10
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quote:If someone wants to change their sexual orientation, why not let them? -------------------- SupaNik: Aran, you're not big enough to threaten Ash. Dammit, even JV had to think twice. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Monday, September 18 2006 20:32
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As originally posed by #5814: quote:My fiancee and I prefer sex with each other, something affected by hormones, our refined taste, and the proximity of suitable locations. That really is all that should matter to anyone, about anyone. Pedophilia is for kids. Necrophilia is for the dead. Zoophilia is for the dogs. -------------------- quote: Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Monday, September 18 2006 20:34
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quote:That's some pretty enticing bait you're offering. What kind of hook is hidden in there? -------------------- quote: Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Monday, September 18 2006 20:34
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... if they want to, I presume? -------------------- Encyclopaedia Ermariana • Forum Archives • Forum Statistics • RSS [Topic / Forum] My Blog • Polaris • I eat novels for breakfast. Polaris is dead, long live Polaris. Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair. Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Monday, September 18 2006 20:39
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quote: quote:Heck, this isn't even a hypothetical in terms of this community. We have a member who is gay, doesn't want to be gay, believes it is possible to change his sexuality, and fully intends to try. Whatever "slippery slope" ends with allowing him to do so, I'm all for it. It's not like anyone goes around kidnapping homosexuals and forcing them to become straight. [ Monday, September 18, 2006 20:44: Message edited by: Ash Lael ] -------------------- SupaNik: Aran, you're not big enough to threaten Ash. Dammit, even JV had to think twice. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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Dollop of Whipped Cream
Member # 391
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written Monday, September 18 2006 20:51
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All I have to say is that this topic has the best title ever. :P -------------------- "Tyranicus is about the only one that still posts in the Nethergate Forum." —Randomizer Spiderweb Chat Room Shadow Vale - My site, home of the Spiderweb Chat Database, BoA Scenario Database, & the A1 Quest List, among other things. Posts: 562 | Registered: Friday, December 14 2001 08:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Monday, September 18 2006 21:02
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quote:FYI - I've yet to hear of any nefarious movement to kidnap heterosexuals and force them to become gay. Just in case you were worrying about it; because given your attitude, and deep seated need to encourage heterosexuality, I felt you would be able to sleep better at night knowing that it is only homosexuals that are needlessly persecuted by legions of well meaning scripture cultists. I eagerly await hearing from you that your encouragement to those wishing to explore the joys of heterosexuality extends across the brotherhood of man and embraces all those among the members of this forum who are deeply comfortable in their sexuality and feel no need to explore relations with a different sex, whichever might be their current fruit of choice. :) -------------------- quote: Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 3040
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written Monday, September 18 2006 21:45
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The chain of implications I had in mind was: It is possible for one's sexual orientation/preference to change => It may be possible to induce change in someone's sexual orientation => If so, then homosexuals should be converted into heterosexuals whenever possible. I admit that I assigned this contrived chain of logic to Gizmo's (or are you only Jewels now?) statement in part because she is a self-avowed fundamentalist Christian. Upon further reflection, I realized that I should not have made any assumptions about Gizmo's beliefs in this matter. Indeed, for all I know she may believe that all heterosexuals should be converted to homosexuality. quote:Perhaps not, but I'd guess there are people who would do that if it were possible. -------------------- 5.0.1.0.0.0.0.1.0... Posts: 508 | Registered: Thursday, May 29 2003 07:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Monday, September 18 2006 22:10
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quote:What the hell are you talking about? The argument I have made is for people to be allowed to make their own decisions about their own sexuality - whether or not they embrace it, whose advice they listen to, whatever. Do you have a problem with this or something? -------------------- SupaNik: Aran, you're not big enough to threaten Ash. Dammit, even JV had to think twice. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Monday, September 18 2006 22:24
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quote:The (possibly imagined) implication that a homosexual would wish to change their sexuality, while no heterosexual ever would. Actually, I think someone who wants to change their sexuality can do so on their own - it's not like it's an illness like alcoholism and needs to be treated medically. -------------------- Encyclopaedia Ermariana • Forum Archives • Forum Statistics • RSS [Topic / Forum] My Blog • Polaris • I eat novels for breakfast. Polaris is dead, long live Polaris. Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair. Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Tuesday, September 19 2006 04:22
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quote:It's not an illness. What it *does* have in common with alcoholism is that it's a complicated feature of a person that spans biological, psychological, and social factors. We're not talking about changing a swatch here. A person can certainly change the expression of their sexuality on their own. People do that all the time. It's not so easy to change your underlying desires -- and sexuality encompasses more than just sexual desires, although those are the flashiest part of it. (For the same reason, I dislike the use of the term "preference" -- it simplifies sexuality absurdly to call anything about it a preference. It is a preference, but it is also so much more; it would be like calling a war a transaction in which two countries resolve a problem. Factual, but awfully misleading.) For me, anyway, physical desire is not the determining factor in my sexuality. I could probably change that to a certain degree using behavior therapy, along the lines of what Jewels was talking about, if I wanted to -- depending on how much of that is learned behavior and how much is determined by hormones, brain development, or some other immutable biological factor. What I don't think I could change without gross psychological trauma is my experience of intimacy as fulfilling or not, which is quite separate from physical desire but definitely connected to gender. In this case, it doesn't matter how much of it comes from biology or from childhood experiences -- it's all so deeply rooted that it's not going to change without psychological reverberations, catastrophic in course. quote:Ash, I agree with your sentiments, but here's the rub. How likely would you have been to say the same thing, phrased the same positive way, if wz. As had instead said: Sounds like a slippery slope towards "rehabilitating" heterosexuals to be gay... Maybe you would have been equally likely to say it; I'm skeptical, but I could be wrong. However, because you are perceived by others (rightly or wrongly) as being overtly somewhat tolerant of but, in your heart, in opposition to homosexuality, people interpret it in a context. quote:So, hypothetically speaking, suppose we have a member who is straight, doesn't want to be straight, believes it is possible to change his sexuality, and fully intends to try. You would be just as much behind him? quote:No. However, there are parents who force their teenage children to attend reparative therapy, sometimes even residentially. I have never heard of any parent forcing a straight child to attend therapy to turn gay. There is an argument in favor of letting parents force such therapy, to be sure. We hold up freedom of religion, but allow parents to force religion on their children; why should sexuality be any different? That's a tough question if you ask me. Religion and sexuality are both social constructs that relate to critical human needs on an individual level that can be immensely painful when improperly addressed. (This is true even in an atheistic conception of things, where religion fills certain psychological needs rather than spiritual ones; and even in an antireligious conception, the argument is just that it doesn't fill them optimally, so the comparison holds.) But I digress. The point is that, whether or not you think it is good or reasonable for people who aren't straight to be pressured to change their sexuality, non-straight people are pressured in profuse ways, both overt and subtle, to change their sexuality, or at least its expression. Kidnapping and brainwashing are not the only ways to influence someone. Straight people do not face this kind of pressure to change their sexuality. So I'm not sure what you are getting at with the remark I quoted. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Tuesday, September 19 2006 07:06
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I think that we can all agree that it's wrong to try to force someone not to be gay. I don't think that's even in question here. I think we all are also aware that homosexual people experience pressure — whether direct intolerance or just a sense of "societal pressure" — to act more straight. Sometimes this pressure is more self-imposed than not, and sometimes it is very much the result of parental influence or the like. This pressure is generally bad. I'm fairly certain that we can all agree that mature adults should have the right to make their own decisions about their sexuality: how or even if to express it, with whom, etc. If all of these are taken as given (if anyone objects, speak up), then the question that remains is if it is ever healthy or appropriate for a person to want to change from gay to straight or the other way around. (Believe it or not, some girls actually do feel pressure to be bisexual, to do things with other girls.) Clearly it is not healthy if that desire to change stems from external pressure. I'd say that it's also not healthy if that desire to change comes from the belief that being gay is morally wrong, although that may be up for debate. I don't know of any other reason that a person would want to change in that way, although that's not to say that there can't possibly be any. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2210
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written Tuesday, September 19 2006 08:58
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Being a piece of toast, I have a thing for electric toasters and hot butter. -------------------- Wasting your time and mine looking for a good laugh. Star Bright, Star Light, Oh I Wish I May, I Wish Might, Wish For One Star Tonight. Posts: 1084 | Registered: Thursday, November 7 2002 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 3364
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written Tuesday, September 19 2006 09:42
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quote:Gizmo is my formal moniker, Jewels is a self-assigned nickname. I left out my religous beliefs on this matter on purpose. Whether or not homosexuality is morally wrong is a moot point because there are many ways for heterosexuality to be morally wrong as well. It being right or wrong does not change whether you find it pleasurable or not. Maybe less so for feelings of guilt but if it feels good, it feels good regardless. I don't think orientations are intentionally convertable, you get what you get and you don't throw a fit, but the orientation may change on it's own due to life experiences, body changes, hormone fluxuations, etc. There is no telling, though, what specific life experience would influence a change or which way the experience will swing the pendulum until after the fact. Thus no way to effectively 'rehabilitate' if that's what you want to call it. To address Kel's question, not all external pressure is bad. I would say the pressure to eat right even though you really crave those potato chips and chocolate chip cookies is a good pressure. It's only at the extremes that it gets dangerous. The pressure to be so thin that you starve yourself, for example. Getting back to sex, the pressure to abstain until marriage I view as good. It prevents multiple diseases, unwanted pregnancies and abortions that inevidably follow, and emotional baggage from relationships gone wrong or regrets from any of the previous. The pressure not to be gay, or not to act gay does have it's rewards. Avoiding the persecution for one, which even though it shouldn't exsist, does. Then there are the same benefits as abstanence of preventing multiple diseases and emotional baggage. There is also procreation to keep in mind. So one must weigh the pros and the cons, which could entail denying yourself pleasure, engaging in unplesant activities, not having an intimate relationship you would have enjoyed, etc. It depends on what you really want out of life and ultimately is an individual's perogative to want change. I'd call it very healthy for someone to want to change their orientation for the purpose of procreation and traditional family. Traditional family is not neccessesary, but it is often desired. [ Tuesday, September 19, 2006 09:44: Message edited by: Jewels ] -------------------- "Even the worst Terror from Hell can be transformed to a testimony from Heaven!" - Rev. David Wood 6\23\05 "Do all the good you can, by all the means you can, in all the ways you can, in all the places you can, at all the times you can, to all the people you can, as long as you ever can." - John Wesley Posts: 1001 | Registered: Tuesday, August 19 2003 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2759
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written Tuesday, September 19 2006 09:59
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Not sure I agree with Jewels there. The way I see it, sex doesn't have a moral dimension, but relationships do. Thus an abusive relationship (where one party has undue power over the other, for example an adult/child relationship, teacher/pupil or wife-beater/wife) is morally wrong. On the other hand "non-standard" sexual activities, provided both (or all) parties involved are freely consenting, is not subject to moral objections. I simply don't see any grounds for moral objection to a homosexual relationship if both parties are adults capable of giving consent freely. Quite where this viewpoint leaves prostitution is of course open to debate. -------------------- "I can't read this thread with that image. But then, that's not a complaint." -Scorpius Geneforge 4 stuff. Also, everything I know about Avernum | Avernum 2 | Avernum 3 | Avernum 4 Posts: 1104 | Registered: Monday, March 10 2003 08:00 |
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