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AuthorTopic: Satanism
Member # 1558
Profile #50
What he really means is that he walks out of his way to throw something in a garbage can instead of tossing it onto the ground, etc.


I think. You're right, he could've made his point much clearer.

I re-read his post and even my simple example doesn't fit his description:
1. "I don't ... want to do [it]"
2. "I [have] no incentive to do [it]"

[ Monday, April 10, 2006 21:18: Message edited by: stranger ]

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Posts: 1112 | Registered: Friday, July 19 2002 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 335
Profile Homepage #51
Littering is punished. We frown upon litterers in general, and there can be hefty fines. Many people feel bad if they litter. Enough litter makes the area ugly and harms the environment, which is ultimately bad for all of us.

You say that throwing garbage in the trash can has no positive reinforcement or negative consequences?

In other news, I think I need to step back and admit that the evolution argument has become apples and oranges. I've explained where our thinking and society comes from biologically. TM says that we're more than just selfish impulses. That's true; we don't think selfish thoughts, we think all kinds of thoughts, selfless among them. The primary cause of our ability to think altruistically is selfishness, strange as that seems.

Because we can think, our actions are motivated by much more complex interactions of emotions and thoughts and beliefs than I've been discussing. Does selfishness still apply? Yes. Do other thiings? Obviously, or nobody would, say, sacrifice himself for an unrelated friend. Maybe our primal urges lump friends in as family. Maybe evolution just gave us an altruistic framework upon which every individual builds. That's a question for sociologists or psychologists, which I am not.

I'd just like to point out, though, that saying altruism isn't altruism because it has selfish genes at its roots makes as much sense as saying imagination is meaningless because it's just a bunch of electrical impulses. Animals, even humans, are the sum of very prosaic parts. That doesn't reduce what we are as a whole.

[Edit: As always, disproof of any statement by counterexample is welcome. Specifics are good.]

—Alorael, who has now sufficiently recanted without actually taking back what he said. The Inquisition can just put him under house arrest now.

[ Monday, April 10, 2006 21:21: Message edited by: Hors d'oeuvre or ordure+V? ]
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Member # 6912
Profile #52
I think what a lot of people are trying to say is that a good portion of humans has pointless sympathy. We help people that cant possibly help us. We waist tons of resources on disabled and mentally ill instead of using an 85 cent bullet and calling it a night. There is no true survival value in this! Absolutely none!, but we do it regardless.

This however could be looked at as a “side-effect” of evolution. Those who cared about each other had a higher survivability probability (hey that rhymes) some one has already pointed it out. Let me put this in lame words: people who cared about people in a tactical wolf pack way bred and created people who care about ppl in a non tactical way. Both exist today. The reason evolution has not filtered out one is kos on the long run neither has any significant advantage over the other. (assuming of course there is no resource shortage)

History fact disproving some points: during the reign of Ivan the Mad Russia experienced mad food shortages. There are many stories about a families leaving one out of their 3 kids in the woods because they could only feed two. Killing new borns during food shortages is not all that uncommon in other areas. When push comes to shove we can be a lot worse than a wolf pack when it comes to choosing who lives and who dies.

About the zombies post, if anyone here disagrees do the same math if it was 100 or hell 5000 people and see just how true this is. Alone we are nothing but bold soft monkeys together we are the most dangerous predator in the world. Oh and about some one not helping you after you helped him. I am going to use Thomas Hobbes and his passage in Leviathan. I am paraphrasing here. No one knows the future and is thus uncertain of his own life. This uncertainty drives you to accumulate power. Power is defined as anything which helps you get what you want and power limits uncertainty . Thus a person would help due to the need to gain a friend and limit uncertainty (god I oversimplified this beyond belief but explaining this could be a term paper)

edit: Typo

[ Monday, April 10, 2006 23:00: Message edited by: rantalot ]
Posts: 89 | Registered: Wednesday, March 15 2006 08:00
Member # 6600
Profile Homepage #53
Originally by Alorael:

[Edit: Diki, that's part of the reason why the vast majority of cultures (not all, but most) place the most emphasis on protecting and providing for the nuclear family, then the extended family, and so on. The closers the relationship, the more of your genes you share, so the more of "you" is passed on if those relatives have children.]
I wasn't disagreeing with you. I was merely pointing out that there are enough advantages in recombining genes to justify it. Otherwise we'd all clone ourselves.

Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00
Law Bringer
Member # 2984
Profile Homepage #54
Taking half a minute to explain the way to some street or other instead of mumbling "sorry, I don't know" and walking off, for example? It's the little things that count, surely...

I don't think it's an aberration as such. I get a very good feeling when I know I have been useful to someone. Note that this feeling is seamlessly related to the good feeling that results from fame, recognition and admiration - I don't claim my "drive to be useful" to be selfless at all.

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Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00
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Profile #55
And a happy birthday to Anton LaVey.

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Posts: 883 | Registered: Wednesday, October 19 2005 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 335
Profile Homepage #56
Giving street directions takes practically no effort and makes someone's life easier. You get to feel good, and it's part of our evolutionary pact of altruism. Street directions are free, so we give them freely in the knowledge that one day we'll be lost too.

—Alorael, who doesn't see what LaVey ever did for him to deserve happy birthday wishes.
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00