The Conservative Shift
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E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Tuesday, February 21 2006 21:20
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Like it or loathe it, it's an undeniable fact that western society has started to move towards a more religious, conservative mindset. Opinions are turning against abortion, Intelligent Design is on the rise, and on and on the list goes. I'm fascinated by this. Such a large effect surely has a cause - the question is what is it? I have an opinion, but I'd like to see some other people's thoughts first. -------------------- SupaNik: Aran, you're not big enough to threaten Ash. Dammit, even JV had to think twice. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6489
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written Tuesday, February 21 2006 21:22
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I think that it is merely a response to the liberal shift of the past forty years or so. These things go back and forth. It's probably a lot more complicated than this, but that is my opinion. -------------------- "You're drinking liquor because you're thirsty? How nasty is your freaking water?" —Lazarus Spiderweb Chat Room Avernum RP • Summaries • OoC • Roster Shadow Vale - My site, home of the Spiderweb Chat Database, BoA Scenario Database, & the A1 Quest List, among other things. Posts: 1556 | Registered: Sunday, November 20 2005 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 4153
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written Tuesday, February 21 2006 21:31
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I think that in America (assuming that America counts as the West here, and not just its own autonomous pit of idiocy), a lot of the swing to the right comes from a response to past liberalism, as Tyranicus said. I think there are still some echoes of reactions to the 60s and 70s, because the people who lived through these times are now in power and determined to avoid returning to them. Past that, I think there's a lot to be said for blaming terrorism and how the American government has portrayed it from day one. Fear of said terrorists makes people want to fall back on rock-hard ideas and beliefs, something which the radical conservative viewpoint has always been ready to offer. One last point: I think that saying most of the western world is swinging right doesn't quite cover everything... Hugo Chavez seems to be trying socialism. -------------------- Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice. I hate undead. I really, really, really, really hate undead. With a passion. Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 4
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written Tuesday, February 21 2006 21:39
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Part of the reason for the shift is people claiming that there's a shift. Other reasons include: * We are all ultimately mindless and cruel barbarians * We need to be reactionary but the status-quo is the shambles of postmodernism * Humanity has lost its empathy and needs a way to compensate -------------------- * Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 6388
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written Tuesday, February 21 2006 22:02
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I have been denying and will continue to deny that there has been a rightward shift in America, the English world, or the West. The cause of the appearance of one lies within two factors: a. A lack of unity within the populace after the defeat of the last common enemy. The Soviet Union posed an immediate and credible threat to the life of every person in the West; the Islamist forces we are fighting now represent at most an abstract enemy in everyday life, superior only in tactics. They do not have the ability to scour us from the face of the earth all at once. As a consequence: the pretense of social unity having been disrupted, the extreme right is capable of acting in a more aggresive fashion without violating the rules of civil conduct in society. The lack of unity has allowed the center of discourse to drift rightwards, even if the participants in the discourse remain the same. And the modern conservative advocates a dizzying, contradictory, and factually bankrupt platform, asserting everything from the necessity of wars of imperial expansion to the immorality of destroying fetal tissue for any reason. A collection of lurid superstitions have risen up to fill the gap where once existed only the phrase 'God-damn communists!' We have the world, and we no longer know what to do with it, and while the left navel-gazes, the right tries to drag them kicking and screaming off a cliff. b. The increasing volume of the right. The simple fact is that the conservatives are louder right now; a random sampling of TV media would suggest, if the spin of news coverage and analysts can be considered representative, that an impossibly large percentage of the American populace holds a viewpoint at its leftmost center-right. The right wing has been spending a lot of real and intellectual capital being loud; note that liberals anywhere near as loud as their opposite numbers on the right enjoy a great deal more popular success - compare your Moores and your Clintons against your Savages and your Ginriches and see who has gotten farther and done more, and is ultimately more popular. The reason for the appearance of rightward shift, at least here, is that it has been hammered into us from 1994 that there has been a 'conservative revolution'. The lurid paranoia of our conservative Congress during the Clinton administration was a continuous embarassment to the American people, but the media coverage centered not on that embarassment but on righteous outrage against Bill Clinton for lying about blowjobs and wanting to raise taxes. The 2004 election, won by the narrowest margin of any sitting President in a war and continuing the trend of re-electing wartime Presidents, was called a victory for 'moral values' voters (to wit, too little of the electorate to secure a single electoral vote alone) and a 'mandate' for the right-wing forces that stole control of the country after the 2000 election to continue their irresponsible nonsense. The conservatives are loud, so they have been successful. Loud is good for you in terms of politics. But loud won't compensate for failure, and there is no other word to describe the policies of the right. They have been jumping with both feet into a war with the only culture more evangelical, tenacious, and bloodthirsty than our own. They have slashed the functions of government to the point that it barely fulfills the social contract any more. And as soon as the electorate realizes they are all bark and no bite, The Conservative Shift will be out on its ass where it belongs. And some day you will realize just how little anyone cares about your whining about women being able to abort what they feel like and men being able to marry each other if they feel like it and school prayer being rightfully in the same boat as school paddling. If you want to make the world a better place, apply your religion to your everyday life, and in so doing convince the world of its righteousness. Stop trying to force it on everyone else when salesmanship fails you. Posts: 794 | Registered: Tuesday, October 11 2005 07:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Tuesday, February 21 2006 22:39
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quote:Out of curiousity, how do you really feel? -------------------- quote: Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Tuesday, February 21 2006 22:46
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quote:Well-said. Immensely so. -------------------- Encyclopaedia Ermariana • Forum Archives • Forum Statistics • RSS [Topic / Forum] My Blog • Polaris • I eat novels for breakfast. Polaris is dead, long live Polaris. Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair. Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 3898
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written Tuesday, February 21 2006 22:48
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quote:Sorry, only TM can do stuff like that well. -------------------- ~Note : The professional newbie's advice should not be taken seriously, or at all.~ LINKAGE Posts: 364 | Registered: Saturday, January 17 2004 08:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 4
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written Tuesday, February 21 2006 22:53
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Where the hell have you been for the last 4 years? -------------------- * Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Tuesday, February 21 2006 23:27
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Snappy comeback notwithstanding, a software install took my computer into restart while I was smartifying my original response. a. No unifying cause isn't all the problem. There are too damn many causes asking for our attention. Save the [insert creature or environment] or stop [imminent disaster] and leave the planet in better shape for our children. Hell, if a person did all that stuff they would have no time to eat, breathe, or lock their doors to keep out the meth freaks. Information overload, insane time crunches, and inflexiblity in the space-time continuum all play a part. Inevitably it becomes easier to let some other take some of those responsibilities of our shoulders. It is a shame that more moderates (social and fiscal) aren't willing to shoulder the burden. Perhaps they... b. Don't SHOUT! Please. There has got to be some sort of topical survey on the voting pamphlet which flags uninformed voters and tosses out their vote. It is oft-repeated that the candidate or cause that saves the most advert dollars for the last 5 days before voting will always win the election. With all the junk in an average life, hearing the name "Joe Quimby" 50 times the day before voting might just win him the election. Since we've experienced the best, or most qualified, candidates not even making the primary cut, it is certain that existing political parties are out of touch with regular Americans. As such, one can not expect a viable government in this country. The social contract exists only at the level of the IRS. -------------------- quote: Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Wednesday, February 22 2006 09:01
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The numbers have shifted in favor of conservatives a little bit, but the real advancement has been in conservative planning and organization. Right now the conservatives have all the most skillful people to make the middle lean conservative and the people who are conservative on any issue support all conservative causes. —Alorael, who expects that this will last only as long as conservative leadership stays skillful (not good!) and liberal leadership stays relatively poor or quiet. Then politics will shift again. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Nuke and Pave
Member # 24
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written Wednesday, February 22 2006 09:48
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Like Tyranicus said, I think current cituation is just a natural stage in the liberal-conservative cycle. The pengilum swung far left in the 60s and has now swung equally far to the right. These cycles happen continually throughout history. I don't know as much about American history, but in Russian history there is a clear pattern of generation-long liberal-conservative cycles corresponding first to different tzars and then different prime ministers: A liberal tzar would start writing a constitution, then his conservative successor would undo as many reforms as he could. Then a new liberal tzar would start liberal reforms again. Similar thing happened in Soviet times: liberal policies of 1920s were followed by Stalin's repressions, followed by exposition of Stalin's crimes, followed by Breznev's (milder) repressions, followed by another liberalization (leading to USSR's collapse), followed by Putin's tightening of controls. Somebody who knows a lot about American history could probably show a similar pattern there. -------------------- Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword, For it too has the power to kill. However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword, Can also have the power to heal. Posts: 2649 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 6700
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written Wednesday, February 22 2006 10:30
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Wait... there's a shift going on? Why wasn't I told??! In seriousness, I'm gonna have to agree with Tyrannicus. It's just a cycle of action and reaction. Each "position" goes a little too far, and as a result, eveyone runs the other way until they cross the line in that direction. -------------------- The Silent Assassin is currently contemplating how a major political shift will affect the market for deranged subterfuge. Let's just say that he isn't happy. -------------------- -Lenar Labs What's Your Destiny? Ushmushmeifa: Lenar's power is almighty and ineffable. All hail lord Noric, god of... well, something important, I'm sure. Posts: 735 | Registered: Monday, January 16 2006 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Wednesday, February 22 2006 13:47
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quote:I disagree. I think that the conservative shift will reverse itself as soon as the liberal side can stop its damn infighting and sniping at each other and instead unite under a single platform. The left agrees on far too little. (The war? D's are hopelessly divided.) Dems need to learn the lesson that R's learned a long time ago: speak speak no ill of and do no ill towards each other. As far as a pendulum swinging back and forth: the pendulum didn't swing left in the '60s, at least not in the late '60s. Doesn't anyone remember that Reagan won his governorship in '66 and Nixon the presidency in '68? The pendulum was already in the left, thanks to FDR, and the late sixties saw, if anything, a slight conservative reaction in voting patterns. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Wednesday, February 22 2006 13:53
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quote:Where the heck did this come from? I was looking at the "shift" (real or imagined, suit yourself) from an objective point of view, and in response I get a personal attack. That, my friend, is a staggering act of dickheadery. -------------------- SupaNik: Aran, you're not big enough to threaten Ash. Dammit, even JV had to think twice. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 4
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written Wednesday, February 22 2006 16:22
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quote:I find the notion that the democrats are "leftist" to be repugnant. quote:Way to play the religion card. In particular, I find your contention that the "shift" is "real or imagined" to be one hell of a backpedaling from the victory dance you were doing at the beginning of the thread. If nothing else, Alec's "attack" (and I take objection with this insinuation as well) is deserved. I could go further, but at this point, I scarcely have to. -------------------- * Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Wednesday, February 22 2006 16:41
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quote:Huh? What are you on, exactly? [quote]In particular, I find your contention that the "shift" is "real or imagined" to be one hell of a backpedaling from the victory dance you were doing at the beginning of the thread.[/quote]Backpedaling? Yes. Simply because that wasn't the important point. Victory dance? Absolutely not. [quote]If nothing else, Alec's "attack" (and I take objection with this insinuation as well) is deserved. I could go further, but at this point, I scarcely have to.[/quote]Note the usage of the word "You". Who else could he have been addressing? It was definitely an attack, and it was definitely undeserved. -------------------- SupaNik: Aran, you're not big enough to threaten Ash. Dammit, even JV had to think twice. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 4
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written Wednesday, February 22 2006 17:18
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You poor, persecuted christian. I'm having a fiddle concert tonight. No need to worry about the lighting. We'll be serving freshly-fed lions for the main course. -------------------- * Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 6388
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written Wednesday, February 22 2006 17:43
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quote:To be fair, I am a staggering dickhead. I was fairly tired and a little on the sick side when I wrote my original post; if you wish, disregard the end of the post, aimed at the right wing in general (also, I tend to feel that discussion of a conservative shift tends towards pointless gloating by conservatives - I've run into the same topic before and it comes out the same way, generally) and consider the rest of it as a whole. I have a very low opinon of the American conservative leadership right now; they hold basically the entire country in contempt (including their followers, who they think so little of that they have a thriving industry in opinion books devoted to lying to them) and consider everyone around them as basically pawns to further their own ends, which are usually schemes to gain as much filthy lucre as possible as quickly as possible. And that's more or less that. [ Wednesday, February 22, 2006 18:01: Message edited by: Belisarius ] Posts: 794 | Registered: Tuesday, October 11 2005 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Wednesday, February 22 2006 17:57
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There is a time and place to hate Ash for his faith. The time is not now and the place is somewhere that doesn't have Spiderweb's CoC. His "victory dance" was stating that he is fascinated by the shift. The "real or imagined" was in response to others, including me, who denied the overwhelming size of the shift. Ash didn't even bring up religion until you did except to mention that religious values are part of the shift. If you're going to debate, debate actual points raised and stay away from the ad hominem. —Alorael, who brings you this message on behalf of puppies, kittens, and other frequent victims of acts of God. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Wednesday, February 22 2006 18:06
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quote:There is? Oh, dear. :( In other news, new sig ahoy! -------------------- SupaNik: Aran, you're not big enough to threaten Ash. Dammit, even JV had to think twice. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Wednesday, February 22 2006 18:15
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I'm... not entirely sure that the word "dickhead" belongs in one's sig. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Wednesday, February 22 2006 18:25
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Fixed. :P -------------------- SupaNik: Aran, you're not big enough to threaten Ash. Dammit, even JV had to think twice. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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Master
Member # 4614
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written Wednesday, February 22 2006 18:37
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What, conservative shift? People hate Bush for starting a war, the Ten Commandments are being taken out of our courtrooms, and all talk of Jesus is banned from our public schools. It's more of a liberal shift if you ask me. It just seems different because we conservatives have picked up a few executive seats. But that's just because we're so good at getting the point across. :P -------------------- -ben4808 Posts: 3360 | Registered: Friday, June 25 2004 07:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 4
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written Wednesday, February 22 2006 18:47
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"People hate Bush for starting a war," Yeah. Poor bush- people hate him for generating insane amounts of body piles. It's just not fair for the insanely wealthy and sociopathic anymore. "the Ten Commandments are being taken out of our courtrooms," We do not try people by the laws of your backwards, primitive and ontologically-challenged deity, however much you like to think that you "burn-in-hell-and-like-it" types have the copyright on screwing people over. "and all talk of Jesus is banned from our public schools." It's a state-operated venture. There are plenty of places to pray. The classroom is no such place, and every time prayer is conducted, the big lie of america's being the christian paradise is steadily furthered. "It's more of a liberal shift if you ask me." Nobody did. Go back in your hole. "It just seems different because we conservatives have picked up a few executive seats." A few executive seats? If you mean executive, then you cold-blooded killers have all of them. That's how it works. If you mean legislative or judicial, then your statement is less vaccuous. "But that's just because we're so good at getting the point across." Yeah. And that point is, 'Elect bush or you might just become impotent or a fag.' EDIT: And something to be more disturbed about- when, in any point in history (including the 1940s), has the propaganda machine been stronger? Hell, when has it been even half as strong? [ Wednesday, February 22, 2006 18:49: Message edited by: Prometheus ] -------------------- * Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |