Holy Mac Windows Batman!
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Saturday, January 14 2006 17:06
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I'm with Thuryl on the hentai. No matter how disgusting it is, and I have it on the best of authority that some can sap your will to live quite rapidly, it's drawn. Pornography involving the photography of real people can and does cater to the more exotic tastes as well, and that's degrading to the people involved as well as (arguably) the viewer. The facts that anime fans have unsavory elements and that there is terrible anime around do not amount to a valid condemnation of anime. That's like judging all science fiction by the worst pulp, all horror by Manos, or all Star Wars movies by Episode I. I'm sure there is anime that is good in all respects but visually, and that's obviously a matter of taste. —Alorael, who is not himself a fan of anime, bad or good. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Saturday, January 14 2006 17:08
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quote:So to you, what's depicted is more important than what actually happened? How interesting. I guess you also think that every actor who's played a murderer in a movie should be given a long term of imprisonment, then. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Saturday, January 14 2006 18:13
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I really don't want to hear or see any form of porn in any media form. And that counts for books too. Dikiyoba swears that in one book Dikiyoba read, at least a third of it was porn. Needless to say, the book was terrible. Let's take a perfectly good plot and do nothing with it but throw in a bunch of porn. And then everyone dies (I secretly blame STDs) and the book ends. Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 1468
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written Saturday, January 14 2006 18:55
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quote:No. The key word in that sentence is Actor. Nobody really got killed. Now if there was a video of an actual murder, then the person in the video should be imprisoned. In (legal) porno, it depicts consenting adults, doing things of their own free will (hence the word 'consenting'). If the people are consenting and of legal age, then to me it's no different than an animated porno. Nobody is being forced to do something they don't want to. They put themselves in that situation. Besides, are you saying that since watching porno with children is bad, that watching porno with animated children is any better? quote:I'm not really fond of porno myself either. I equate it to window shopping. In both, you're looking at something you might enjoy, but you're not going to get anytime soon. quote:I've heard of movies like that. They take a perfectly horrible plot, spend $35 making the movie, then throw in a bunch of porn to make sure that the maximum possible number of men watch their movie. quote:Having friends that love anime (I've got a friend with about 100GB on anime on his PC), I can honestly say the only thing anime that has ever appealed to me is the Megaman X games. quote:Not really. If they didn't like it, then they shouldn't have opted to be in the porno. If they were forced into it, then the producers of the porno should be arrested and/or shot, and all known copies of the porno deleted/destroyed. quote:Why would you watch a porno if it's degrading to you? -------------------- "We can learn a lot from crayons. Some are short, some are dull, some are sharp, some are tall. Some have funny names and they are all different colors, but they all learn to live in the same box." "Happy is the man that has wisdom and gets discernment. For having wisdom as gain is better than having silver as gain and having wisdom as produce is better than gold itself" Proverbs 3:14-3:15 The horrible part about life is, you'll never get out of it alive. Currently boycotting: AngelFire, GameFAQ's, Macintosh PC's Posts: 818 | Registered: Tuesday, July 9 2002 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Saturday, January 14 2006 19:04
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quote:Seems like a pretty simplistic view of consent. Working in a lousy job because one has no better options may technically be a consensual arrangement, but it's hardly an ideal one. quote:Of course. I'm not sure how one could argue the latter isn't better, since it doesn't involve the actual abuse of a child. (Incidentally, it's also perfectly legal in the USA, thanks to a recent Supreme Court ruling.) [ Saturday, January 14, 2006 19:05: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 1468
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written Saturday, January 14 2006 19:22
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quote:They're still the ones that got themselves into that situation. It's not my (or anyone else's) fault that they dropped out of high school and/or didn't apply for a normal job. Surley if it was that degrading, they'd quit and get a low-paying job cleaning toilets or something. quote:It's still very wrong. Watching animated porno with children would likely cause a potential child molester to become one, or it may cause them to start watching real child porn, contributing to the abuse. Either way, both forms should be eliminated (gee, thanks a lot Supreme Court, you just added to the problem). -------------------- "We can learn a lot from crayons. Some are short, some are dull, some are sharp, some are tall. Some have funny names and they are all different colors, but they all learn to live in the same box." "Happy is the man that has wisdom and gets discernment. For having wisdom as gain is better than having silver as gain and having wisdom as produce is better than gold itself" Proverbs 3:14-3:15 The horrible part about life is, you'll never get out of it alive. Currently boycotting: AngelFire, GameFAQ's, Macintosh PC's Posts: 818 | Registered: Tuesday, July 9 2002 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Saturday, January 14 2006 19:25
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quote:How far do you want to take that line of argument? Should all art that depicts illegal acts be banned on the off chance that some potential criminal is inspired by it? [ Saturday, January 14, 2006 19:26: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Saturday, January 14 2006 20:08
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The more an idea is floated around, the more acceptable it becomes. For example: Studies have shown that people who were somehow abused as children grow up to be abusers and that people who harm humans usually started by harming animals. The general child who plays violent video games isn't guaranteed to grow up to be a killer but may be more likely to be able to go out and actually kill someone. On a semi-related note, someone needs to point out to the pro-life groups who oppose the vaccination to eliminate the virus that causes cervical cancer because it might encourage premarital sex to wake up and think about all the women who die each year because they don't have the vaccination. It's more complicated then that, but still... Dikiyoba warns you never to trust an extremist. They will distort the values they represent. Dikiyoba is extreme about that. Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 1468
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written Saturday, January 14 2006 20:53
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This is a very complex issue. I'll try to make as much sense as possible. Child porn doesn't "inspire" sickos, it "triggers" them. It's something that's always there in a sicko, even if they don't notice it. Sometimes, the person can go on functioning like a normal person without ever doing anything disgusting, much like a bomb without a detonator. The "bomb" won't go off on it's own, it has to have something to trigger it. Things like violent videogames might "inspire" violence in real life, but likely, if you get inspired by a game to commit violence, you have already committed a violent act, or will commit one. Violent sickos are like a crate of dynamite next to a fire. The slightest nudge in the wrong direction will set them off, and are probably going to commit a crime eventually. Child molesters are like a brick of C4 without a detonator. It takes something specific to set them off, and without that, there's a chance they can go on normally. So therefore, child porn should be banned whether it is real or fake, because that's what sets off the sickos, and things depicting other crimes (like homicide) shouldn't be banned becuase those kinds of criminals are likely going to commit crimes anyways. quote:Actually, I find they will more often distort the facts to support the values they represent. quote:You would probably have to have some sort of other mental problem to be affected that way by violent videogames. I've read that violent videogames can make you less likely to commit a crime (blow up people in videogames --> relieve anger --> less stress --> less likely to commit a violent crime). -------------------- "We can learn a lot from crayons. Some are short, some are dull, some are sharp, some are tall. Some have funny names and they are all different colors, but they all learn to live in the same box." "Happy is the man that has wisdom and gets discernment. For having wisdom as gain is better than having silver as gain and having wisdom as produce is better than gold itself" Proverbs 3:14-3:15 The horrible part about life is, you'll never get out of it alive. Currently boycotting: AngelFire, GameFAQ's, Macintosh PC's Posts: 818 | Registered: Tuesday, July 9 2002 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Saturday, January 14 2006 20:56
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quote:Do you have any evidence, preferably from a reputable psychological journal, to support these assertions? -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 1468
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written Saturday, January 14 2006 21:09
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It's mostly stuff I've heard and read in the past. Do you have any scientific studies to prove otherwise? Anyways, I actually do know a child molester (he's dating my mother, she's the only one that doesn't hate him). He spent some time in jail for it, and I keep my pocketknife handy at all times around him, because he also happens to be a violent person. It takes very little to get him violent, but he has only done (--ommitted so I don't have to wash my hands and/or get banned--) once or twice in the past. -------------------- "We can learn a lot from crayons. Some are short, some are dull, some are sharp, some are tall. Some have funny names and they are all different colors, but they all learn to live in the same box." "Happy is the man that has wisdom and gets discernment. For having wisdom as gain is better than having silver as gain and having wisdom as produce is better than gold itself" Proverbs 3:14-3:15 The horrible part about life is, you'll never get out of it alive. Currently boycotting: AngelFire, GameFAQ's, Macintosh PC's Posts: 818 | Registered: Tuesday, July 9 2002 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Saturday, January 14 2006 21:27
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Ah. Well, if this is a personal issue for you, I can understand that. I won't press the matter any further. Apologies if I caused any offence; it's something of a personal issue for me too. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Saturday, January 14 2006 21:37
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Your argument for why pornography isn't wrong or degrading because the actors chose their jobs because they're poor and/or uneducated extends a few more steps. They're poor because they're defective or lazy people, and that's their problem. That's also the perfect justification for absolute, unmitigated capitalism, and that view tends to be unpopular on Spiderweb. Political debates never go anywhere. [Edit: I can't let go of anything. It's a definite failing.] —Alorael, who doesn't quite understand how the conversation has drifted into this rather unpleasant subject that doubles as something of a straw man. Even if child pornography is evil and wrong in all forms, which is a very reasonable assertion, that doesn't say a thing about why hentai is worse than acted pornography or why anime is bad. [ Saturday, January 14, 2006 21:39: Message edited by: Cruniac ] Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 1468
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written Saturday, January 14 2006 21:50
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Yes, we have gone wayyy off topic. quote:I'll have to agree with you there. quote:No offence taken, I hope I didn't cause any myself. -------------------- "We can learn a lot from crayons. Some are short, some are dull, some are sharp, some are tall. Some have funny names and they are all different colors, but they all learn to live in the same box." "Happy is the man that has wisdom and gets discernment. For having wisdom as gain is better than having silver as gain and having wisdom as produce is better than gold itself" Proverbs 3:14-3:15 The horrible part about life is, you'll never get out of it alive. Currently boycotting: AngelFire, GameFAQ's, Macintosh PC's Posts: 818 | Registered: Tuesday, July 9 2002 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Saturday, January 14 2006 22:25
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If you think that pornography is wrong because working in a degrading profession that one loathes is wrong, then I hope that you don't ever eat any fast food or anything that has been grown on a large farm. I hope that you basically never shop at department stores. I could go on. There are many kinds of degradation in this world that can be found in many kinds of professions. For that matter, there are lots of products that have been touched one way or another by humiliation and hatred. [ Saturday, January 14, 2006 22:33: Message edited by: Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 1468
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written Saturday, January 14 2006 22:32
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Hey, Kelandon got a new custom title. [ Saturday, January 14, 2006 22:33: Message edited by: Eldibs ] -------------------- "We can learn a lot from crayons. Some are short, some are dull, some are sharp, some are tall. Some have funny names and they are all different colors, but they all learn to live in the same box." "Happy is the man that has wisdom and gets discernment. For having wisdom as gain is better than having silver as gain and having wisdom as produce is better than gold itself" Proverbs 3:14-3:15 The horrible part about life is, you'll never get out of it alive. Currently boycotting: AngelFire, GameFAQ's, Macintosh PC's Posts: 818 | Registered: Tuesday, July 9 2002 07:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Saturday, January 14 2006 23:46
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I knew I shouldn't have read through the last two dozen posts. Now I have to go look at some porn *this message sponsored by dirk diggler* -------------------- quote: Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 4239
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written Sunday, January 15 2006 10:07
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quote:Can you name a single product that isn't? Apologies if this is too political and such topics are disliked. -------------------- There are two kinds of game players...those who are newbies, and those who were. Posts: 322 | Registered: Monday, April 12 2004 07:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Sunday, January 15 2006 11:10
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Given that this topic is still going strong, I guess not. People may not like it but they still post here. At least this is a rational discussion. It has trouble staying on topic and it's heated, but it's not a flame fest. It's probably the first discussion I've heard that hasn't dissolved into stupid ranting within five sentences. Originally by Alorael: quote:I believe that fits the description of the outdated "social Darwinism" theory very well, which the people on top used to stay on top. We should oppose such ideas because very few people can be on top and even fewer can stay on top for their whole lives. Just ask the dinosaurs. Dikiyoba. Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Sunday, January 15 2006 12:35
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Very few jobs are likely to generate the level of instant recognition and notoriety as pornography, and few jobs are stigmatized as much as pornographic acting. Once you've been in pornography, your life is difficult. Once you've worked at McDonald's, you're not going to face any difficulties with other jobs. [Edit:, comma, hell, problem.], [Edit 2: Oops. "You're in trouble" and "your life is difficult" don't average to "you're life is difficult."] —Alorael, who is glad to know that the number of Blademasters is back down to two. Now if only he could get Seletine Canned... [ Sunday, January 15, 2006 19:07: Message edited by: Semistapling Incident ] Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 1468
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written Sunday, January 15 2006 14:09
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quote:That doesn't mean you can't get another job. A person who really wanted to get out of the porno business could probably at least get a job flipping burgers or cleaning toilets (preferably not both at the same time) in a small town. -------------------- "We can learn a lot from crayons. Some are short, some are dull, some are sharp, some are tall. Some have funny names and they are all different colors, but they all learn to live in the same box." "Happy is the man that has wisdom and gets discernment. For having wisdom as gain is better than having silver as gain and having wisdom as produce is better than gold itself" Proverbs 3:14-3:15 The horrible part about life is, you'll never get out of it alive. Currently boycotting: AngelFire, GameFAQ's, Macintosh PC's Posts: 818 | Registered: Tuesday, July 9 2002 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Sunday, January 15 2006 14:22
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You must admit, that does seem to be a rather limited set of future career options. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Sunday, January 15 2006 14:26
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All because they choose to do that porn video instead of becoming the C.E.O. of a major corporation. Seriously, I don't think that many porn actors were going to be really high-paid, successful people anyway. It's not pornography that's at fault here; it's a much larger issue than that, one involving upward mobility. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Sunday, January 15 2006 14:32
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I see your point. The trouble with porn in particular is that apart from being an industry that you can't really move out of, it's also an industry that you can't count on staying in until the usual retirement age; once you're no longer pretty enough or no longer able to perform when you're expected to, you're going to find yourself out of a job. And once that happens, woe betide you if you've picked up expensive habits instead of saving during your career. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Sunday, January 15 2006 15:57
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Systematic problems aside, I still think there's a fundamental difference between a dead-end retail job and a dead-end porn career. In addition to career life expectancy, there's also a level of raised eyebrow and muttering when you respond to the inevitable, "So, what do you do?" This can be see as a problem with societal attitudes rather than pornography, though. —Alorael, who wouldn't want to entirely discount the niche market for those who are no longer as young as they used to be. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |