Drug Debate Thread for the Rest of Us

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AuthorTopic: Drug Debate Thread for the Rest of Us
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Since the Great Debate thread was explicitly intended as a debate between two people, if you are not Ash or Alec, please debate the merits or otherwise of drug decriminalisation in THIS thread.

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I just don't trust that people buying drugs will use moderation. Therefore the problems they create would cancel out benefits of controlling the sale of drugs. And hey, wouldn't this plan only work if the government did it perfectly? Since when has anyone done something perfectly?

The banning method isn't perfect, but offenders are being caught, good things are happening. If these changes were introduced, how long would it take for it to work as well as banning does now?

[ Friday, June 17, 2005 18:06: Message edited by: An Upright stranger ]

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quote:
Originally written by An Upright stranger:

Weed is addictive, I don't know what some of you are on, go to NIDA or somewhere.
Marijuana is habit-forming, not physically addictive. Wikipedia, which has everything, spells out the difference more or less effectively here.

Shall I take the silence on the facts about increased use due to legalization to be an indication that no one actually knows? I suppose it's not unlikely that no one has conducted rigorous studies of the effects of different forms of legalization, but I'm still a little bit surprised.

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quote:
Originally written by An Upright stranger:

I just don't trust that people buying drugs will use moderation. Therefore the problems they create would cancel out benefits of controlling the sale of drugs. And hey, wouldn't this plan only work if the government did it perfectly? Since when has anyone done something perfectly?
People who buy drugs already fail to use moderation, partly because the variability in purity of their product prevents them from doing so. Safety of users can be improved with further initiatives such as supervised injection. Legalisation may indeed lead to some increase in drug use, but to determine just how large that increase would be, how about we conduct a survey?

If you, the reader of this post, don't use illegal drugs, and the only reason you don't use illegal drugs is because they're illegal, reply to this topic and say so. Let's see what proportion of SW's hundreds of active members fall into that category.

Furthermore, your claim that legalisation would work if and only if carried out perfectly (whatever "perfectly" means in this context) is an insubstantiated and rather implausible assertion.

[ Friday, June 17, 2005 18:10: Message edited by: Thuryl ]

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Well, I just figured that people who had wanted to use some but couldn't be bothered builing up the contacts required, would walk in and do it once it became as simple as that.

EDIT: Um, supervised injection? Do you mean, every single user with be catalogued, with time/date of last dose, and everything this entails? How much will this cost?

I don't think those who post on a games message boards would give anything near a fair or true view.

[ Friday, June 17, 2005 18:16: Message edited by: An Upright stranger ]

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I'm tired of the strain and the pain ___ ___ ___ I feel the same, I feel nothing
Nothing is important to me ___ ___ ___ ___ __ And nobody nowhere understands anything
About me and all my dreams lost at sea ___ __ But we’re not the same, we’re different tonight
We’ll make things right, we’ll feel it all tonight _ The indescribable moments of your life tonight
The impossible is possible tonight ___ ____ ___ Believe in me as I believe in you, tonight

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"I don't particularly want my rich neighbours to use crack as much as they like, let alone my teachers and lecturers, and definately not my boss at work."

That's why most people who come to the job drunk get fired immediately.

"Yes, drug money is up to no good, but if the government allowed widespread drug use, than wouldn't hospitals, rehab centres and the acts of control/policing/anti-corruption etc guzzle up the revenues, leaving everything the same as before, but with the added bonus of lots more people high on crack, heroin and P?"

Aside from the fact that your woefully lacking knowledge of the market has already been corrected, you missed a few things:
A. Most smokers/injectors/(whatever you call people who stick stuff on their eyes) do so casually.
B. There is no extra policing for drugs under the provided legislation. All forms of enforcement will merely be juxtaposed with current alcohol legislation.
C. You fail to understand the definition of the word "corruption"- which, in this instance, is being used to describe the black markets which government-funded hallucinogen distribution would essentially eliminate. (See, I dunno, the last few pages for a slew of black market arguments.)

"What else ... drug use is self destructive. I don't want people in positions of power, authority and responsibility to self destruct, there will be problems."
(Already addressed)

"Well, at least in NZ, there have been three murderers put in jail recently who were high on P and really don't know what happened. Drug use is self destructive until it changes your behavour, then it becomes harmful to others."

If you get super-crazy-drunk and axe a man, then you are charged for murder. Drug use should be no different- what you are providing is an example of murder. If you plan on shooting up on any given evening, it's best to do so in a situation where you stand a reduced chance of doing something destructive.

(And for reference, if "P" is referring to PCP, it'd still be illegal according to Alec's plan.)

"Finally, long term drug use is bad, negative effects on areas the drugs have contact with. Weed affects brain, lungs etc. Maybe there would be lawsuits similar to those being carried out with cigarettes? Would advertising for these drugs be banned like for cigarettes? Many of these drugs are addictive, so is the government just wanting to get in on some ching-ching while these drug users kill themselves softly?"

First off, I find your comparison of hallucinogen usage and feminism to be obscene. (RE: your last sentence.)
Second off, if the weed comes with a warning (which would ideally read, "I'm roughly half as deadly as a cigarette and infinitely more pleasurabe"), there can be no lawsuits.
Thirdly, assuming they're dealt with in a way that cigarettes are, no- they wouldn't have advertisements.

"Would this mean steroids become legal? What about the problems which come with this?"

I doubt steroids would become legal (although that's Alec's call, ultimately), but even if they were to become such, any directors of athletic events would merely scan players for steroid usage. (And considering that only athletes would do that sort of crap, I'm not sure what actually changes.)

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quote:
Originally written by An Upright stranger:

Um, supervised injection? Do you mean, every single user with be catalogued, with time/date of last dose, and everything this entails? How much will this cost?
I think the idea is more to get people clean needles that don't have HIV on them rather than to track everyone who uses injectable drugs.

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quote:
Originally posted (in the other thread) by Student of Trinity:
My point wasn't that buying drugs is like murder, except in being illegal but inevitable. It was just to criticise one particular argument, namely, the seemingly pragmatic appeal to bring something inevitable under control by legally accepting its inevitability. As far as I can see at the moment, this argument was one of the strongest ones for legalizing drugs, and it is now gone without a trace.

I regret this. I liked that argument, and I'd be happy to see it rebut my criticism and come back somehow. I just don't see how it will, at the moment, myself.

There are good non-legal reasons to avoid using recreational drugs (health, employment, etc). By contrast, there is no compelling reason not to kill someone you sufficiently dislike, other than the fact that you are likely to spend a long time in prison for doing so. Therefore, legalising murder is likely to have a more dramatic effect on the prevalence of murder than legalising drug use will on the prevalence of drug use.

(I oversimplify the matter, of course; even in a lawless society, people eventually wise up and work out that murdering people is a bad idea when they have friends who can do the same to you. Still, the threat of starting a vendetta is a rather uglier way of keeping murder down than the rule of law.)

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"There is no extra policing for drugs under the provided legislation. All forms of enforcement will merely be juxtaposed with current alcohol legislation."
- Where is the provided legislation, so I can have a look?

"(And for reference, if "P" is referring to PCP, it'd still be illegal according to Alec's plan.)"
- Where is Alec's plan, so I can have alook?

"First off, I find your comparison of hallucinogen usage and feminism to be obscene. (RE: your last sentence.)"
- What? I'm sorry, I don't know what you're talking about.

[ Friday, June 17, 2005 18:24: Message edited by: An Upright stranger ]

--------------------
I'm tired of the strain and the pain ___ ___ ___ I feel the same, I feel nothing
Nothing is important to me ___ ___ ___ ___ __ And nobody nowhere understands anything
About me and all my dreams lost at sea ___ __ But we’re not the same, we’re different tonight
We’ll make things right, we’ll feel it all tonight _ The indescribable moments of your life tonight
The impossible is possible tonight ___ ____ ___ Believe in me as I believe in you, tonight

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You might want to, you know, read the other topic. Alec's first long post there explains it pretty clearly.

EDIT: That said, TM's incomprehensible/wrong on a couple of counts. Alec said PCP would be recognized as bad, not illegal.

[ Friday, June 17, 2005 18:26: Message edited by: Kelandon ]

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Yeah, that's what I thought. I haven't seen anything so far that specifies which drugs are in/stay out.

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I'm tired of the strain and the pain ___ ___ ___ I feel the same, I feel nothing
Nothing is important to me ___ ___ ___ ___ __ And nobody nowhere understands anything
About me and all my dreams lost at sea ___ __ But we’re not the same, we’re different tonight
We’ll make things right, we’ll feel it all tonight _ The indescribable moments of your life tonight
The impossible is possible tonight ___ ____ ___ Believe in me as I believe in you, tonight

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http://www.ironycentral.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=002543;p=2

quote:
Originally posted by Alec:
I believe in full legalization of all currently controlled substances.
I'd say that's pretty clear.

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quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

EDIT: That said, TM's incomprehensible/wrong on a couple of counts.
What, you wanna dance?

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Originally written by CSTR.:
quote:
quote:
Originally written by Student of Trinity:
quote:
At first I like the sound of the argument that people are going to buy drugs anyway, so we should recognize the fact, and let the government exert some control over the process to minimize bad side effects, and extract some tax money from it as well, instead of letting criminals get all the profit. Sounds persuasive.

But we could make an exactly analogous proposal about contract killings:

People are going to pay hit men to rub out their enemies, and all the money will go to organized crime, and there are risks to innocent bystanders. So instead, we should legalize murder for hire. If you really want someone dead, you should be able to hire the Marines to send in a trained sniper team. Yada yada yada -- pretty much all the good things you could say about legalizing drugs seem to me to have analogues in this proposal.

Now it sounds to me as though there must be a problem with this form of argument.
Interesting point. But drug use is inherently self-destructive; hiring a hitman is obviously intended first and foremost to destroy someone else.

And as for using the drugs to intentionally harm innocents, the same can be done with a tack hammer, and God knows we haven't done anything about that. In the case of unintentional harms, I'd be for the same kind of regulations against public use we have against, say, cigarettes, where they are applicable.

My point wasn't that buying drugs is like murder, except in being currently illegal but probably always inevitable. I was just criticizing one particular argument, namely the pragmatic appeal to bring something inevitable under control at the apparently small price of legally accepting its inevitability. Essentially my point was that this particular argument is moot: the merits of the legalization need to be established on other grounds.

(My 'yada yada ... all the good things have analogues' remark was supposed to mean 'all pragmatic benefits like raising tax revenue and protecting bystanders', not 'all arguments in favor of legalizing drugs'.)

The grounds you cite, that drug abuse is a crime whose only victim is the perpetrator, might perhaps be sufficient. But this is a different argument from the pragmatic appeal I was criticizing. I just want to disentangle that one particular argument from the others, and take it off the table (unless someone can rebut my critique). I do not at all imagine that this ends the whole discussion.

[ Friday, June 17, 2005 18:40: Message edited by: Student of Trinity ]

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Thuryl, does that mean pot, crack and P? What about steroids or other things like that? It's very general, so I don't know. It isn't very clear actually.

EDIT: Define a substance.

[ Friday, June 17, 2005 18:34: Message edited by: An Upright stranger ]

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I'm tired of the strain and the pain ___ ___ ___ I feel the same, I feel nothing
Nothing is important to me ___ ___ ___ ___ __ And nobody nowhere understands anything
About me and all my dreams lost at sea ___ __ But we’re not the same, we’re different tonight
We’ll make things right, we’ll feel it all tonight _ The indescribable moments of your life tonight
The impossible is possible tonight ___ ____ ___ Believe in me as I believe in you, tonight

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quote:
Originally written by Student of Trinity:

I was just criticizing one particular argument, namely the pragmatic appeal to bring something inevitable under control at the apparently small price of legally accepting its inevitability. Essentially my point was that this particular argument is moot: the merits of the legalization need to be established on other grounds.
Uh, let's try this again. Something will happen either way. If it's illegal, many other associated bad things will happen. If it's legal, those bad things will not happen. I'd chose legality.

If organized murder actually wouldn't increase more than the decrease of collateral damage, we would have to seriously examine the possibility of legalizing murder. The problem is that collateral damage is fairly small in comparison to attempted but failed murders. It's a false analogy.

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I don't see that it is a false analogy: the principle seems exactly the same.

If you don't want a great flood of legalized hits, just set the price high. Let the price slide with income level of buyers, if that makes a difference. In principle there will probably be a pricing scheme for which the total number of murders would be less than it currently is. It still just couldn't be right that anyone, however rarely, could buy the legal right to commit murder with the blessing of the state.

If the analogue of that last sentence does not hold for drugs, then that is the key point, and the putative pragmatic benefits of legalizing drugs are moot in comparison.

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SoT, in case you missed it, my take on the drugs/hitmen thing is further up.

Stranger, I think Alec means full legalisation of every substance listed on Schedule I-V of the Single Convention:

http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/pubs/scheduling.html

After all, considering it's trivially easy to make explosives from chemicals you can purchase without even needing a permit, what justification can there be for restricting access to chemicals that people mostly only harm themselves with?

[ Friday, June 17, 2005 19:01: Message edited by: Thuryl ]

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quote:
Originally written by Student of Trinity:

In principle there will probably be a pricing scheme for which the total number of murders would be less than it currently is. It still just couldn't be right that anyone, however rarely, could buy the legal right to commit murder with the blessing of the state.
However, you would agree that a decrease in the number of deaths would be an advantage, right? It's not a clinching argument, but it's still a single argument in favor. The problem is that legalizing murder creates other problems that outweigh this advantage, not that this would not be an advantage.

That is, the general argumentative form is sound, even though it would not win all discussions by nature of its form.

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It's also worth noting that in the early 20th century, when heroin was available in pharmacies with an average dose costing about as much as a cup of tea, it's not obvious that its availability led to huge social problems.

[ Friday, June 17, 2005 19:22: Message edited by: Thuryl ]

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Well you can harm others with drugs. Driving high etc. But that's all the more reason to have them legal. Get off the back of the crack dealer. They're just trying to make money. For that matter we wouldn't have crack dealers if there was adequate access to a quality controlled supply. The government sells alcohol, Tobacco, Medical weed, why not other stuff. Speaking for B.C. dope isn't going to stop flowing into the US any time. So I'd advise letting off the drug crack down a bit.

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Oh, I agree that making things better would make them better -- that far, yes, the form of the argument is valid. But the argument as used assumes that some net pragmatic benefit would be sufficient grounds for legalizing something. I used to love this argument myself (and I'd still be happy if anyone rebuts my criticism and revives it). Now it seems to me that this ain't necessarily so -- you've first got to establish that a pragmatic calculus is the only relevant issue. And if you do manage to do this, you've essentially won the whole argument already then, anyway, inasmuch as you've shifted the discussion from crime (like murder) to control (like tobacco and alcohol).

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quote:
Originally written by Student of Trinity:

you've first got to establish that a pragmatic calculus is the only relevant issue.
No, not at all. You just have to establish that it is one relevant issue, so that one can then create a list of relevant issues, pros and cons, and consider them. I'm not saying there's a formula, but I'm saying that this should be one of the items of information that ought to be gathered in order to make an intelligent decision.

That is, this doesn't win the argument, but if true, it's one notch in favor.

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We may also look at other things such as gambling. Gambling is very addictive destroying peoples lives and yet that's fine as it brings in money to he government. People loose money to federally sponsored lotteries too. Why then are certain drugs not tolerated? Could they not produce similar funding increases?

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quote:
Originally written by Student of Trinity:

Oh, I agree that making things better would make them better -- that far, yes, the form of the argument is valid. But the argument as used assumes that some net pragmatic benefit would be sufficient grounds for legalizing something. I used to love this argument myself (and I'd still be happy if anyone rebuts my criticism and revives it). Now it seems to me that this ain't necessarily so -- you've first got to establish that a pragmatic calculus is the only relevant issue. And if you do manage to do this, you've essentially won the whole argument already then, anyway, inasmuch as you've shifted the discussion from crime (like murder) to control (like tobacco and alcohol).
I think you're the only one making this distinction, though. I'd be quite happy to legalise and regulate murder if it could be shown that in practice it led to fewer people being killed. In fact, the killing of others is already regulated under limited conditions, precisely because doing so reduces the amount of killing that's going on -- you can kill someone in defence of the life of yourself or others. The fact that we call the legal kind of killing "self-defence" and the illegal kind "murder" is purely a matter of terminology.

If you're going to reply that self-defence doesn't count because it's not the killing of an innocent, keep in mind that many countries also allow necessity as a defence to murder -- if you're on a boat in the middle of the ocean with someone and it's obvious there's only enough food for one of you to get home alive, you're allowed to throw your companion into the ocean, even though he's done nothing wrong. In general, legal philosophy leans heavily toward making just about any action permissible provided that it leads to a better outcome than the alternative.

[ Friday, June 17, 2005 19:29: Message edited by: Thuryl ]

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