Drug Debate Thread for the Rest of Us
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...b10010b...
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written Friday, June 17 2005 17:59
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Since the Great Debate thread was explicitly intended as a debate between two people, if you are not Ash or Alec, please debate the merits or otherwise of drug decriminalisation in THIS thread. -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
Agent
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written Friday, June 17 2005 18:02
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I just don't trust that people buying drugs will use moderation. Therefore the problems they create would cancel out benefits of controlling the sale of drugs. And hey, wouldn't this plan only work if the government did it perfectly? Since when has anyone done something perfectly? The banning method isn't perfect, but offenders are being caught, good things are happening. If these changes were introduced, how long would it take for it to work as well as banning does now? [ Friday, June 17, 2005 18:06: Message edited by: An Upright stranger ] -------------------- I'm tired of the strain and the pain ___ ___ ___ I feel the same, I feel nothing Nothing is important to me ___ ___ ___ ___ __ And nobody nowhere understands anything About me and all my dreams lost at sea ___ __ But we’re not the same, we’re different tonight We’ll make things right, we’ll feel it all tonight _ The indescribable moments of your life tonight The impossible is possible tonight ___ ____ ___ Believe in me as I believe in you, tonight Go All Blacks xtraMSN Rugby _ MuggleNet Posts: 1112 | Registered: Friday, July 19 2002 07:00 |
Off With Their Heads
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written Friday, June 17 2005 18:03
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quote:Marijuana is habit-forming, not physically addictive. Wikipedia, which has everything, spells out the difference more or less effectively here. Shall I take the silence on the facts about increased use due to legalization to be an indication that no one actually knows? I suppose it's not unlikely that no one has conducted rigorous studies of the effects of different forms of legalization, but I'm still a little bit surprised. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
...b10010b...
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written Friday, June 17 2005 18:08
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quote:People who buy drugs already fail to use moderation, partly because the variability in purity of their product prevents them from doing so. Safety of users can be improved with further initiatives such as supervised injection. Legalisation may indeed lead to some increase in drug use, but to determine just how large that increase would be, how about we conduct a survey? If you, the reader of this post, don't use illegal drugs, and the only reason you don't use illegal drugs is because they're illegal, reply to this topic and say so. Let's see what proportion of SW's hundreds of active members fall into that category. Furthermore, your claim that legalisation would work if and only if carried out perfectly (whatever "perfectly" means in this context) is an insubstantiated and rather implausible assertion. [ Friday, June 17, 2005 18:10: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
Agent
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written Friday, June 17 2005 18:11
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Well, I just figured that people who had wanted to use some but couldn't be bothered builing up the contacts required, would walk in and do it once it became as simple as that. EDIT: Um, supervised injection? Do you mean, every single user with be catalogued, with time/date of last dose, and everything this entails? How much will this cost? I don't think those who post on a games message boards would give anything near a fair or true view. [ Friday, June 17, 2005 18:16: Message edited by: An Upright stranger ] -------------------- I'm tired of the strain and the pain ___ ___ ___ I feel the same, I feel nothing Nothing is important to me ___ ___ ___ ___ __ And nobody nowhere understands anything About me and all my dreams lost at sea ___ __ But we’re not the same, we’re different tonight We’ll make things right, we’ll feel it all tonight _ The indescribable moments of your life tonight The impossible is possible tonight ___ ____ ___ Believe in me as I believe in you, tonight Go All Blacks xtraMSN Rugby _ MuggleNet Posts: 1112 | Registered: Friday, July 19 2002 07:00 |
BANNED
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written Friday, June 17 2005 18:11
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"I don't particularly want my rich neighbours to use crack as much as they like, let alone my teachers and lecturers, and definately not my boss at work." That's why most people who come to the job drunk get fired immediately. "Yes, drug money is up to no good, but if the government allowed widespread drug use, than wouldn't hospitals, rehab centres and the acts of control/policing/anti-corruption etc guzzle up the revenues, leaving everything the same as before, but with the added bonus of lots more people high on crack, heroin and P?" Aside from the fact that your woefully lacking knowledge of the market has already been corrected, you missed a few things: A. Most smokers/injectors/(whatever you call people who stick stuff on their eyes) do so casually. B. There is no extra policing for drugs under the provided legislation. All forms of enforcement will merely be juxtaposed with current alcohol legislation. C. You fail to understand the definition of the word "corruption"- which, in this instance, is being used to describe the black markets which government-funded hallucinogen distribution would essentially eliminate. (See, I dunno, the last few pages for a slew of black market arguments.) "What else ... drug use is self destructive. I don't want people in positions of power, authority and responsibility to self destruct, there will be problems." (Already addressed) "Well, at least in NZ, there have been three murderers put in jail recently who were high on P and really don't know what happened. Drug use is self destructive until it changes your behavour, then it becomes harmful to others." If you get super-crazy-drunk and axe a man, then you are charged for murder. Drug use should be no different- what you are providing is an example of murder. If you plan on shooting up on any given evening, it's best to do so in a situation where you stand a reduced chance of doing something destructive. (And for reference, if "P" is referring to PCP, it'd still be illegal according to Alec's plan.) "Finally, long term drug use is bad, negative effects on areas the drugs have contact with. Weed affects brain, lungs etc. Maybe there would be lawsuits similar to those being carried out with cigarettes? Would advertising for these drugs be banned like for cigarettes? Many of these drugs are addictive, so is the government just wanting to get in on some ching-ching while these drug users kill themselves softly?" First off, I find your comparison of hallucinogen usage and feminism to be obscene. (RE: your last sentence.) Second off, if the weed comes with a warning (which would ideally read, "I'm roughly half as deadly as a cigarette and infinitely more pleasurabe"), there can be no lawsuits. Thirdly, assuming they're dealt with in a way that cigarettes are, no- they wouldn't have advertisements. "Would this mean steroids become legal? What about the problems which come with this?" I doubt steroids would become legal (although that's Alec's call, ultimately), but even if they were to become such, any directors of athletic events would merely scan players for steroid usage. (And considering that only athletes would do that sort of crap, I'm not sure what actually changes.) -------------------- 人 た ち を 燃 え る た め に 俺 は か れ ら に 火 を 上 げ る か ら 死 ん だ Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
Off With Their Heads
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written Friday, June 17 2005 18:18
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quote:I think the idea is more to get people clean needles that don't have HIV on them rather than to track everyone who uses injectable drugs. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
...b10010b...
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written Friday, June 17 2005 18:22
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quote:There are good non-legal reasons to avoid using recreational drugs (health, employment, etc). By contrast, there is no compelling reason not to kill someone you sufficiently dislike, other than the fact that you are likely to spend a long time in prison for doing so. Therefore, legalising murder is likely to have a more dramatic effect on the prevalence of murder than legalising drug use will on the prevalence of drug use. (I oversimplify the matter, of course; even in a lawless society, people eventually wise up and work out that murdering people is a bad idea when they have friends who can do the same to you. Still, the threat of starting a vendetta is a rather uglier way of keeping murder down than the rule of law.) -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
Agent
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written Friday, June 17 2005 18:22
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"There is no extra policing for drugs under the provided legislation. All forms of enforcement will merely be juxtaposed with current alcohol legislation." - Where is the provided legislation, so I can have a look? "(And for reference, if "P" is referring to PCP, it'd still be illegal according to Alec's plan.)" - Where is Alec's plan, so I can have alook? "First off, I find your comparison of hallucinogen usage and feminism to be obscene. (RE: your last sentence.)" - What? I'm sorry, I don't know what you're talking about. [ Friday, June 17, 2005 18:24: Message edited by: An Upright stranger ] -------------------- I'm tired of the strain and the pain ___ ___ ___ I feel the same, I feel nothing Nothing is important to me ___ ___ ___ ___ __ And nobody nowhere understands anything About me and all my dreams lost at sea ___ __ But we’re not the same, we’re different tonight We’ll make things right, we’ll feel it all tonight _ The indescribable moments of your life tonight The impossible is possible tonight ___ ____ ___ Believe in me as I believe in you, tonight Go All Blacks xtraMSN Rugby _ MuggleNet Posts: 1112 | Registered: Friday, July 19 2002 07:00 |
Off With Their Heads
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written Friday, June 17 2005 18:24
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You might want to, you know, read the other topic. Alec's first long post there explains it pretty clearly. EDIT: That said, TM's incomprehensible/wrong on a couple of counts. Alec said PCP would be recognized as bad, not illegal. [ Friday, June 17, 2005 18:26: Message edited by: Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
Agent
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written Friday, June 17 2005 18:27
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Yeah, that's what I thought. I haven't seen anything so far that specifies which drugs are in/stay out. -------------------- I'm tired of the strain and the pain ___ ___ ___ I feel the same, I feel nothing Nothing is important to me ___ ___ ___ ___ __ And nobody nowhere understands anything About me and all my dreams lost at sea ___ __ But we’re not the same, we’re different tonight We’ll make things right, we’ll feel it all tonight _ The indescribable moments of your life tonight The impossible is possible tonight ___ ____ ___ Believe in me as I believe in you, tonight Go All Blacks xtraMSN Rugby _ MuggleNet Posts: 1112 | Registered: Friday, July 19 2002 07:00 |
...b10010b...
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written Friday, June 17 2005 18:29
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http://www.ironycentral.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=002543;p=2 quote:I'd say that's pretty clear. -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
BANNED
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written Friday, June 17 2005 18:29
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quote:What, you wanna dance? -------------------- 人 た ち を 燃 え る た め に 俺 は か れ ら に 火 を 上 げ る か ら 死 ん だ Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
Electric Sheep One
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written Friday, June 17 2005 18:31
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Originally written by CSTR.: quote:My point wasn't that buying drugs is like murder, except in being currently illegal but probably always inevitable. I was just criticizing one particular argument, namely the pragmatic appeal to bring something inevitable under control at the apparently small price of legally accepting its inevitability. Essentially my point was that this particular argument is moot: the merits of the legalization need to be established on other grounds. (My 'yada yada ... all the good things have analogues' remark was supposed to mean 'all pragmatic benefits like raising tax revenue and protecting bystanders', not 'all arguments in favor of legalizing drugs'.) The grounds you cite, that drug abuse is a crime whose only victim is the perpetrator, might perhaps be sufficient. But this is a different argument from the pragmatic appeal I was criticizing. I just want to disentangle that one particular argument from the others, and take it off the table (unless someone can rebut my critique). I do not at all imagine that this ends the whole discussion. [ Friday, June 17, 2005 18:40: Message edited by: Student of Trinity ] -------------------- It is not enough to discover how things seem to seem. We must discover how things really seem. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
Agent
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written Friday, June 17 2005 18:33
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Thuryl, does that mean pot, crack and P? What about steroids or other things like that? It's very general, so I don't know. It isn't very clear actually. EDIT: Define a substance. [ Friday, June 17, 2005 18:34: Message edited by: An Upright stranger ] -------------------- I'm tired of the strain and the pain ___ ___ ___ I feel the same, I feel nothing Nothing is important to me ___ ___ ___ ___ __ And nobody nowhere understands anything About me and all my dreams lost at sea ___ __ But we’re not the same, we’re different tonight We’ll make things right, we’ll feel it all tonight _ The indescribable moments of your life tonight The impossible is possible tonight ___ ____ ___ Believe in me as I believe in you, tonight Go All Blacks xtraMSN Rugby _ MuggleNet Posts: 1112 | Registered: Friday, July 19 2002 07:00 |
Off With Their Heads
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written Friday, June 17 2005 18:38
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quote:Uh, let's try this again. Something will happen either way. If it's illegal, many other associated bad things will happen. If it's legal, those bad things will not happen. I'd chose legality. If organized murder actually wouldn't increase more than the decrease of collateral damage, we would have to seriously examine the possibility of legalizing murder. The problem is that collateral damage is fairly small in comparison to attempted but failed murders. It's a false analogy. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
Electric Sheep One
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written Friday, June 17 2005 18:49
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I don't see that it is a false analogy: the principle seems exactly the same. If you don't want a great flood of legalized hits, just set the price high. Let the price slide with income level of buyers, if that makes a difference. In principle there will probably be a pricing scheme for which the total number of murders would be less than it currently is. It still just couldn't be right that anyone, however rarely, could buy the legal right to commit murder with the blessing of the state. If the analogue of that last sentence does not hold for drugs, then that is the key point, and the putative pragmatic benefits of legalizing drugs are moot in comparison. -------------------- It is not enough to discover how things seem to seem. We must discover how things really seem. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
...b10010b...
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written Friday, June 17 2005 18:50
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SoT, in case you missed it, my take on the drugs/hitmen thing is further up. Stranger, I think Alec means full legalisation of every substance listed on Schedule I-V of the Single Convention: http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/pubs/scheduling.html After all, considering it's trivially easy to make explosives from chemicals you can purchase without even needing a permit, what justification can there be for restricting access to chemicals that people mostly only harm themselves with? [ Friday, June 17, 2005 19:01: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
Off With Their Heads
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written Friday, June 17 2005 18:56
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quote:However, you would agree that a decrease in the number of deaths would be an advantage, right? It's not a clinching argument, but it's still a single argument in favor. The problem is that legalizing murder creates other problems that outweigh this advantage, not that this would not be an advantage. That is, the general argumentative form is sound, even though it would not win all discussions by nature of its form. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
...b10010b...
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written Friday, June 17 2005 18:59
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It's also worth noting that in the early 20th century, when heroin was available in pharmacies with an average dose costing about as much as a cup of tea, it's not obvious that its availability led to huge social problems. [ Friday, June 17, 2005 19:22: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
Shaper
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written Friday, June 17 2005 19:02
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Well you can harm others with drugs. Driving high etc. But that's all the more reason to have them legal. Get off the back of the crack dealer. They're just trying to make money. For that matter we wouldn't have crack dealers if there was adequate access to a quality controlled supply. The government sells alcohol, Tobacco, Medical weed, why not other stuff. Speaking for B.C. dope isn't going to stop flowing into the US any time. So I'd advise letting off the drug crack down a bit. -------------------- I stop rubber at 160km/h, five times a week. CANUCKS RESPEK! My Style The Knight Between Posts. Posts: 2395 | Registered: Friday, November 2 2001 08:00 |
Electric Sheep One
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written Friday, June 17 2005 19:05
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Oh, I agree that making things better would make them better -- that far, yes, the form of the argument is valid. But the argument as used assumes that some net pragmatic benefit would be sufficient grounds for legalizing something. I used to love this argument myself (and I'd still be happy if anyone rebuts my criticism and revives it). Now it seems to me that this ain't necessarily so -- you've first got to establish that a pragmatic calculus is the only relevant issue. And if you do manage to do this, you've essentially won the whole argument already then, anyway, inasmuch as you've shifted the discussion from crime (like murder) to control (like tobacco and alcohol). -------------------- It is not enough to discover how things seem to seem. We must discover how things really seem. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
Off With Their Heads
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written Friday, June 17 2005 19:08
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quote:No, not at all. You just have to establish that it is one relevant issue, so that one can then create a list of relevant issues, pros and cons, and consider them. I'm not saying there's a formula, but I'm saying that this should be one of the items of information that ought to be gathered in order to make an intelligent decision. That is, this doesn't win the argument, but if true, it's one notch in favor. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
Shaper
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written Friday, June 17 2005 19:12
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We may also look at other things such as gambling. Gambling is very addictive destroying peoples lives and yet that's fine as it brings in money to he government. People loose money to federally sponsored lotteries too. Why then are certain drugs not tolerated? Could they not produce similar funding increases? -------------------- I stop rubber at 160km/h, five times a week. CANUCKS RESPEK! My Style The Knight Between Posts. Posts: 2395 | Registered: Friday, November 2 2001 08:00 |
...b10010b...
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written Friday, June 17 2005 19:19
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quote:I think you're the only one making this distinction, though. I'd be quite happy to legalise and regulate murder if it could be shown that in practice it led to fewer people being killed. In fact, the killing of others is already regulated under limited conditions, precisely because doing so reduces the amount of killing that's going on -- you can kill someone in defence of the life of yourself or others. The fact that we call the legal kind of killing "self-defence" and the illegal kind "murder" is purely a matter of terminology. If you're going to reply that self-defence doesn't count because it's not the killing of an innocent, keep in mind that many countries also allow necessity as a defence to murder -- if you're on a boat in the middle of the ocean with someone and it's obvious there's only enough food for one of you to get home alive, you're allowed to throw your companion into the ocean, even though he's done nothing wrong. In general, legal philosophy leans heavily toward making just about any action permissible provided that it leads to a better outcome than the alternative. [ Friday, June 17, 2005 19:29: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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