THE GREAT DEBATE, PART III
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| Author | Topic: THE GREAT DEBATE, PART III |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Saturday, June 18 2005 01:10
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Man. Much written here, and I'm sure a number of very good points have been made, but forgive me if I don't read all of it. I only have so much time tonight, and I'd like to get a reply out here. You've been waiting on me long enough. quote:Well, yes. And? I mean, I could as easily say that banning sexual harassment doesn't eliminate that behaviour, and causes massive increases in crime (after all, if it wasn't banned it wouldn't be a crime). So, I'm going for "Agreed, but irrelevant" here. [quote]Prohibition in the United States serves as a good model for what happens when drugs are prohibited for a purely moralistic goal, e.g. "no one should be using them therefore selling, using, or possessing them is illegal". The result of the amendment to the Constitution prohibiting alcohol was the rise of syndicated crime, the haemhorraging of millions of dollars of the economy in corruption and enforcement during a period of national history in which money was deadly tight, etc. Overall, Prohibition wasn't even effective in stamping out alcoholism; alcohol use was prominent during and after the effect of the law itself.[/quote]There is a difference, though. For one thing, alcohol consumption is something that is already firmly entrenched in all layers of our society (certainly here in Australia). Heroin use, on the other hand, is not considered acceptable by most people. I think this is largely on account of the fact that the latter has been illegal for a long time, while the the former has not. Also, alcohol is something of a different case to most drugs. Most drinkers don't drink because they are alcoholic, or even to get drunk. They do it because they like the taste, or to warm themselves up, or because it makes for a good social lubricant. Compare this to tobacco - most consumers are addicted. I absolutely would not support an overnight ban on alcohol ala Prohibition. For that matter, I wouldn't support an overnight ban on tobacco either. These things are still considered a way of life for too many people for a ban to be anything but hopelessly ineffective (much as you describe). I would like to see them illegalized, but that just ain't gonna do any good right now. Maybe in another 20-30 years tobacco will have been marginalized to a point where it could be banned with some sort of success. Alcohol, not in my lifetime. I absolutely oppose legalization of comparable drugs (like pot), because I don't want to see them become as prevalent as drinking/smoking is. This wouldn't happen overnight obviously, no changes in public perception ever do. But having joints legal and freely available in coffee shops (ala the Netherlands) sends the message to people - especially those growing up in this society - that it's an acceptable thing to do. [quote]I believe in full legalization of all currently controlled substances. Distribution should occur only through a thoroughly licensed retailer and in no case to any clients under 21, production will be strictly monitored, a heavy tax will be levied and its revenues will be applied to recovery programs and propaganda, and all substances should be subject to strict supervision by the FDA. While in principle this is certainly not as tough a stand as illegalizing drugs, I do not believe illegalizing drugs is better in anything except principle. Legalization offers benefits which banning cannot, including government revenues, ability to control production and distribution through licensing and taxation, ability to control quality and dosing (thereby eliminating the vast majority of overdoses), and ability to use a major percentage of drug revenues to help addicts recover from drugs.[/quote]I see this as a trade-off. We legalize, and self-destructive substances probably won't be as damaging, on the whole. On the other hand, we'll probably get a lot more people hooked on them and, I think, a lot more damage done overall. Neither situation is perfect, but I think the current policy is better. [quote]In addition, a society with a responsible policy towards legal drugs would recognize the importance of strong aggression against the most physically damaging substances and warning tolerance towards less physically damaging ones. In a banning system, government has no non-hypocritical way to say consuming pot (non-addictive, relatively non-toxic) is more permissible than smoking PCP (extremely addictive, profoundly toxic and with a range of permanent side-effects). This also allows specific drug-based offenses to be held specifically contemptible by law. Selling addictives to a minor, consuming mind-altering drugs before operating heavy machinery, etc. should be held under specific contempt, and there is no way for the government to do this without calling the root of the offense "involving yourself with drugs", where it really should be "misconducting yourself with drugs".[/quote]I'm afraid I don't quite get you here. Just because two things are illegal doesn't mean that there can't be a distinction between them. Speeding is bad, speeding in an unroadworthy vehicle while drunk, legally blind, and without a license is worse. Using drugs is bad, using drugs in a way that could harm others as well as yourself is worse. [quote]My core position holds that in a pragmatic situation, a ban gives the government far less agency to solve the social problems arising from drug use than responsible legalization. I have no statistics at this time, but my position is rooted in good sense and ought to be relatively solid without them.[/quote]Prevention > Cure, and all that. Besides, even within a system where drugs are illegal, it's possible for there to be room for things to help those who are already caught in the addiction cycle - safe injecting rooms, needle dispensers, confidential counselling, etc. [quote]A debate on the basic principle behind legalization would be fascinating, but we are at a critical impasse here and it would be startlingly irrelevant. My contention is that, considering the comparative ability of the government to act in suppressing the social problems caused by drug use between a criminalized system and a legalized system, legalization is the clear winner. Assuming your aim is to help people and not just random tyranny, responsible legalization is just the better answer.[/quote]Well, my aim IS to help people. And while legalized drugs may give the government more tools to fight the problem, I think that it would also exacerbate the problem, to a far greater degree than any help it could provide. [ Saturday, June 18, 2005 01:13: Message edited by: Ash Lael ] -------------------- Sex is easier than love. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Monday, June 20 2005 15:57
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Who put the bump in the bumpity-bump-de-bump? Who was that man? I'd like to shake his hand. He made my baby fall in love with me. -------------------- Sex is easier than love. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 4
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written Tuesday, June 21 2005 10:13
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quote:too random, didn't read -------------------- 人 た ち を 燃 え る た め に 俺 は か れ ら に 火 を 上 げ る か ら 死 ん だ Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Tuesday, June 21 2005 14:07
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Uncultured Philistine. -------------------- Sex is easier than love. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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Triad Mage
Member # 7
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written Wednesday, June 22 2005 05:26
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Overly cultured elitist. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy desperance.net - We're Everywhere ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Friday, June 24 2005 04:14
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Bring Up More Posts. -------------------- Sex is easier than love. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Tuesday, June 28 2005 15:13
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Alec is obviously afraid of either me or of conflict. -------------------- Sex is easier than love. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 3521
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written Tuesday, June 28 2005 16:40
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Perhaps he feels that the debate has run its course. You two have discussed quite a bit, and wasn't that the sole purpose of having a debate in the first place? I mean, I'm sure you were aware at the start of this that neither of you was going to change the other's mind, so the only point of this from the beginning was to flesh out the issue and have an in-depth discussion. -------------------- Stughalf "Delusion arises from anger. The mind is bewildered by delusion. Reasoning is destroyed when the mind is bewildered. One falls down when reasoning is destroyed."- The Bhagavad Gita. Posts: 1798 | Registered: Sunday, October 5 2003 07:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Tuesday, June 28 2005 17:32
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No, we have not discussed very much. I stated my point of view briefly, he replied, I replied to that. That's hardly an in-depth exchange. -------------------- Sex is easier than love. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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Bob's Big Date
Member # 3151
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written Tuesday, June 28 2005 20:28
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This debate has been the victim of unfortunate timing. I pledge that it will continue once I have the temporal ability to fully devote myself to it. Thank you for your patience, and please accept my apologies for my demanding it. -------------------- The biggest, the baddest, and the fattest. Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |