my grang-grandfather died
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Guardian
Member # 3521
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written Thursday, April 28 2005 00:04
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I am a limbo master. -------------------- Stughalf "Delusion arises from anger. The mind is bewildered by delusion. Reasoning is destroyed when the mind is bewildered. One falls down when reasoning is destroyed."- The Bhagavad Gita. Posts: 1798 | Registered: Sunday, October 5 2003 07:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 4
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written Thursday, April 28 2005 03:22
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For reference... Purgatory- A period of purgation (hence the name) prior to being accepted into heaven. If one is in purgatory, one has already been saved- it is a period of repentance where one can realize the breadth of sin committed in this world. Limbo- Abandoned officially in '92. A place where small children (mostly babies) who died without being baptized go. Better than hell and a genuinely decent place, but not heaven. According to Catholic doctrine, aborted foeti would also go here. -------------------- 人 た ち を 燃 え る た め に 俺 は か れ ら に 火 を 上 げ る か ら 死 ん だ Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Thursday, April 28 2005 04:22
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So do the people that were in Limbo before 1992 get grandfathered in, or are they languishing in the Limbo of Limbos? I mean, it's pretty rough when even Limbo goes condo and evicts a bunch of foeti. -------------------- It is not enough to discover how things seem to seem. We must discover how things really seem. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 4784
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written Thursday, April 28 2005 04:44
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quote:By that deffinition I guess you could say I believe in purgatory as well, what with the long line I envision waiting to recount to the Judge everything I have done in my entire life. But I picture everyone waiting through all recounts so we all eventually get to heaven at the same time when all the judgements have been made. I realize though that this is pure speculation. I am probably most offended by the Catholic Church's stance that purgatory is fact when there is no Biblical proof for it. Now if they were to say "This is what we think, but the Bible doesn't say" I'd be less hard on the religion. -------------------- Forever Always on Past the End tracihedlund@charter.net[/url] TrueSite for Blades - Blades Walkthroughs Pixle Profusion - BoE Graphics Archive Posts: 563 | Registered: Tuesday, July 27 2004 07:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Thursday, April 28 2005 13:33
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They do say just that. Only they consider that such sayings of the Church are also revelation, and authoritative. -------------------- It is not enough to discover how things seem to seem. We must discover how things really seem. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Thursday, April 28 2005 13:37
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quote:Well, although Limbo was mentioned in the Catechism until that time, it never actually made it into doctrine, so you could say the Church has plausible deniability. quote:Catholics usually cite 1 Corinthians 3:15 as a justification for the doctrine of purgatory. -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 4445
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written Thursday, April 28 2005 15:56
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I like purgatory because it implies the possibility of post-mortem repentance and, thusly, that eternal damnation is a choice, not a sentence. In that light, God seems much more benevolent and just. Hence, my preference for Catholicism, although, I admit that I would probably be Calvinist, Mormon, or Shinto if my immediate family were such. quote:I rather imagine that process to be instantaneous. [ Thursday, April 28, 2005 15:59: Message edited by: PoD person ] Posts: 293 | Registered: Saturday, May 29 2004 07:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 4
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written Thursday, April 28 2005 16:19
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PoD, you'd do well to read about Karl Rahner and the concept of the Anonymous Christian. (And of course, there's also things like co-celebration that were no-goes before Rahner as well...) The fact that Ratzinger tried to silence Rahner whilst in the Holy Office is one of many reasons to fear what this man will do. -------------------- 人 た ち を 燃 え る た め に 俺 は か れ ら に 火 を 上 げ る か ら 死 ん だ Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Master
Member # 4614
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written Thursday, April 28 2005 17:31
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I still think the sinners go to hell and those who have had their sins forgiven go to heaven. Why would God want to specify intermediate destinys for people who "kind-of" believe in God? -------------------- -ben4808 For those who love to spam: CSM Forums RIFQ Posts: 3360 | Registered: Friday, June 25 2004 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 5437
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written Thursday, April 28 2005 17:35
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quote:Edit: Assuming the person didn't do anything terrible, why wouldn't God what to give a final chance to repent? [ Thursday, April 28, 2005 17:57: Message edited by: Dolphin ] -------------------- Nena Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 4445
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written Thursday, April 28 2005 19:32
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Hmm. From what I find on this Rahner, I like him. Have you, perhaps, read any Tillich? I've read a few summaries and criticisms, but none of his actual works; anyways, I also like what appears to be his gist. Posts: 293 | Registered: Saturday, May 29 2004 07:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 4
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written Thursday, April 28 2005 19:41
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Ben- according to Rahner, he doesn't specify intermediate destinies. PoD- No, haven't read Tilling. -------------------- 人 た ち を 燃 え る た め に 俺 は か れ ら に 火 を 上 げ る か ら 死 ん だ Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Master
Member # 4614
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written Saturday, April 30 2005 13:06
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quote:Nothing like putting something off your whole life. :/ -------------------- -ben4808 For those who love to spam: CSM Forums RIFQ Posts: 3360 | Registered: Friday, June 25 2004 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 5437
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written Saturday, April 30 2005 13:16
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quote:Last minute or not, they still repented. Is that not the same as deathbed repentance? Though one is while living and the other after death. The person is still asking to be forgiven while in a dire state. [ Saturday, April 30, 2005 13:19: Message edited by: Dolphin ] -------------------- Nena Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 4784
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written Sunday, May 1 2005 09:49
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Last minute repentance and forgiveness does work just like the theif on the cross next to Jesus, but there has to be a genuine change of heart. God knows whether or not you 'mean it' and if you don't mean it, it doesn't count. There's also always the possibility that a person's death will be so sudden that they have no chance to make the planned last minute confession. imho Most who go through life with this plan won't have a change of heart when they follow through, but still anything is possible. I don't think there will be a chance of repentance after death if you've already heard the gospel. For those who haven't heard... ? Maybe. -------------------- Forever Always on Past the End tracihedlund@charter.net[/url] TrueSite for Blades - Blades Walkthroughs Pixle Profusion - BoE Graphics Archive Posts: 563 | Registered: Tuesday, July 27 2004 07:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Sunday, May 1 2005 19:12
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Okay, my understanding of Purgatory is mainly from Dante; but what it amounts to is that Purgatory is not about repentance but about penance. Souls steeped in sin, although saved by faith, require sanctification before they can enter Heaven. The idea is that this process is bound to be painful. Interestingly, this issue was taken very seriously by Bertrand Russell, who used it as an argument against Christianity. IIRC, he confessed that his character was bad enough that he was really no fit subject for eternal felicity. Yet he argued that any change that would make him into a good enough person to survive Heaven would effectively annihilate the Bertrand Russell he was, just as thoroughly as if there were no life after death at all. I think Russell was onto something. The concept of becoming the best possible version of myself, as opposed to someone else entirely, is quite nontrivial. -------------------- It is not enough to discover how things seem to seem. We must discover how things really seem. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
